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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2016 8:26:59 GMT
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 13, 2016 9:49:27 GMT
Isn't this because it's a Hertfordshire Council project rather than a TfL one?
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Post by toby on Dec 13, 2016 9:55:48 GMT
Maybe it doesn't count as the vision for the future because the project is underway? Same could be said for the NLE but could be they have different standards for something in zones 1 and 9.
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Post by crusty54 on Dec 13, 2016 9:57:57 GMT
Isn't this because it's a Hertfordshire Council project rather than a TfL one? believe this is the case
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Post by silenthunter on Dec 13, 2016 10:38:26 GMT
Isn't this because it's a Hertfordshire Council project rather than a TfL one? believe this is the case Apparently TfL have control over it now and major work hasn't begun at all. This needs serious looking into by the papers.
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Post by trt on Dec 13, 2016 11:07:12 GMT
Herts CC have given over control to TfL. This is worrying news. The bridge on Thomas Sawyer Way crosses the line of the track, indeed there are steels there which have been filled in with loose dirt to protect them as construction traffic moves around.
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Post by alpinejohn on Dec 13, 2016 12:02:49 GMT
I am sure this is correct, and I am not really surprised.
To finance the new Mayor's "fares freeze" commitment, capital projects were always going to be at risk. Now the secret is out, I guess some sort of official line will eventually emerge that the project has "not been cancelled" and its simply been "reprioritised" (or some similar soundbite).
Let's face it Watford Junction already benefits from a choice of rail services, and it is not in London, so the Mayor does not really care too much about the impact of cancelling it. I guess the extra S stock unit will still be delivered, if nothing else it will provide the Met with some extra resilience to cover units undergoing maintenance or upgrades.
My gut feeling is the looming huge capital demands for fleet replacements and new signalling systems which cannot be deferred indefinitely, will see this project on hold until well after 2050.
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Post by theblackferret on Dec 13, 2016 15:55:52 GMT
Don't think there's anything in this.
First off, it's not TfL financed at source, so why do Londoners (the 'shareholders' in any London Mayor's report) need to know about it? It's not even in London.
Second, the viaduct is indeed a major work, but it's also above ground and this is the wettest part of the British year on a line which has had more troubles than most with landslips, etc. Would it be really surprising if the major structural works did not begin until at least April, even if just on the off-chance that embankment & land-settlement can be reassessed then?
Which would also give Herts CC wriggle room to find money for it in a new financial year, if it, as the major contributor, needed such. And I am not stating that is the case, just pointing out this is how local government sometimes has to work, regardless of political colour.
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Post by silenthunter on Dec 13, 2016 16:09:03 GMT
Don't think there's anything in this. First off, it's not TfL financed at source, so why do Londoners (the 'shareholders' in any London Mayor's report) need to know about it? It's not even in London. Second, the viaduct is indeed a major work, but it's also above ground and this is the wettest part of the British year on a line which has had more troubles than most with landslips, etc. Would it be really surprising if the major structural works did not begin until at least April, even if just on the off-chance that embankment & land-settlement can be reassessed then? Which would also give Herts CC wriggle room to find money for it in a new financial year, if it, as the major contributor, needed such. And I am not stating that is the case, just pointing out this is how local government sometimes has to work, regardless of political colour. It's an extension of the London Underground network, to be used by people commuting into London. If this has indeed gone, however, there's an obvious reason for it going - no votes for Sadiq Khan in this one, unlike the other schemes.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 13, 2016 16:18:17 GMT
I've read the DG article. I've also gone back to the last paper that went to the TfL Board.
While I understand how DG has reached the conclusion he has I think he is being a tad premature. A few comments.
1. TfL are only funding about £46m of the total cost. £16m of that comes from the £200m growth fund which has separate funding status. The business plan says the Growth Fund has not been fully spent anyway.
2. DfT are providing the bulk of the money. They would have to sanction any cancellation. They and the Treasury have said nothing. Furthermore Watford BC and HCC (also funding a small part of the bill) have said nothing.
3. If the Mayor had acted capriciously on this I rather feel his "new best friend" (not!) Mr Chris Grayling would have been publicly scathing about the Mayor's actions.
4. We know from the last published Project report that TfL had moved reporting of the Croxley Link within the overall scope of the "4 lines modernisation" project.
5. We know TfL are responsible for cost overruns on the Croxley Link. Is it not entirely sensible of TfL / LU to take pause now and stop any costly contracts they have inherited from HCC and then look to put something far better in place that is more realistically priced and programmed with a better allocation of risk? Far better to spend a bit of time now knocking things into shape with better plans and programmes than be landed with a bill that could be unaffordable come 2021.
6. There have been no Mayoral Decisions on this project from the Mayor that have instructed TfL to stop work. One would be needed to reverse the two MDs that Boris Johnson issued in his last year in office in respect of this project.
7. The local Watford MP, who we know personally manages every single improvement in his constituency (given his press releases), has also said nothing. If the Mayor had "done the dirty" I imagine the MP would have marched on City Hall by now. Nothing on his website - I've just checked.
I may well be 100% wrong and DG may be 100% correct but let's not panic until we get something definitive. Given the increased "hub bub" caused by DG's article I imagine something will emerge fairly soon.
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Post by melikepie on Dec 13, 2016 18:20:29 GMT
I sent an email earlier today. They said that they have design and enabling work, due spring next year. After a lot of jargon they said they are hoping to update the project by New Year.
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Post by trt on Dec 16, 2016 14:16:40 GMT
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Post by steveb on Dec 16, 2016 19:34:56 GMT
.....a funny thought crossed my mind over this, was it some sort of revenge for Chris Grayling's clumsy letter re Tfl running more London suburban lines....?
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Post by banana99 on Dec 17, 2016 2:31:05 GMT
Having read DG's piece, he has the Mayor "bang to rights" IMHO. There is no way it would not go unmentioned from one edition to the next. A great piece of detective work.
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Post by metrailway on Dec 17, 2016 23:47:56 GMT
My first post here for sometime... Although the link makes sense from a transport planning viewpoint, at it's current budget the link sadly does not make political or financial sense at the moment. The £284.4m agreed budget is apparently not sufficient to fund the link according to the Government on the 13/12/16 (see Here) so TfL will have to put more money in the kitty to bridge the funding gap. According to LR, the cost of the project is expected to rise to £350m. £350m for a link which is only 3 miles long! Even at it's agreed budget of £284.4m, the Croxley link would be as expensive on a £/mile measure as High Speed 1. As mentioned by others above, funding the shortfall provides little electoral benefit for the Mayor, particularly if it potentially removes funding for other projects/policies in London. I suspect the only way this project would go-ahead is if costs are pruned significantly. I doubt having single track on the branch is feasible so the only major capital saving I can envisage is Cassiobridge not being built and keeping Watford Met open instead.
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 18, 2016 5:23:55 GMT
I'd love to see a costs breakdown to see where the money is supposed to be going. That said, raw materials are the most vulnerable parts of any UK project to currency exchange rates, and the pound's hammering since the summer won't have helped. Coupled with the quantitative easing by the bank having the net effect of devaluing the existing budget we may have some hints as to how the costs have risen so dramatically.
Still, infrastructure spending is the ideal place to be spending that new money to stoke the economy, so perhaps an argument can be made that this is still the sort of shovel-ready project the government should be putting money into...
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Post by xercesfobe on Dec 18, 2016 10:27:03 GMT
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Post by melikepie on Dec 18, 2016 10:42:20 GMT
How exactly are you going to fit 200 people into that small a carriage?
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Post by xercesfobe on Dec 18, 2016 10:45:35 GMT
I am afraid that is my secret!
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Post by christopher125 on Dec 20, 2016 21:07:53 GMT
Isn't it due to be signalled conventionally, with ATO later? There's an obvious saving to be had there if so.
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Post by metrailway on Dec 22, 2016 20:20:24 GMT
I'd love to see a costs breakdown to see where the money is supposed to be going. That said, raw materials are the most vulnerable parts of any UK project to currency exchange rates, and the pound's hammering since the summer won't have helped. Coupled with the quantitative easing by the bank having the net effect of devaluing the existing budget we may have some hints as to how the costs have risen so dramatically. Still, infrastructure spending is the ideal place to be spending that new money to stoke the economy, so perhaps an argument can be made that this is still the sort of shovel-ready project the government should be putting money into... I doubt the depreciation of the pound would have had a massive impact on the cost - as I understand it both Network Rail and London Underground tend to source the vast majority of materials from within the UK. I suspect what has caused the link to be costly is the interface between NR and LU. Different electrification systems (LU 4th rail and NR Bonded 3rd rail) and different signalling systems (conventional LU, conventional NR, LU ATO) etc would add complexity compared to a bog standard diesel line. A quick back of the fag packet calculation using the £350m figure indicates that the BCR for the link is less than 1. The BCR for this scheme was 2.61 in 2011. Assuming the benefits have risen in line with inflation, the BCR would now be 0.54.
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 22, 2016 22:56:53 GMT
Ultimately, unless we have suddenly discovered iron ore mines in this country, at best all of the steel required is going to have to have been made from imported ore, which means buying it in another currency. Those costs will have been passed on as higher prices for the end-product - the steel.
You're probably right about the complexity increasing costs, but I can't believe for a moment that this could have come as a surprise. That there would be an interface between 4th and 3rd rail and LU and NR signalling at Watford High St. Junction would have been obvious from day 1.
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Post by philthetube on Dec 23, 2016 2:39:39 GMT
I don't imagine the power issues are a big problem, the Bakerloo switch systems with no problems.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 23, 2016 7:10:16 GMT
Ultimately, unless we have suddenly discovered iron ore mines in this country,..... The rails are only a small part of the cost of the project, and the raw material to make them even less. And according to Network Rail, 96% of the rails used by them are manufactured in Scunthorpe You're probably right about the complexity increasing costs, but I can't believe for a moment that this could have come as a surprise. That there would be an interface between 4th and 3rd rail and LU and NR signalling at Watford High St. Junction would have been obvious from day 1. Between 1970 and 1982 Watford High Street to Junction did operate 3rd and 4th rail trains together. And the restoration of Bakerloo between Stonebridge Park and Harrow & Wealdstone in 1984 seemed to be relatively straightforward- albeit after a gap of only two years rather than nearly forty. Signalling would be more of a problem though.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Dec 23, 2016 8:28:14 GMT
And according to Network Rail, 96% of the rails used by them are manufactured in Scunthorpe. Indeed they are. Scunthorpe steel is very highly regarded by the rail industry for its track manufacturing here and all over the world. It's one of the main reasons the works is still operational here and long may it continue.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 23, 2016 10:23:13 GMT
Ultimately, unless we have suddenly discovered iron ore mines in this country,..... And according to Network Rail, 96% of the rails used by them are manufactured in Scunthorpe Yes, but the iron ore isn't. However, as you said, the raw material for the rails is not likely to be a significant proportion of the cost.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 23, 2016 11:06:40 GMT
rails are manufactured in Scunthorpe Yes, but the iron ore isn't. No more it isn't, but Scunthorpe's steel works are where they are because of the local geology. However, the good quality ore is all mined out now. (Are there any iron ore mines left anywhere in the UK?) The legacy of having pioneered the industrial revolution - we also now import nearly all our coal as well, but at least iron and steel can be recycled. Scunthorpe only started producing rails ten years ago, when Corus closed its 130-year old Workington plant. (Apparently the dimensions of the site of the Workington plant, hemmed in between the sea and - ironically - the railway, were too small to produce rails of the lengths now required by the industry)
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Post by nickf on Dec 24, 2016 9:40:36 GMT
Yes, but the iron ore isn't. No more it isn't, but Scunthorpe's steel works are where they are because of the local geology. However, the good quality ore is all mined out now. (Are there any iron ore mines left anywhere in the UK?) The legacy of having pioneered the industrial revolution - we also now import nearly all our coal as well, but at least iron and steel can be recycled. Scunthorpe only started producing rails ten years ago, when Corus closed its 130-year old Workington plant. (Apparently the dimensions of the site of the Workington plant, hemmed in between the sea and - ironically - the railway, were too small to produce rails of the lengths now required by the industry) I remember reading in a book about Ian Allan's early life that at one point he had to inspect rails produced at Workington for quality. I imagine that must have been quite monotonous.
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Post by metrailway on Dec 24, 2016 17:16:00 GMT
Ultimately, unless we have suddenly discovered iron ore mines in this country, at best all of the steel required is going to have to have been made from imported ore, which means buying it in another currency. Those costs will have been passed on as higher prices for the end-product - the steel. You're probably right about the complexity increasing costs, but I can't believe for a moment that this could have come as a surprise. That there would be an interface between 4th and 3rd rail and LU and NR signalling at Watford High St. Junction would have been obvious from day 1. Around 25% of the cost of production of UK steel is from abroad, the rest is incurred within the UK. Although the LU/NR interface would have been clear from day 1, it is unlikely that the cost implications would have been clear to Herts CC or to its consultants considering there has not been a new electrified link between LU and NR since the war AFAIK.
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 25, 2016 23:53:52 GMT
I should probably point out there is far more steel required for this project other than the rails themselves - the viaduct is likely to have significant amounts of reinforcing steel in the concrete structures, the stations are more likely than not going to have steel structural frames, and then all the other gubbins like signal poles, cable brackets, etc. all adds up.
The conductor rails are aluminium these days, aren't they? That will have to be imported, then. The copper for the wiring? Probably imported too.
Obviously recycled materials won't have to be imported, but scrap prices are going to reflect the prices of raw materials, otherwise it wouldn't be economic to scrap anything.
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