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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 15, 2017 7:57:03 GMT
Whilst to some extent I share a mild annoyance with the use of the incorrect (not inappropriate) stock picture in the paper, we do have to realise that to most of the paper's readers, it's just "another train with a red front". They neither know nor care what the differences are and neither it seems does the paper. We'll just have to live with it........ Anyway, back on topic please!
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Post by trt on Mar 15, 2017 9:16:21 GMT
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Post by trt on Mar 15, 2017 17:16:30 GMT
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Post by alpinejohn on Mar 15, 2017 17:18:11 GMT
Pretty much the same story has now appeared in the Standard but with a quote from the Mayor's office (its outside London) which rather confirms they are washing their hands of this project. Meantime the Chancellor's recent Budget has inadvertently lost a heap of expected NI contributions so I rather doubt the Treasury will magically be finding another £50m for Croxley. Together it rather confirms the project is once again dead in the water - well at least for the next electoral cycle.
So what are the lessons? I am sure others have spotted that one aspect of the British political cycle is the rather wasteful feast/famine nature of central government readiness so spend on capital projects. Hence in the run up to almost any General Election it seems Chancellors can suddenly announce they are able to fund all manner of projects - only for many to be kicked into the distant future, dropped entirely or severely pruned once the election period is over. Like it or not - such is political reality so LUL need to factor this into their planning skills.
Inherently LUL need to look for ways to better scope projects both discretely and at minimal cost, and also work out how to concertina a project timescale to ensure that most if not all of the most costly elements are immediately ready to go - putting spades on the ground the moment that predictable supply of spare (electoral bribes) money becomes available.
For Croxley LUL need a signed off design with detailed planning permission and lined up a contactor(s) to supply all the big stuff especially that bridge in weeks not years. Sadly all manner of time consuming enabling work (diverting services) had not been started or indeed funded by Herts CC - despite their constituents being the prime beneficiary. The nature of "windfall" projects is they need to be completed in a very narrow window of opportunity or risk being put on the back burner. Inherently for Croxley to ever happen, Herts CC need to work with the LUL project team to ensure they have a clear run at delivering the project on time and budget whenever the Chancellor suddenly finds a heap of cash down the back of the sofa in the run up to the next General Election.
Inherently if a project gets off the blocks quickly, it can become too politically and financially expensive to cancel, so it will happen.
Unfortunately for Croxley the project was a long way from firm contracts being signed let alone spades on the ground or actual bridge spans being manufactured and delivered. Given the current unhelpful political stand-off between the Mayor and the Transport Minister, Croxley has unfortunately become a convenient political battle ground for finger pointing and political points scoring. Even once the protaganist's have moved to new roles, the ill feeling now surrounding this project, could delay what could be a really worthwhile project for many years to come. Indeed I am now tempted to place a fiver with William Hills that Watford Junction Station will not see any Met Line services before 2050.
Hey ho politics and common sense are rare bed-fellows.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Mar 15, 2017 17:20:53 GMT
If it is indeed cancelled what will happen to the additional S7+1?
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 1,316
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Post by castlebar on Mar 15, 2017 17:29:12 GMT
Every project has its prospects enormously enhanced if at least part of it straddles a marginal parliamentary constituency
or. as in the case of the Humber Bridge, you are keen not to make a previously safe seat marginal, by reneging on a promise
NOTE, The Lib Dims still have a majority but not overall control of nearby "Three Rivers" local authority, where I believe there are some local elections coming up in May!!
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Post by snoggle on Mar 15, 2017 17:59:14 GMT
Pretty much the same story has now appeared in the Standard but with a quote from the Mayor's office (its outside London) which rather confirms they are washing their hands of this project. Meantime the Chancellor's recent Budget has inadvertently lost a heap of expected NI contributions so I rather doubt the Treasury will magically be finding another £50m for Croxley. Together it rather confirms the project is once again dead in the water - well at least for the next electoral cycle. So what are the lessons? I am sure others have spotted that one aspect of the British political cycle is the rather wasteful feast/famine nature of central government readiness so spend on capital projects. Hence in the run up to almost any General Election it seems Chancellors can suddenly announce they are able to fund all manner of projects - only for many to be kicked into the distant future, dropped entirely or severely pruned once the election period is over. Like it or not - such is political reality so LUL need to factor this into their planning skills. Inherently LUL need to look for ways to better scope projects both discretely and at minimal cost, and also work out how to concertina a project timescale to ensure that most if not all of the most costly elements are immediately ready to go - putting spades on the ground the moment that predictable supply of spare (electoral bribes) money becomes available. For Croxley LUL need a signed off design with detailed planning permission and lined up a contactor(s) to supply all the big stuff especially that bridge in weeks not years. Sadly all manner of time consuming enabling work (diverting services) had not been started or indeed funded by Herts CC - despite their constituents being the prime beneficiary. The nature of "windfall" projects is they need to be completed in a very narrow window of opportunity or risk being put on the back burner. Inherently for Croxley to ever happen, Herts CC need to work with the LUL project team to ensure they have a clear run at delivering the project on time and budget whenever the Chancellor suddenly finds a heap of cash down the back of the sofa in the run up to the next General Election. Inherently if a project gets off the blocks quickly, it can become too politically and financially expensive to cancel, so it will happen. Unfortunately for Croxley the project was a long way from firm contracts being signed let alone spades on the ground or actual bridge spans being manufactured and delivered. Given the current unhelpful political stand-off between the Mayor and the Transport Minister, Croxley has unfortunately become a convenient political battle ground for finger pointing and political points scoring. Even once the protaganist's have moved to new roles, the ill feeling now surrounding this project, could delay what could be a really worthwhile project for many years to come. Indeed I am now tempted to place a fiver with William Hills that Watford Junction Station will not see any Met Line services before 2050. Hey ho politics and common sense are rare bed-fellows. Why are you seemingly suggesting any of this is down to LU? It was never LU's scheme. Previously LU were fully indemnified for all of their costs - a paper went to the TfL Board to that effect many years ago. The fact things weren't designed, estimated, funded or much else is not their fault. The previous Mayor concocted a deal with the Chancellor to dump this project (and all ongoing liabilities and risks) on TfL / LU when he knew he would not be around to deal with any of the consequences, good or bad. The reason this project was not "ready to go" is down to other parties. If you were being handed an open ended financial liability you would naturally want to take pause and work out what you think the bill might be and if your piggy bank had enough money in it. Electoral considerations in Watford at the last General Election overrode this crucial step because Bozza and George wanted to give Watford a little prezzie with a blue bow on it. TfL are subject to Mayoral Direction and Bozza *directed* TfL to allocate monies and take on the risk. If TfL had had any real say in the matter it would never have happened. There is no point saying people should be depressing timescales and getting bridges fabricated in a fortnight. Things take a natural amount of time and works typically have to follow in a logical sequence - especially on a railway where good quality, functional infrastructure is key to effective ongoing performance and keeping maintenance costs down in future. If this project is "dead in the water" then let's hope someone has the good grace to kill it off properly. If Herts and Watford want the scheme they can fund it or they can go and prise open the Chancellor's money box. I doubt they will because they don't have the ability to raise any more money locally. This should not be left hanging round TfL's neck as it is not a London scheme. I'm less convinced this is part of the "spat" between the Mayor and Mr Grayling but it does, of course, highlight a rather contradictory stance from Horseferry Road. He won't devolve National Rail services to the Mayor but is quite happy to leave a Hertfordshire capital investment scheme with the Mayor to complete and carry the financial can. Not a very sensible state of affairs but hey that's politics for you.
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Mar 15, 2017 20:33:26 GMT
Can there be any financial sponsor if the one of the stations was renamed to Watford Stadium instead?
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 15, 2017 21:36:55 GMT
The irony of this is that Watford Met ended up in such a comparatively poor location because somebody in the 1920's didn't want their precious Cassio Park dug up to accommodate a more logical extension.
Any prizes for guessing who somebody was?
Sponsorship-well, perhaps someone else other than Belting John has a few bob spare and has good local connections?
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Post by silenthunter on Mar 15, 2017 22:19:13 GMT
If it is indeed cancelled what will happen to the additional S7+1? Don't you mean S8? I'd imagine it would be used with the regular stock on the Met.
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Post by domh245 on Mar 15, 2017 22:25:44 GMT
If it is indeed cancelled what will happen to the additional S7+1? I can't remember if it has already been ordered/delivered - anyone have the details?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 22:27:48 GMT
If it is indeed cancelled what will happen to the additional S7+1? Don't you mean S8? I'd imagine it would be used with the regular stock on the Met. No it actually is (was?) going to be an S7+1
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 15, 2017 22:39:27 GMT
Technically it's an S7... and two -1+1 (if we want to be really pedantic about it).
A new S7 (21567/67) was built to replace 21327/8, which will remain as an S7+1 and be transferred to the Metropolitan line. 21323/4 will remain as an S7+1 until ATC fitment is complete on the S8 stock, and will then revert to S7 configuration. Additionally, two further M2 cars (note, not M2Ds) have been built to replace 25384 (in 21323/4) and 25386 (21327) to allow those trains (the S7-1s) to enter service, which they now are.
At the end of this magic merry go round of trains there will be 58 S8s, 133 S7s, 1 S7+1 and one spare M2D car.
Confused? Probably...
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Mar 15, 2017 23:38:51 GMT
Technically it's an S7... and two -1+1 (if we want to be really pedantic about it). A new S7 (21567/67) was built to replace 21327/8, which will remain as an S7+1 and be transferred to the Metropolitan line. 21323/4 will remain as an S7+1 until ATC fitment is complete on the S8 stock, and will then revert to S7 configuration. Additionally, two further M2 cars (note, not M2Ds) have been built to replace 25384 (in 21323/4) and 25386 (21327) to allow those trains (the S7-1s) to enter service, which they now are. At the end of this magic merry go round of trains there will be 58 S8s, 133 S7s, 1 S7+1 and one spare M2D car. Confused? Probably... So do we presume 25384 will end up being the spare car?
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 15, 2017 23:41:04 GMT
Technically it's an S7... and two -1+1 (if we want to be really pedantic about it). A new S7 (21567/67) was built to replace 21327/8, which will remain as an S7+1 and be transferred to the Metropolitan line. 21323/4 will remain as an S7+1 until ATC fitment is complete on the S8 stock, and will then revert to S7 configuration. Additionally, two further M2 cars (note, not M2Ds) have been built to replace 25384 (in 21323/4) and 25386 (21327) to allow those trains (the S7-1s) to enter service, which they now are. At the end of this magic merry go round of trains there will be 58 S8s, 133 S7s, 1 S7+1 and one spare M2D car. Confused? Probably... So do we presume 25384 will end up being the spare car? That would be logical, but this is the Underground!
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 15, 2017 23:58:27 GMT
At the end of this magic merry go round of trains there will be 58 S8s, 133 S7s, 1 S7+1 and one spare M2D car. Confused? Probably... Reminds me of this scene from Yes, Minister: Can they all carry passengers?
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Mar 16, 2017 1:00:04 GMT
So do we presume 25384 will end up being the spare car? That would be logical, but this is the Underground! Well of course, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how things pan out. Presumably the trains could be reformed back to their proper formations (although would there be any actual benefit in doing this?), left alone, or left alone but renumbered to match to the original numbering system.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 16, 2017 1:27:41 GMT
That would be logical, but this is the Underground! Well of course, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how things pan out. Presumably the trains could be reformed back to their proper formations (although would there be any actual benefit in doing this?), left alone, or left alone but renumbered to match to the original numbering system. The only benefit would be having two additional de-icing trains for the C, D & H, as originally intended, and less 'half' a de-icer for the Met (the S7+1 would retain one M2D car, its "own"). If Croxley goes ahead I would imagine an additional de-icer would be useful for the added flexibility, although likewise for the C, D & H anyway. Somebody who is paid far more than me to worry about these matters has obviously decided though that the de-icers can be spared! The two replacement cars are numbered as they would always have been for their respective units, just as a 'normal' M2 (23xxx) rather than an M2D (25xxx). Long term, the only one 'out of sync' will be the singular S7+1 - and as it's one car, and it's an 'oddball' train, it's probably best to just leave it (Imo!). I'm starting to confuse myself now...
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
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Post by DWS on Mar 16, 2017 6:38:23 GMT
Can some one explain why the D Stock rats can not be put to more use outside the leaf fall season, and be used as de-icer units in the winter season ? I know this may be off topic .
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 16, 2017 7:42:02 GMT
The only benefit would be having two additional de-icing trains for the C, D & H, as originally intended, and less 'half' a de-icer for the Met (the S7+1 would retain one M2D car, its "own"). Why "half" a de-icer? I thought deicing units had just one M2D car.
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Post by trt on Mar 16, 2017 10:58:28 GMT
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Post by silenthunter on Mar 16, 2017 22:49:45 GMT
Can some one explain why the D Stock rats can not be put to more use outside the leaf fall season, and be used as de-icer units in the winter season ? I know this may be off topic . What's a D Stock rat? It's not a rodent, I assume.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 16, 2017 23:06:27 GMT
RAT = rail adhesion train, or 'sandite'.
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Post by philthetube on Mar 17, 2017 10:47:42 GMT
Can some one explain why the D Stock rats can not be put to more use outside the leaf fall season, and be used as de-icer units in the winter season ? I know this may be off topic . There is no real need, there are around S stocks to do the job, (only four are normally used at night) and to use the D stock would require D stock qualified to be available all winter. In extreme weather additional de-icing can be provided by transplant? (I think) who have equipment which can be used, powered by 2 loco's. (Very off topic)
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Post by philthetube on Mar 17, 2017 10:56:02 GMT
I would love to see the revenue projections and to know how much of a basket case the Croxley link is from a financial viewpoint. I suspect that the Watford branch, north of Harrow probably currently costs a mint to operate. Turn it into a line with a commuter base at each end and it would not surprise me if commuter revenues went up by a third. Leisure/shopping journeys would also increase. Watford High Street station is probably better located for shoppers than any other station on the met.
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Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,758
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Post by Chris M on Mar 17, 2017 11:21:46 GMT
I think at this point the main issue is not return on investment, but the cost of the initial investment and the inability and/or unwillingness of whomever to borrow money against the future returns - my understanding is that Herts county council don't have the legal powers to do that and (without getting political) this is not something that seems likely to change in the short term.
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 17, 2017 12:16:04 GMT
There is also scope to run additional services via the north curve from Amersham and beyond.
I suspect TfL will try to get contractors to re-quote on the new type of fixed price contract they now prefer. They state the budget & scope and the contractor outlines what they will provide for the money.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 17, 2017 13:11:18 GMT
I suspect that the Watford branch, north of Harrow probably currently costs a mint to operate. Turn it into a line with a commuter base at each end and it would not surprise me if commuter revenues went up by a third. A third of not-very-much revenue is still a lot less than "a mint" though. Even if revenues do improve, would they do so by enough to pay the extra costs not only of building the thing, but also running an extra station (net), additional operating complications at Watford (particularly the junction at High Street and the interaction between the LO and LU signalling systems), the extra train mileage, etc? There may also be revenue lost as some passengers from Metropolitan Line stations will find it easier and cheaper to travel to Watford Junction to catch WCML trains (or to St Albans) rather than via Euston Sq or KX St Pancras. The Aylesbury/Amersham to Watford idea might have legs. If run as an NR (Chiltern) service it could be cheaper (no electrification, shorter trains - and therefore platforms). Harrow/Wembley etc already have direct services to Watford Junction on LO (and indeed LM). It would be interesting to know how many user of the Watford branch currently travel from the Amersham/Rickmansworth direction and change at Moor Park, who would benefit from a direct service - and conversely how many travel from the Harrow/Pinner direction and would have to change at Rickmansworth if such a service replaced the existing one. Cheaper still would be to build a new basic station on the Met where it crosses the canal, and reopen the LNWR line on the extant trackbed up to where the widening of Ascot Road has severed it, and advertise the five minute walk between them - about the same as at Hackney - as an interchange.
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Post by trt on Mar 17, 2017 13:38:10 GMT
I would love to see the revenue projections and to know how much of a basket case the Croxley link is from a financial viewpoint. I suspect that the Watford branch, north of Harrow probably currently costs a mint to operate. Turn it into a line with a commuter base at each end and it would not surprise me if commuter revenues went up by a third. Leisure/shopping journeys would also increase. Watford High Street station is probably better located for shoppers than any other station on the met. HOTH?
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Post by philthetube on Mar 17, 2017 15:35:24 GMT
I suspect that the Watford branch, north of Harrow probably currently costs a mint to operate. Turn it into a line with a commuter base at each end and it would not surprise me if commuter revenues went up by a third. A third of not-very-much revenue is still a lot less than "a mint" though. Even if revenues do improve, would they do so by enough to pay the extra costs not only of building the thing, but also running an extra station (net), additional operating complications at Watford (particularly the junction at High Street and the interaction between the LO and LU signalling systems), the extra train mileage, etc? There may also be revenue lost as some passengers from Metropolitan Line stations will find it easier and cheaper to travel to Watford Junction to catch WCML trains (or to St Albans) rather than via Euston Sq or KX St Pancras. The Aylesbury/Amersham to Watford idea might have legs. If run as an NR (Chiltern) service it could be cheaper (no electrification, shorter trains - and therefore platforms). Harrow/Wembley etc already have direct services to Watford Junction on LO (and indeed LM). It would be interesting to know how many user of the Watford branch currently travel from the Amersham/Rickmansworth direction and change at Moor Park, who would benefit from a direct service - and conversely how many travel from the Harrow/Pinner direction and would have to change at Rickmansworth if such a service replaced the existing one. Cheaper still would be to build a new basic station on the Met where it crosses the canal, and reopen the LNWR line on the extant trackbed up to where the widening of Ascot Road has severed it, and advertise the five minute walk between them - about the same as at Hackney - as an interchange. A third increase in Revenue is a lot, I feel sure it will be enough to switch the line from loss to profit. I cant imagine anyone travelling from the north end of the met to the west coast main line currently travelling via London, they would go to HOTH then bus to Harrow and Wealdstone or Northwick Park and walk to Kenton. The numbers travelling to St. Albans are negligible as the cross town connection involves a long uphill walk. There are passengers travelling between Watford, Rickmansworth though probably not more than 2/3 a train on average, both the location of Watford station and the 13 mins connection don't help to build the service.
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