rincew1nd
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Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 10, 2017 17:30:19 GMT
At least they kind of got the stock right in their illustration. |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Aug 10, 2017 17:32:31 GMT
Should we be concerned that the A Stock seems to have opened it's doors next to a stretch of gravel and grass?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 10, 2017 17:46:20 GMT
Should we be concerned that the A Stock seems to have opened it's doors next to a stretch of gravel and grass? Possibly,. but the Councillor did write in his letter about the economic benefits this scheme would bring to Watford & beyond, if the paper is to be believed. So maybe this is 'beyond' whence the A Stock is parked? |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 10, 2017 19:06:06 GMT
More drivel from local politicians. What on earth can Lord Adonis do? The MLE isn't on their (National Infrastructure Commission) list of schemes anyway (AFAIK) and he's on a non stop crusade about the pay of University Vice Chancellors and teaching staff at the monent. I don't think Watford and a short stretch of tube line is going to be enough to distract from his current preoccupations. I find it incredible that local partners have spent £100m - what on? |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 11, 2017 2:51:54 GMT
What on, indeed. Whatever happens to the project now, I do hope someone outside of the gravy trains does a review into it and upturns a few stones. If this is how public works go, on average, then we're doomed.
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Post by trt on Aug 14, 2017 11:04:52 GMT
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Post by burkey on Aug 24, 2017 22:04:32 GMT
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 25, 2017 12:24:29 GMT
From above:-
"Richard Harrington, Member of Parliament for Watford, has secured a meeting with London Mayor Sadiq Khan, along with David Gauke MP, to put forward his idea that will make sure the Metropolitan Line Extension goes ahead.
The Watford MP will meet with Sadiq Khan on 13th October 2017 where he will ask the London Mayor to get on with the job of delivering the Met Line Extension. To make sure that happens, Mr Harrington will suggest that TfL take over the management of the track from Network Rail as a way forward. This would guarantee significant funding for the project by generating private investment, whilst also saving the taxpayer money.
In 2015, Richard Harrington, Member of Parliament for Watford, secured Government funding for the Met Line Extension, which looks to connect the Metropolitan Line up to several stations in Watford. The £284 million project is under the management of Transport for London, but London Mayor Sadiq Khan is yet to deliver on his promises, despite significant investment from the Department for Transport and local stakeholders.
Richard Harrington met privately with Chris Grayling MP to put forward his suggestion that TfL manage the track and Mr Grayling thinks it’s a great idea that will bring in private investment and progress the project.
The Watford MP said:
“I just want the London Mayor to get on with the job of delivering the project and TfL taking over responsibility of the track is a clear practical solution. This will generate significant investment in the project, at no further cost to the public purse!
I see no reason why the London Mayor would not agree to this as he only recently published a report supporting more private investment in the railways.
I have raised this with Chris Grayling MP and he thinks it’s a great idea. I look forward to discussing this with Mayor Sadiq Khan in October and finally moving forward with the project.”"
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 25, 2017 12:37:57 GMT
Note repetition of the phrase 'get on with the job' - thank goodness that they've all managed to agree on what linguistic phrase to use to score political points.
What exactly is he on about though? Transfering the Watford DC lines to TfLs infrastructure?
If Chris Grayling is in favour of it theres bound to be a massive downside for TfL or Khan (or users of public transport) given their working relationship.
I do wish with regards to clarification he'd get on with the job[/b]
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 25, 2017 13:42:29 GMT
How will TfL taking over responsibility for the track generate investment, significant or otherwise?
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Post by phil on Aug 25, 2017 14:46:26 GMT
From above:- "Richard Harrington, Member of Parliament for Watford, has secured a meeting with London Mayor Sadiq Khan, along with David Gauke MP, to put forward his idea that will make sure the Metropolitan Line Extension goes ahead. The Watford MP will meet with Sadiq Khan on 13th October 2017 where he will ask the London Mayor to get on with the job of delivering the Met Line Extension. To make sure that happens, Mr Harrington will suggest that TfL take over the management of the track from Network Rail as a way forward. This would guarantee significant funding for the project by generating private investment, whilst also saving the taxpayer money. In 2015, Richard Harrington, Member of Parliament for Watford, secured Government funding for the Met Line Extension, which looks to connect the Metropolitan Line up to several stations in Watford. The £284 million project is under the management of Transport for London, but London Mayor Sadiq Khan is yet to deliver on his promises, despite significant investment from the Department for Transport and local stakeholders. Richard Harrington met privately with Chris Grayling MP to put forward his suggestion that TfL manage the track and Mr Grayling thinks it’s a great idea that will bring in private investment and progress the project. The Watford MP said: “I just want the London Mayor to get on with the job of delivering the project and TfL taking over responsibility of the track is a clear practical solution. This will generate significant investment in the project, at no further cost to the public purse! I see no reason why the London Mayor would not agree to this as he only recently published a report supporting more private investment in the railways. I have raised this with Chris Grayling MP and he thinks it’s a great idea. I look forward to discussing this with Mayor Sadiq Khan in October and finally moving forward with the project.”" A Translation:- "Just so my constituents know I haven't been sitting round doing nothing over the summer, I have had a chat to Mr Grayling and bitched about that nasty Mayor going back on his predecessors promises. Also I have picked up that there is a new East West Railway being built somewhere by a Private company so why can't TfL do the same rather than getting the obstructionist Underground to build it". "What do you mean TfL and the Underground are one and the same???" |
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Post by croxleyn on Aug 25, 2017 17:26:01 GMT
The facts of financial reality... With the zonal fare system, each passenger is unlikely to add more than £1.50 to a journey made from an existing station (i.e. what TFL would relinquish).
I'm taking a wild guess at footfall, but it can't be more than a few thousand each day. So, let's say that with returns, that's £5000 a day at most, which would barely cover the staff costs of this extension. OK, you would re-deploy the Watford Met station staff to save a little.
So where would one find an investor willing to front up the hundreds of millions for an almost zero return, at least from the farebox?
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
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Post by Ben on Aug 25, 2017 18:05:31 GMT
Well its a con, isn't it? Nobody wants to foot the additional costs, now its been properly scoped, as every public body is still reeling from the effects of austerity and budget cuts. So everyone's trying to pass the buck, along with people trying to point the finger and enhance their own public standing too.
The press statement, as made, makes very little sense. It uses emotive language like , and but its actual message is vague. His idea won't make sure it goes ahead; its a collection of words he suspects people that support him politically might like to hear. I don't know how involved he is with finance in public transport, or infrastructure planning and delivery, but it is perplexing how the cream of transport planners involved with this project over the past 20 years haven't come up with his suggestion before, if indeed it will guarantee the thing happens.
What track? Why would they want to? What assets and liabilities are being transferred? How much are they worth? How much would such a transfer cost? Who foots that bill?
Who's guaranteeing it, the national government? If they're underwriting it why not just finance it directly?
A PFI? A PPP? Sounds promising! Whats that mechanisms track record like with big infrastructure works, has such a scheme been tried on the railways before, how did it go? Will the taxpayer save short term, but bleed through their nose long term?
///
He's just wasting letters and cyberspace. But sadly that's no guarantee now that this wont have some twisted and unnecessary impact on the project.
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 25, 2017 18:12:46 GMT
The facts of financial reality... With the zonal fare system, each passenger is unlikely to add more than £1.50 to a journey made from an existing station (i.e. what TFL would relinquish). I'm taking a wild guess at footfall, but it can't be more than a few thousand each day. So, let's say that with returns, that's £5000 a day at most, which would barely cover the staff costs of this extension. OK, you would re-deploy the Watford Met station staff to save a little. So where would one find an investor willing to front up the hundreds of millions for an almost zero return, at least from the farebox? Think the investment could come from Buckinghamshire. Really useful link to Milton Keynes with new links to Oxford and Bedford. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 25, 2017 18:57:38 GMT
How will TfL taking over responsibility for the track generate investment, significant or otherwise? Well precisely. I have never read such a load of self serving political puffery and nonsense in a long while. Mr Harrington clearly has zero clue about railways and the likelihood of track ownership having any ability to generate "investment". |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 25, 2017 20:10:25 GMT
How will TfL taking over responsibility for the track generate investment, significant or otherwise? Well precisely. I have never read such a load of self serving political puffery and nonsense in a long while. Mr Harrington clearly has zero clue about railways and the likelihood of track ownership having any ability to generate "investment". Well, that does surprise me-a politician of whatever political persuasion knowing zipp about railways. Must be a first? Meanwhile, this thread has reached p16 in less than 9 months, which is exponential compared to its' subject matter. Who do you think should be running the railways? |
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Post by trt on Aug 25, 2017 21:14:43 GMT
How will TfL taking over responsibility for the track generate investment, significant or otherwise? Well precisely. I have never read such a load of self serving political puffery and nonsense in a long while. Mr Harrington clearly has zero clue about railways and the likelihood of track ownership having any ability to generate "investment". It's Richard Harrington. Controversial that the pub, The Verulam, closed (I knew a guy who worked there during WW2 as a military policeman for the RAF, it had a bomb cellar they used to hold copies of documents from nearby Fighter Command at Bentley Priory, all very hush hush), and flats were built there instead. By Harrington's Property. Self-serving smug so and so who takes any opportunity to bandstand. It was he who started threatening London Midland with the loss of their franchise if they didn't do more commuter vote winning stuff that he wanted. Do you sense that I don't really like the guy? |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 26, 2017 0:49:38 GMT
Well precisely. I have never read such a load of self serving political puffery and nonsense in a long while. Mr Harrington clearly has zero clue about railways and the likelihood of track ownership having any ability to generate "investment". Well, that does surprise me-a politician of whatever political persuasion knowing zipp about railways. Must be a first? Meanwhile, this thread has reached p16 in less than 9 months, which is exponential compared to its' subject matter. Who do you think should be running the railways? I take your point but Mr Harrington has this ludicrous habit of presenting himself as the sole saviour / solver of any issue or problem. Even some of the most bonkers and deluded MPs of all parties don't go quite as far as does. They're just generally loathesome whereas Harrington seems to have that extra aspect of self delusion that usually ensures a meeting with a padded cell or medical expertise. I think TrT's post sums things up nicely and clearly he's local to Watford so has more "exposure" to the chap than the rest of us.  As for running the railways - well, shock horror, how about professional qualified railwaymen? That would be a good start.  We can't escape the fact that railways and politics have always co-existed and always will in a complex economy like ours. Unfortunately idiots, ideologues and loud mouths get into positions of power rather too often and can wreak havoc during their periods in office. Unfortunately the traits than can make an excellent MP are similar to those of destructive ego maniac MPs. It's all down to the personal motivation of the MP and the willingness of the electorate to tolerate (or not) any aberrant behaviour. We don't have "exams" for MPs on their areas of knowledge or offices of state that they hold. Would be interesting if they did have to pass a test but sometimes having a "nerd" as a Minister or SoS doesn't help either. Anyone who is stupid enough (who me?  ) to follow Lord Adonis on Twitter will see what happens when nerd politicians go bat-sh*t crazy. His current rants about Universities and Vice Chancellors have made me seriously question his powers of logic, reasoning and the extent to which he ever thought through the consequences of the decisions he took with respect to the privatisation and marketisation of education in this country. Makes me wonder what he did when at the DfT that hasn't yet emerged as a disaster. Remember this is the man who rode on London buses for 1 week and was a self declared expert on buses at the end. He also tweets about the success of the Night Tube when making journeys on trains that are in the daytime operating hours or on lines (e.g. Sub Surface) which have no night tube. He clearly thinks he's "bigging up" the current Mayor whereas anyone with a clue knows he's got his facts wrong. And to be fair to Boris (*what* am I saying???) the Night Tube was an idea from his Mayoralty - he just couldn't get it introduced when he was at City Hall. So we can't do without politicians because railways spend public money and there are difficult policy / spending choices to make but I do sometimes wish we could do without them. |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 26, 2017 15:56:42 GMT
snoggle
'Ere, that Lord Adonis was briefly my boss at DWP, I'll have you know!! Not, however, one who stood out from the crowd for whatever reason-you could always tell from their emails to all staff, the usual generic grammar & style that meant they'd contributed zilch to the contents thereof except their profile and (digital) signature.
As for the hon. Member, let's just say attempting to pressurize the Mayor of London may not be the smartest move for an MP who has precisely no constituents able to vote in the next Mayoral elections for our beloved City, but as you say, thinking things through, not only in transport, clearly doesn't always sit well with being a politician.
Perhaps we ought to suggest to someone/anyone in high places if they want this link, start crowdfunding and start the pot off by putting say £1k in for every post on this thread & on the original Croxley Link-a-GoGo thread(45 pages-worth) & see where we go.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 26, 2017 17:00:01 GMT
snoggle 'Ere, that Lord Adonis was briefly my boss at DWP, I'll have you know!! Not, however, one who stood out from the crowd for whatever reason-you could always tell from their emails to all staff, the usual generic grammar & style that meant they'd contributed zilch to the contents thereof except their profile and (digital) signature. As for the hon. Member, let's just say attempting to pressurize the Mayor of London may not be the smartest move for an MP who has precisely no constituents able to vote in the next Mayoral elections for our beloved City, but as you say, thinking things through, not only in transport, clearly doesn't always sit well with being a politician. Perhaps we ought to suggest to someone/anyone in high places if they want this link, start crowdfunding and start the pot off by putting say £1k in for every post on this thread & on the original Croxley Link-a-GoGo thread(45 pages-worth) & see where we go. Well there are only really two outcomes - the scheme is cancelled or the parties reach a compromise to allow it to proceed. It all depends on the relative political priorities for the Mayor and Government. I don't see the local Watford MP as being a key player despite his protestations. The main concern now is that each extra month that ticks past the bill gets bigger and the completion date stretches ever further into the future. |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 26, 2017 17:47:51 GMT
I would suspect that now we are into the grandstanding phase, with a good dose of blame throwing included, that the project is now dead.
The press release is devoid of any reasoned facts, but it sets up the idea that Watford MP and Grayling desperately want this to work and are trying to come up with ideas, but wicked old Khan doesn't and is somehow being an obstructionist. Ergo if it fails, it fails because of him.
I offer the fact that Grayling presumably wouldn't sign off on his name and reaction being revealed unless it portrayed him in a positive light, and shifted blame to a different party (as in person, though rosette colour is equally likely).
Get a journalist to dig a bit, file a few FOI's, see if there's any substance beyond this paragraph of dross.
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Post by scheduler on Aug 26, 2017 18:02:08 GMT
The completion of the link would possibly give a reduced feed of traffic down the Overground service to Euston and the London Midland service to Euston, by providing alternative destinations for these passengers from Watford, thus allowing London passengers (those closer into the centre) to make use of the "vacated seats". It really is very nearsighted to claim that this project only helps Watford.
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Post by silenthunter on Aug 26, 2017 20:15:42 GMT
"Vacated seats?" If you're going into London from Watford, you'd take LM or Overground...
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Post by croxleyn on Aug 27, 2017 7:36:06 GMT
If you're starting along those lines, what's going to happen when West Midlands Trains Ltd take over LM? Or, looking further ahead, when HS2 starts running, with all the extra goods trains that'll get freed WCML paths?
There are suggestions of linking the WCML to the new Old Oak Common station to take the strain off Euston during the inevitable works disruption, but that's never likely to happen due to the tight radii needed to branch off the Cricklewood to Acton lines, or bulldozing of Kensal Green cemetery.
So, if we are to have many Euston blockades, as per this weekend, could Watford Junction be a useful terminus, with the MLE making the final link to London? That would be far preferable to Rail Replacement coaches from Hemel Hempstead to Stanmore!
UPDATE:
I gather that on the morning of Friday 15th Sept, there was a major fire north of Harrow & Wealdstone, seriously affecting all Euston services (from another forum). Once again, the MLE would have provided a through service for the WCML. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 27, 2017 8:24:56 GMT
I would suspect that now we are into the grandstanding phase, with a good dose of blame throwing included, that the project is now dead. The press release is devoid of any reasoned facts, but it sets up the idea that Watford MP and Grayling desperately want this to work and are trying to come up with ideas, but wicked old Khan doesn't and is somehow being an obstructionist. Ergo if it fails, it fails because of him. I offer the fact that Grayling presumably wouldn't sign off on his name and reaction being revealed unless it portrayed him in a positive light, and shifted blame to a different party (as in person, though rosette colour is equally likely). Get a journalist to dig a bit, file a few FOI's, see if there's any substance beyond this paragraph of dross. Of course Harrington is going to spin it as a Labour failure. The fact that what was handed to TfL to take forward wasn't correctly defined or estimated is conveniently ignored because it would make Harrington look less than marvellous. He is "personally responsible" for the scheme after all. Obviously I agree with you that the political spin machine is in operation. However Mr Khan can pretty easily rebut any challenge by saying :- 1. the scheme as handed over wasn't properly defined and costed. 2. the previous Tory Mayor left the current Mayoralty with an open ended financial commitment that was unacceptable and unprecedented. 3. the government have cut TfL funding and left an inadequate financial position. 4. the growth fund is not designed to fund schemes that largely benefit areas outside of Greater London. Grayling can respond to some of those points but there is fault with several parties and I think everyone, if they were honest, knows that. Being optimistic (who me? ) that might, if people were so minded, give a way forward to a solution. Adopting a "grandstanding" position and chucking rocks will most likely lead to adandonment of the scheme. |
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 27, 2017 22:07:00 GMT
People who live near to Watford Met or use this station for other reasons might even cheer were the scheme to fail.
Simon
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Post by croxleyn on Aug 28, 2017 8:35:25 GMT
Benefits to Croxley Residents: few. Possible use is to Watford Junction for northbound WCML. There's a reasonable bus service to Watford (& WFJ), without the steep stair climbs at each end or longer walks, but the tube might be a little cheaper (for those without bus passes!).
Detriments to C.R: Reduction of the semi-fast service in the rush hours: there won't be enough stock to run these extra services - TFL at a local liaison meet would only say that the standard (15minute) pattern would remain, and denied that the original proposals were for two extra S-stock, to achieve what we have at the moment. Swamping of the new Croxley Danes secondary school with pupils from outside the area. Closing of the nursery at Sea cadets whilst major sewer diversion is carried out for the viaduct footings - this will probably kill the business entirely. Noise of the trains crossing viaduct and the new points near Baldwins Lane. A tremendous amount of road disruption at the viaduct site.
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Post by geoffc on Aug 29, 2017 13:02:07 GMT
From purely personal view I'm all in favour of the MLX - I have friends in the Northwood area and live a couple of stops north of Watford Junction on the WCML -the journey currently achieved by a walk through Cassiobury Park (pleasant in good weather, not so pleasant when raining) or the #8 bus (slow and expensive) . I think the root cause of the debacle is Herts CC's original scoping - on a sliding scale from over optimistic forecasting outside their usual field of expertise through to a wilful lowballing to get the project off the ground. I think it incumbent on them to close the gap.
I appreciate my meagre custom won't swing the argument but there are several groups who might benefit.
- car commuters from Amersham, Chesham and the like travelling to their offices along the main business drag , Clarendon Road (soon to be expanded by the TJX European HQ complex by Watford Junction). My understanding is planning permission is only given to build a portion of the car parking an office block would need to give every likely car commuter a space - deliberately to force commuters out of their cars. Nothing wrong with that environmental aim but relieving morning congestion in this area needs more than one approach.
- there will be a smaller commuter group from the WCML north and south of Watford travelling to the Croxley Business Park.
- Watford INTU shopping centre is being massively expanded - with more shops and additional leisure facilities. Metropolitan line users ( Amersham , Chesham , Northwood , Pinner , Harrow ) could all leave the car at home and travel to Watford High Street. There will be more employment in that area as a result as well.
- lastly West Watford inhabitants ( Wippendell Road, Tolpits Lane , Vicarage Lane ) will get a station within a moderate walk. Those there without a car would welcome that - finding an on-street parking spot roundabouts must be a nightmare so I suspect car ownership here is below the norm.
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Post by trt on Sept 19, 2017 16:19:23 GMT
Harrington's spouting off again...
In an email littered with pictures of A stock and a gurning MP.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 19, 2017 19:19:23 GMT
Harrington's spouting off again... In an email littered with pictures of A stock and a gurning MP. Anything tell you it's party conference time? Words fail me, pity The Rt Hon Member can't say the same! |
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We can't escape the fact that railways and politics have always co-existed and always will in a complex economy like ours. Unfortunately idiots, ideologues and loud mouths get into positions of power rather too often and can wreak havoc during their periods in office. Unfortunately the traits than can make an excellent MP are similar to those of destructive ego maniac MPs. It's all down to the personal motivation of the MP and the willingness of the electorate to tolerate (or not) any aberrant behaviour. We don't have "exams" for MPs on their areas of knowledge or offices of state that they hold. Would be interesting if they did have to pass a test but sometimes having a "nerd" as a Minister or SoS doesn't help either. 
) to follow Lord Adonis on Twitter will see what happens when nerd politicians go bat-sh*t crazy. His current rants about Universities and Vice Chancellors have made me seriously question his powers of logic, reasoning and the extent to which he ever thought through the consequences of the decisions he took with respect to the privatisation and marketisation of education in this country. Makes me wonder what he did when at the DfT that hasn't yet emerged as a disaster. Remember this is the man who rode on London buses for 1 week and was a self declared expert on buses at the end. He also tweets about the success of the Night Tube when making journeys on trains that are in the daytime operating hours or on lines (e.g. Sub Surface) which have no night tube. He clearly thinks he's "bigging up" the current Mayor whereas anyone with a clue knows he's got his facts wrong. And to be fair to Boris (*what* am I saying???) the Night Tube was an idea from his Mayoralty - he just couldn't get it introduced when he was at City Hall. So we can't do without politicians because railways spend public money and there are difficult policy / spending choices to make but I do sometimes wish we could do without them.
