gefw
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Post by gefw on Mar 4, 2024 17:43:14 GMT
*I know it may not reach the Uxbridge branch in full at all and this is to remain with the current signalling for the foreseeable. The signalling is being changed on the Uxbridge branch, new lineside signals for use by Piccadilly trains and CBTC overlaid. Yes I believe the current 4LM scope is that all the Met will be upgraded to the Thales Seltrac system (ie providing the signaling interlocking & centralised control) with it providing CBTC interface/protection to the S stock trains and also controlling colour light signals & trainstops for non equipped trains (eg Chilterns & Piccs). What I don't know it whether the (obsolete) track circuits are being replaced. I think A60 may have got confused with the shared areas at the west end of the District which I believe have been removed from scope of CBTC provision/signalling replacement - To be addressed as part of Picc Line signalling strategy ? |
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gefw
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Post by gefw on Mar 4, 2024 18:03:27 GMT
With the 4LM soon to come to the Met (I know we are still some way off an official completion and service frequency upgrade), do we know if there is a draft or provisional timetable (in tph) expected for the Met line once the new system is fully rolled out?* If there is not one, what is the general expectation from both those in the know and from those simply speculating?
However there will undoubtedly be timetable changes to reflect the improved run times (circa 10%) when CBTC is expanded otherwise there will be a lot of examples of trains being held to time in platforms |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 5, 2024 5:21:29 GMT
The S stock fleet and new signalling are intended to provide 32tph around the central area and 28tph north of Baker Street. Before Covid this was planned from 2023, but with subsequent lower demand and tighter funding, service upgrades have been postponed. Whether the faster running expected on full commissioning will enable economies in train operation and staffing, or whether trains released will enable a small improvement in service has yet to be seen. The originally planned service upgrades may be some time away.
The intention was to have peak services of 8tph on Circle, Hammersmith & City, Ealing, Richmond, Edgware Road/Wimbledon, Wimbledon to City, with 16tph east of Barking to Upminster. The Uxbridge branch would have seen 12tph peaks, Watford 10tph, Amersham 4tph and Chesham 2tph.
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Post by A60stock on Mar 5, 2024 9:41:49 GMT
The S stock fleet and new signalling are intended to provide 32tph around the central area and 28tph north of Baker Street. Before Covid this was planned from 2023, but with subsequent lower demand and tighter funding, service upgrades have been postponed. Whether the faster running expected on full commissioning will enable economies in train operation and staffing, or whether trains released will enable a small improvement in service has yet to be seen. The originally planned service upgrades may be some time away. The intention was to have peak services of 8tph on Circle, Hammersmith & City, Ealing, Richmond, Edgware Road/Wimbledon, Wimbledon to City, with 16tph east of Barking to Upminster. The Uxbridge branch would have seen 12tph peaks, Watford 10tph, Amersham 4tph and Chesham 2tph. Thanks for this level of detail. Are the Amersham's and Chesham's Fast and some of the Watfords Semi-fast? Off peak, I am guessing things will remain the same as they are right now. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 5, 2024 10:34:09 GMT
The S stock fleet and new signalling are intended to provide 32tph around the central area and 28tph north of Baker Street. Before Covid this was planned from 2023, but with subsequent lower demand and tighter funding, service upgrades have been postponed. Whether the faster running expected on full commissioning will enable economies in train operation and staffing, or whether trains released will enable a small improvement in service has yet to be seen. The originally planned service upgrades may be some time away. The intention was to have peak services of 8tph on Circle, Hammersmith & City, Ealing, Richmond, Edgware Road/Wimbledon, Wimbledon to City, with 16tph east of Barking to Upminster. The Uxbridge branch would have seen 12tph peaks, Watford 10tph, Amersham 4tph and Chesham 2tph. Thanks for this level of detail. Are the Amersham's and Chesham's Fast and some of the Watfords Semi-fast? Off peak, I am guessing things will remain the same as they are right now. My original source didn't specify those things. There was a table in Underground News maybe 2020? |
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
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Post by gefw on Apr 10, 2024 7:21:43 GMT
I believe there is a closure this weekend to continue the testing/assurance of SMA8 - hope this all goes well and the findings are positive to enable further progression.
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Post by A60stock on Apr 10, 2024 10:15:51 GMT
What's the current* target date for SM8 going live?
*Yes, I know it is likely to change
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 10, 2024 21:14:49 GMT
Several dates are under consideration, ranging from later in 2024 through to the first half of 2025. The outcome of this weekend will help influence the decision making.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 19, 2024 1:45:12 GMT
FoI reply published this week reveals, in passing, completion of resignalling to Uxbridge is now expected in early 2026: link |
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Post by t697 on Apr 21, 2024 8:21:07 GMT
I suppose early 2026 can be stretched to mean up to June 30th! With SMA8 not until early 2025 things will need to move along pretty well after that to achieve early '26 for the Uxbridge branch since the rest of the Met line is due first.
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roman80
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Post by roman80 on Apr 21, 2024 15:56:15 GMT
What is the current guess for the western end of the district to be done?
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Post by youngmale1967 on Apr 21, 2024 21:09:44 GMT
Thales P220 has SMA 10/12 middle of August 2025.
I was recently told any certain would be after SMA 8 going, now likely to be Jan 2025, still unclear if Parsons Green will be remodelled first that would put SMA 12 (East Putney) part much later.
No news on Wimbledon part but unlikely anything will be done until after Network Rail signalling project is done, there projects are equally unsure of dates.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 22, 2024 16:39:51 GMT
There's a P220 programme now? I do need to keep up!
I would expect it's unlikely for Parsons Green to be remodelled first as the remodelling requires the demolition of the East IMR - my expectation is SMA10/12 first, then mods.
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
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Post by gefw on Apr 23, 2024 7:49:57 GMT
Presumably this programmme/plan predated the recent on site testing & experience.
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Post by gigabit on Apr 25, 2024 17:14:23 GMT
They're now planning to do the signalling all the way to Wimbledon? That's new isn't it?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 25, 2024 17:24:48 GMT
There is no plan at the current time to extend CBTC beyond East Putney The post from youngmale1967 makes this clear: No news on Wimbledon part but unlikely anything will be done until after Network Rail signalling project is done, there projects are equally unsure of dates. i.e. Any potential expansion of CBTC beyond East Putney will be dependent on the eventual replacement of the Network Rail signalling on this section - there is no project to do this yet. |
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Post by gigabit on Apr 25, 2024 17:52:25 GMT
How would the two systems work together if the Network Rail signalling gets replaced, or will they run a TfL one on top of the Network Rail one?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 25, 2024 18:05:03 GMT
That will depend on how Network Rail choose to resignal the line.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 25, 2024 20:55:11 GMT
If the Picc ever gets funding to resignal, the intention is to take over the Ealing branch from the District, whose trains would then be diverted between the other two branches. There is some doubt about the current signalling coping with 20tph to Wimbledon in that case.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Apr 25, 2024 21:04:41 GMT
What happens to the service between North Ealing & Rayners Lane?
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Post by f73a on Apr 25, 2024 21:14:35 GMT
And Chiswick Park?
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Post by jimbo on Apr 25, 2024 21:28:52 GMT
The Picc will cover those. I think the upgrade could cover a 50% service increase through the central area and perhaps to Heathrow, but the Rayner's Lane branch traffic does not justify that, so if the extra trains cover the Ealing branch service, the District could boost service to its other branches, the Wimbledon one long needing help. The Chelsea-Hackney line (now Crossrail 2) was once proposed to take over the Wimbledon and Hainault branches for that reason.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 25, 2024 21:38:39 GMT
That will depend on how Network Rail choose to resignal the line. I personally don't think Network Rail will resignal it - the line is owned by London Underground. The deciding factors will be if the lines out of Waterloo are resignalled - how will the new signalling fringe with the existing signalling on the LU owned section, and what happens when Wimbledon PSB is only controlling East Putney to Wimbledon bay roads? Will London Underground want to pay Network Rail for the ongoing costs of staffing Wimbledon panel, and maintaining the signalling? Will Network Rail still want to do it, even if LU wants to keep paying for it? If not, what alternatives are there? These are all questions that need answering when setting the long term strategy. |
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
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Post by gefw on Apr 26, 2024 9:34:05 GMT
Presumably the SSL signalling system is based on a fairly standard Thales hardware and software operationg system & architecture (both Wayside & VOBC) - does anyone know if this core kit is used on the Thales offerings for the Railtrack "digital signalling" program. "hot swopping" to ETCS radio based comms may well make the cost on the lower density outer "branches" much more attractive - All those WIFI posts & kit must have cost a fortune (when several radio options already there)
I believe the Siemens Trainguard kit running CTBC on the Eliz line core could be modified to run the train on the railtrack ECTS to Heathrow (just add a radio module) !
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Post by gigabit on Apr 26, 2024 10:31:38 GMT
That will depend on how Network Rail choose to resignal the line. I personally don't think Network Rail will resignal it - the line is owned by London Underground. The deciding factors will be if the lines out of Waterloo are resignalled - how will the new signalling fringe with the existing signalling on the LU owned section, and what happens when Wimbledon PSB is only controlling East Putney to Wimbledon bay roads? Will London Underground want to pay Network Rail for the ongoing costs of staffing Wimbledon panel, and maintaining the signalling? Will Network Rail still want to do it, even if LU wants to keep paying for it? If not, what alternatives are there? These are all questions that need answering when setting the long term strategy. Is it a requirement that national rail trains need to be diverted via East Putney in the long term or will this not be required? |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Apr 26, 2024 11:48:47 GMT
The Picc will cover those. I think the upgrade could cover a 50% service increase through the central area and perhaps to Heathrow, but the Rayner's Lane branch traffic does not justify that, so if the extra trains cover the Ealing branch service, the District could boost service to its other branches, the Wimbledon one long needing help. The Chelsea-Hackney line (now Crossrail 2) was once proposed to take over the Wimbledon and Hainault branches for that reason. Will there be enough stock for three western branches on the Picc? |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 26, 2024 12:06:01 GMT
Can't be done without money for Picc resignalling, and that includes up to 18 more trains for frequency increase. Current order will only cover 30tph. [TfL Programmes and Investment Committee meeting papers for 5 October 2023 on Piccadilly Line Upgrade] |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 26, 2024 15:02:48 GMT
How many District line trains per hour go to Ealing Broadway? Would splitting the service as described above really be worthwhile?
As for more trains going to Wimbledon, now that the inner circle has been converted why cant more trains from Wimbledon start running to Edgware Road 'right now'?
An increase in frequency on the Earls Court - Edgware Road route sorely is needed too - the platforms at High St Ken - Paddington are often somewhat crowded and a train every 6 or so minutes is noticeably less frequent than some other inner-city routes.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 26, 2024 16:03:46 GMT
How many District line trains per hour go to Ealing Broadway? Currently 6tph to Ealing Broadway There are only two centre platforms at Edgware Road, District use pfm.2 (currently every 10min); Circle use pfm.3 (currently every 10mins). Both trains remain stationary for 7min during off-peak, 5min with stepping-back peak. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 26, 2024 18:53:50 GMT
CBTC plan is for 32tph in central area, so 8tph Circle, H&City, District to Edgware Road, Ealing etc. But currently no budget for service increases. It was decided that curtailed resignalling to the west of District Line would not prevent such an upgrade. If Picc takes on Ealing, District would still work empty to/from depot, with 12tph to Richmond and 20tph to Wimbledon combined both routes.
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