North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Dec 5, 2016 15:44:34 GMT
To be honest it was a total shambles silly mistakes all round from all areas there was not one single person to blame though For me, the worst part is this: "The service controller did not understand that the signaller had no means of knowing the positions of any of the points under his control, and the conversation between the two became heated. The signaller tried to explain, unsuccessfully, that he could not confirm in which direction the points would need to be set. The signaller stated he would terminate the conversation, which he then did." Part of the skill of being a good controller is not to allow things to get "heated", even when under pressure. The moment this happens, one is on the road to an incident happening, as people find themselves pressured into doing things that they may not have fully thought through. The rest reads as a sad but fully expected damning verdict on the effectiveness of LU's current operational training. Of the six staff involved in the 'debate' over the securing, surely someone should have been trained correctly and thus known what they were doing? No doubt had things not become "heated", perhaps the time would have been taken to resolve the unknown before the train was authorized to move.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 16:07:13 GMT
I agree
|
|
|
Post by philthetube on Dec 5, 2016 17:27:03 GMT
I thought driver training required to stop short of points, if they were the first train through and check they were correctly scotched and clipped. The RAIB report makes no mention of this.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 5, 2016 18:00:10 GMT
I appreciate it was dark and all, but I am surprised that no one on the ground seems to have been sufficiently aware (and indeed that it has now been recognised as a training need) to realise that the trailing points in the single slip would not allow a train through. Many interested laymen (certainly anyone who has operated a model railway) would have realised the points were not set correctly
Also surprising that the train was not able to force those trailing points across, as they had not been scotched (although they were presumably locked in position by the track circuit failure). There have certainly been incidents where trains have run through wrongly-set trailing points without derailing - this happened at both the Ladbroke Grove and Winsford SPAD incidents in 1999, involving a Networker Turbo and a Pacer respectively. In the Winsford incident the train was rear-ended by another train which must have also managed to negotiate the points despite damage caused by the original run-through.
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Dec 5, 2016 20:40:06 GMT
An example of how not to do things!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 21:10:26 GMT
Section 78 states "The ‘authority’ message includes warnings to travel at caution speed and stop short of any obstruction, but there is no normal expectation that a train operator should be prepared to stop at incorrectly set points" However, the rule book does state "If any points are involved and route securing is not available, you must check they are correctly secured for the appropriate route". I appreciate when it is dark, it is probably hard to see and in this case over what is like a diamond crossover, I guess it could be confusing. The rule book also states that authority to pass the signal at danger must be given "when it is safe to do so" and the driver must be told that the points "have been secured" when authority is given. So while the driver is required to check the points immediately prior to traversing them, this requirement does not relieve everyone else involved of their own rulebook responsibilities which are supposed to be performed in full before the move is authorised. In other words, a train proceeding under rule should not encounter any points set against the train or that are unsecured, and the driver's check is the very last line of defence.
|
|
|
Post by johnb2 on Dec 5, 2016 22:57:19 GMT
I appreciate it was dark and all, but I am surprised that no one on the ground seems to have been sufficiently aware (and indeed that it has now been recognised as a training need) to realise that the trailing points in the single slip would not allow a train through. Many interested laymen (certainly anyone who has operated a model railway) would have realised the points were not set correctly Also surprising that the train was not able to force those trailing points across, as they had not been scotched (although they were presumably locked in position by the track circuit failure). There have certainly been incidents where trains have run through wrongly-set trailing points without derailing - this happened at both the Ladbroke Grove and Winsford SPAD incidents in 1999, involving a Networker Turbo and a Pacer respectively. In the Winsford incident the train was rear-ended by another train which must have also managed to negotiate the points despite damage caused by the original run-through. Although for this move the points were trailing, they are also facing points for trains leaving Platform 7. Facing points are of course required to be locked but I understand that points which are always trailing do not necessarily have to be locked. As these points were used in both directions presumably some sort of substantial mechanical lock would always be engaged, therefore the blades probably could not be moved by much, if at all, by the train as it trailed the points. It would all depend on the strength of the lock and the weight of the train.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 23:23:15 GMT
I appreciate it was dark and all, but I am surprised that no one on the ground seems to have been sufficiently aware (and indeed that it has now been recognised as a training need) to realise that the trailing points in the single slip would not allow a train through. Many interested laymen (certainly anyone who has operated a model railway) would have realised the points were not set correctly Also surprising that the train was not able to force those trailing points across, as they had not been scotched (although they were presumably locked in position by the track circuit failure). There have certainly been incidents where trains have run through wrongly-set trailing points without derailing - this happened at both the Ladbroke Grove and Winsford SPAD incidents in 1999, involving a Networker Turbo and a Pacer respectively. In the Winsford incident the train was rear-ended by another train which must have also managed to negotiate the points despite damage caused by the original run-through. Although for this move the points were trailing, they are also facing points for trains leaving Platform 7. Facing points are of course required to be locked but I understand that points which are always trailing do not necessarily have to be locked. As these points were used in both directions presumably some sort of substantial mechanical lock would always be engaged, therefore the blades probably could not be moved by much, if at all, by the train as it trailed the points. It would all depend on the strength of the lock and the weight of the train. I think the very low speed is likely to have been an important factor here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 7:58:26 GMT
It is true in days gone by that trailing points did not need to be locked but this has now changed in the last 10 to 15 years. As the A end is facing and trailing then a full set of points are provided. The forces going through the mechanism are so great if they are being pushed by the train in the wrong direction then something has to give. I do have pictures of the points before and after and they were in a right mess. The train actually came off at the back of the points and the wheel went straight through the middle of the points and nearly cut everything in half.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 6, 2016 9:32:46 GMT
Although for this move the points were trailing, they are also facing points for trains leaving Platform 7. Facing points are of course required to be locked As these points were used in both directions presumably some sort of substantial mechanical lock would always be engaged, therefore the blades probably could not be moved by much, if at all, by the train as it trailed the points. It would all depend on the strength of the lock and the weight of the train. The train at Ladbroke Grove also trailed through a set of points intended for facing moves (indeed the signalling did not provide for the trailing move), and they were set for the other route. As far as I am aware the 165 was not derailed by the points.
|
|
|
Post by Harsig on Dec 6, 2016 10:31:00 GMT
Although for this move the points were trailing, they are also facing points for trains leaving Platform 7. Facing points are of course required to be locked As these points were used in both directions presumably some sort of substantial mechanical lock would always be engaged, therefore the blades probably could not be moved by much, if at all, by the train as it trailed the points. It would all depend on the strength of the lock and the weight of the train. The train at Ladbroke Grove also trailed through a set of points intended for facing moves (indeed the signalling did not provide for the trailing move), and they were set for the other route. As far as I am aware the 165 was not derailed by the points. I would suggest that a number of factors combine to determine the likelihood of a derailment occurring when a train tries to force its way through a set of points locked in the other position. These factors would include train weight ( the heavier a train is the less likely a derailment is), the train speed (I suspect that a derailment is more likely at very low or very high speeds than it is at medium speeds; at low speeds because of the train's lack of momentum). The third factor, I suggest, would be the geometry of the points involved; points laid out for higher speeds may well be easier to trail through because the initial contact between wheel and switch rail is at a shallower angle.
|
|
|
Post by banana99 on Dec 6, 2016 17:21:27 GMT
What a disgrace. As someone says above anyone with a model railway would know how a single slip works.
Also if there was a knowledge gap in pointwork required for platform 7, then why not take the train into platform 8?
Some serious problems to be worked through here.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 6, 2016 17:42:13 GMT
What a disgrace. As someone says above anyone with a model railway would know how a single slip works. Also if there was a knowledge gap in pointwork required for platform 7, then why not take the train into platform 8? There was already a train in platform 8. Paragraph 40 of the report says that the signaller was unable to set a route for it to depart. (That is also why points 38 had to be reversed - they were still set normal for the route that previous train had taken into the station) Also, they didn't know there was a knowledge gap - it was an "unknown unknown". Moreover, even if platform 8 or 9 had been empty, getting there would have involved negotiating three sets of points (38, 40B, and either 40A or 41A), instead of just the two (38, 39A) at the slip. (40/41 are the scissors crossing giving access to platforms 8 and 9) All three would have to be scotched and clipped before the train could proceed.
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 6, 2016 17:52:00 GMT
Also if there was a knowledge gap in pointwork required for platform 7, then why not take the train into platform 8? there were S7 trains in pfm.8 & 9 unable to move because of the failure.
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Dec 6, 2016 18:11:41 GMT
What a disgrace. As someone says above anyone with a model railway would know how a single slip works. Also if there was a knowledge gap in pointwork required for platform 7, then why not take the train into platform 8? Some serious problems to be worked through here. Can I reiterate a point made some weeks ago on a related thread where the question was asked as to what training any of the staff would have received on a slip set of points. From the RAIB report it seems the answer is none, which is what I originally suspected. One cannot blame the staff for this as having a model railway isn't one of the attributes LU seeks as part of its recruitment process! Unfortunately I think these sorts of incidents will happen more and more in future years if LU continues with what appears to be a policy of removing knowledgeable old-school staff from the network. Local training on both trains and stations is paramount, and there is a lot of benefit in knowledge passing down through generations of staff. The Station Supervisor should have never been placed in the position where he simply wasn't adequately trained to carry out a task expected of him. The only criticism I would direct towards any of the staff is the "heated" nature of at least one of the conversations. The controller involved simply should have known better, especially as he evidently didn't know the answer to the question either.
|
|
|
Post by banana99 on Dec 6, 2016 18:36:04 GMT
OK fair enough re P8 and P9.
But I would still hope that a simple walk of the track would have demonstrated to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that the point work was not set correctly. The station and train staff are all responsible for not understanding how a train interacts with the track. No training is necessary, a schoolboy doesn't need training for his Hornby.
|
|
|
Post by whistlekiller2000 on Dec 6, 2016 18:48:20 GMT
OK fair enough re P8 and P9. But I would still hope that a simple walk of the track would have demonstrated to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that the point work was not set correctly. The station and train staff are all responsible for not understanding how a train interacts with the track. No training is necessary, a schoolboy doesn't need training for his Hornby. There's really no need for the hyperbole. There was an incident that's subsequently been investigated and recommendations made to the staff concerned. I'd rather not see staff (in any walk of life) referred to as less aware than an untrained schoolboy. It's rather insulting and not necessary to make a point.
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Dec 6, 2016 19:05:06 GMT
OK fair enough re P8 and P9. But I would still hope that a simple walk of the track would have demonstrated to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that the point work was not set correctly. The station and train staff are all responsible for not understanding how a train interacts with the track. No training is necessary, a schoolboy doesn't need training for his Hornby. Slip points are complex, and can be confusing if you've not experienced them before. Remember it was dark at the time, and by the time actions were being taken on the ground communications had become "heated". I'd suggest that had this unhelpful pressure not crept in then the derailment probably wouldn't have happened.
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
|
Post by rincew1nd on Dec 6, 2016 19:06:06 GMT
But I would still hope that a simple walk of the track would have demonstrated to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that the point work was not set correctly. The station and train staff are all responsible for not understanding how a train interacts with the track. No training is necessary, a schoolboy doesn't need training for his Hornby. I suspect that no matter how much time you spend playing with 'Hornby' if you were asked at 1am to go and clip a set of points in between rain storms - you probably wouldn't notice that another set of points (that nobody told you to look at) wasn't set correctly. I know I wouldn't - I'd be taking care not to slip on a wet sleeper or trip over the various bits of 'track' because not only are point clips a little heavy, they make brilliant electrical conductors.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,770
|
Post by Chris M on Dec 6, 2016 19:15:54 GMT
Chances are the "average schoolboy" with a trainset has derailed trains on incorrectly-set points on more than one occasion (the same immediate cause as this incident) and has acquired the knowledge about point positions that way.
Expecting people who did not have the benefits of a train set as a child (and not all could have afforded it even if they wanted one) to know something that, they were not required or expected to know recruited, had never received training in such things and who (according my understanding of the rule book extracts in the report) should (almost) never be in a position to need to know, to instantly know to what look for and how to look for it in the dark and in a stressful situation is ridiculous. LU, rightly or wrongly, have decided that railway knowledge that would traditionally been extensively trained in and handed down between generations of staff in years gone by is no longer required. You may disagree with the decision, but given that it has been made you cannot expect people who joined under this regime to have that knowledge.
|
|
|
Post by tjw on Dec 6, 2016 19:17:15 GMT
It is all very well to state that a walk of the route would have prevented this, but it was dark, it was raining, and a new track arrangement in operation, as well as the joys electrified rails.
While the BR rule book (1950) I was tested on does not say it, but I was told that before authorising a train past a signal the route must be walked to check the position of all the points, in cases of failure of signalling apparatus.
As for the heated exchange... If I called up a signalbox and the signalman informed me that he had no indications as to the positions of his points, I too would be incredulous! But then again I have only worked in mechanical boxes where we have the box levers and also the supplementary electrical detection of the position of the points and signals. I find it bizarre that these power boxes have no indicators, now I know why it takes so long to get things moving on the modern railway when signalling apparatus fails! No holding flags out of 'box windows!
Anyway I presume that there is not much weight on the leading bogie of a D stock... In my experience the point drive rods, locks etc. usually deform when the point is run through!
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Dec 6, 2016 19:21:07 GMT
The way I see it is that this situation was a combination of errors and sloppy practice. One error on its own probably wouldn't have led to the derailment.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 19:23:34 GMT
It is all very well to state that a walk of the route would have prevented this, but it was dark, it was raining, and a new track arrangement in operation, as well as the joys electrified rails. While the BR rule book (1950) I was tested on does not say it, but I was told that before authorising a train past a signal the route must be walked to check the position of all the points, in cases of failure of signalling apparatus. As for the heated exchange... If I called up a signalbox and the signalman informed me that he had no indications as to the positions of his points, I too would be incredulous! But then again I have only worked in mechanical boxes where we have the box levers and also the supplementary electrical detection of the position of the points and signals. I find it bizarre that these power boxes have no indicators, now I know why it takes so long to get things moving on the modern railway when signalling apparatus fails! No holding flags out of 'box windows! Anyway I presume that there is not much weight on the leading bogie of a D stock... In my experience the point drive rods, locks etc. usually deform when the point is run through! Power box diagrams do show the normal position of points and they show the actual lay of the points at any given time, with knobs available to manually set points. Earl's Court control room's overview diagram does not show the normal position of points nor does it show the actual lay of the points at any given time. Points cannot be manually set individually from Earl's Court control room, which it must be remembered, is of a regulating room design, rather than a PSB design.
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Dec 6, 2016 19:38:16 GMT
It is all very well to state that a walk of the route would have prevented this, but it was dark, it was raining, and a new track arrangement in operation, as well as the joys electrified rails. While the BR rule book (1950) I was tested on does not say it, but I was told that before authorising a train past a signal the route must be walked to check the position of all the points, in cases of failure of signalling apparatus. As for the heated exchange... If I called up a signalbox and the signalman informed me that he had no indications as to the positions of his points, I too would be incredulous! But then again I have only worked in mechanical boxes where we have the box levers and also the supplementary electrical detection of the position of the points and signals. I find it bizarre that these power boxes have no indicators, now I know why it takes so long to get things moving on the modern railway when signalling apparatus fails! No holding flags out of 'box windows! Anyway I presume that there is not much weight on the leading bogie of a D stock... In my experience the point drive rods, locks etc. usually deform when the point is run through! I think the issue of lack of indications in the control room is a bit of a side-issue. Whilst if indications were provided it *may* have drawn someone's attention to the presence of these points, I'd say the bigger issue was that no one identified these points were part of the route the train was going to travel over. Remember that controllers and signallers are taught that the no.1 source of truth should be the paper plans present in the control room, so this is what people should have been referring to. A visual indication might have provided enough of a visual cue, but a N/R indication of the type found on, for example, a level frame might still not have been enough. It seems that no one in either of the control rooms was sufficiently trained to be able to interpret the diagrams, so this is where the basic error lies. The Station Supervisor was evidently not sufficiently trained to be able to pick up on this error. It's clear from the report there was a level of uncertainty, which is undoubtedly why there were various messages aimed at getting the driver to proceed with an unusually high degree of caution. When there is uncertainty the best thing to do is not implement the course of action until the uncertainty is removed. But put in some pressure and you're on the way to an incident. The train wasn't crowded, there was no danger to anyone if it sat there a little longer whilst a course of action was implemented which everyone was 100% happy with. That's what should have happened. The following is just my personal opinion, however my view is that operational training on LU nowadays is minimal, shoddy, and very poor quality, and staff often have little opportunity to brush up on what they have learned. Yet LU expects incidents to be resolved with the same degree of efficiently as if staff were very well trained. This presents a dilemma which is the elephant in the room unfortunately.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 19:51:05 GMT
It is all very well to state that a walk of the route would have prevented this, but it was dark, it was raining, and a new track arrangement in operation, as well as the joys electrified rails. While the BR rule book (1950) I was tested on does not say it, but I was told that before authorising a train past a signal the route must be walked to check the position of all the points, in cases of failure of signalling apparatus. As for the heated exchange... If I called up a signalbox and the signalman informed me that he had no indications as to the positions of his points, I too would be incredulous! But then again I have only worked in mechanical boxes where we have the box levers and also the supplementary electrical detection of the position of the points and signals. I find it bizarre that these power boxes have no indicators, now I know why it takes so long to get things moving on the modern railway when signalling apparatus fails! No holding flags out of 'box windows! Anyway I presume that there is not much weight on the leading bogie of a D stock... In my experience the point drive rods, locks etc. usually deform when the point is run through! I think the issue of lack of indications in the control room is a bit of a side-issue. Whilst if indications were provided it *may* have drawn someone's attention to the presence of these points, I'd say the bigger issue was that no one identified these points were part of the route the train was going to travel over. Remember that controllers and signallers are taught that the no.1 source of truth should be the paper plans present in the control room, so this is what people should have been referring to. A visual indication might have provided enough of a visual cue, but a N/R indication of the type found on, for example, a level frame might still not have been enough. It seems that no one in either of the control rooms was sufficiently trained to be able to interpret the diagrams, so this is where the basic error lies. The Station Supervisor was evidently not sufficiently trained to be able to pick up on this error. It's clear from the report there was a level of uncertainty, which is undoubtedly why there were various messages aimed at getting the driver to proceed with an unusually high degree of caution. When there is uncertainty the best thing to do is not implement the course of action until the uncertainty is removed. But put in some pressure and you're on the way to an incident. The train wasn't crowded, there was no danger to anyone if it sat there a little longer whilst a course of action was implemented which everyone was 100% happy with. That's what should have happened. If my interpretation of the report is accurate, it seems that the signaller only had an out-of-date diagram to refer to, not realising an up-to-date diagram was present. The signaller knew his diagram was out-of-date and wasn't sure about the exact current layout out on the ground. I understood that that was partly why he didn't recognise 39A points as being part of the route and why he became confused and why discussions with the controller went the way that they did. Had he had point indications, I myself don't see any reason to suppose the signaller would have been unable to identify 39A points as being part of the route. But then, of course, we can't say, nobody can tell. So best not go there, but I certainly thought the report suggested that the signaller wasn't aware of the up-to-date paper plans present in the control room and I'm not certain that the report supports the view that the signaller was unable to interpret the diagrams, although you are right, of course, that he doesn't seem to have been trained on slip points.
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Dec 6, 2016 19:56:52 GMT
I think the issue of lack of indications in the control room is a bit of a side-issue. Whilst if indications were provided it *may* have drawn someone's attention to the presence of these points, I'd say the bigger issue was that no one identified these points were part of the route the train was going to travel over. Remember that controllers and signallers are taught that the no.1 source of truth should be the paper plans present in the control room, so this is what people should have been referring to. A visual indication might have provided enough of a visual cue, but a N/R indication of the type found on, for example, a level frame might still not have been enough. It seems that no one in either of the control rooms was sufficiently trained to be able to interpret the diagrams, so this is where the basic error lies. The Station Supervisor was evidently not sufficiently trained to be able to pick up on this error. It's clear from the report there was a level of uncertainty, which is undoubtedly why there were various messages aimed at getting the driver to proceed with an unusually high degree of caution. When there is uncertainty the best thing to do is not implement the course of action until the uncertainty is removed. But put in some pressure and you're on the way to an incident. The train wasn't crowded, there was no danger to anyone if it sat there a little longer whilst a course of action was implemented which everyone was 100% happy with. That's what should have happened. If my interpretation of the report is accurate, it seems that the signaller only had an out-of-date diagram to refer to, not realising an up-to-date diagram was present. The signaller knew his diagram was out-of-date and wasn't sure about the exact current layout out on the ground. I understood that that was partly why he didn't recognise 39A points as being part of the route and why he became confused and why discussions with the controller went the way that they did. Had he had point indications, I myself don't see any reason to suppose the signaller would have been unable to identify 39A points as being part of the route. But then, of course, we can't say, nobody can tell. So best not go there, but I certainly thought the report suggested that the signaller wasn't aware of the up-to-date paper plans present in the control room and I'm not certain that the report supports the view that the signaller was unable to interpret the diagrams, although you are right, of course, that he doesn't seem to have been trained on slip points. The lack of up-to-date paper diagrams is another matter which is pretty inexcusable. However, as I say, diagrams should be the no.1 source of truth - nothing else. If anyone had taken a few moments to sit back and think about things, the correct up-to-date diagrams could have been located on computer within minutes. In the meantime, with uncertainty prevailing about the layout, should things have been progressed in the way they were? No. Having said all that, I'm not sure how key the issue of the diagrams being out-of-date is. These points hadn't changed, and the slip was still present in both the old and new layouts.
|
|
|
Post by tjw on Dec 6, 2016 20:21:10 GMT
I saw this quote from the report... "understand that the signaller had no means of knowing the positions of any of the points under his control," but then I also thought that this was true "Power box diagrams do show the normal position of points and they show the actual lay of the points at any given time, with knobs available to manually set points." So WHY did the signalman state he had no indications?
I have known a few signalling inspectors and they would have exploded if they found a signalman unable to understand N/R indications and not being able to give instructions as to the positions the points need to be in.
O.K. I accept that two versions of the track plans being available in different places, can cause a lot of confusion... and I also accept that I would not assume that all railwayman would understand those diagrams and understand what Normal and Reverse means! In conversations with staff I have resorted to "are the points set for x platform / road"
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,770
|
Post by Chris M on Dec 6, 2016 20:46:29 GMT
If anyone had taken a few moments to sit back and think about things, the correct up-to-date diagrams could have been located on computer within minutes. I don't know that that is correct, at paragraph 87 of the report the RAIB state: "The service manager found a signalling diagram on the LUL intranet, but he dismissed this as it showed a track layout he knew was no longer in place." Having said all that, I'm not sure how key the issue of the diagrams being out-of-date is. These points hadn't changed, and the slip was still present in both the old and new layouts. Would you, in the same situation (under pressure, with only a diagram of the old layout to consult), be 100% positive that these points had not changed between layouts? I don't think I would be.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 21:00:08 GMT
I saw this quote from the report... "understand that the signaller had no means of knowing the positions of any of the points under his control," but then I also thought that this was true "Power box diagrams do show the normal position of points and they show the actual lay of the points at any given time, with knobs available to manually set points." So WHY did the signalman state he had no indications? I have known a few signalling inspectors and they would have exploded if they found a signalman unable to understand N/R indications and not being able to give instructions as to the positions the points need to be in. O.K. I accept that two versions of the track plans being available in different places, can cause a lot of confusion... and I also accept that I would not assume that all railwayman would understand those diagrams and understand what Normal and Reverse means! In conversations with staff I have resorted to "are the points set for x platform / road" This is getting a bit off-topic. It is true that the "service operator" (referred to as the "signaller" in the report) has no means of knowing the positions of any of the points under his control. (Actually those more knowledgeable than me will able to let me know whether or not Trackernet shows this information. I have a feeling it does, but Trackernet is not to be used for safety critical decision making.) This is how Earl's Court Control Room looked in 2005. You can see in the report (for example Figure 7 on page 16) that the lay of the points is not displayed on the overview diagrams. Indeed, track circuit indications flood at Earl's Court. The diagrams are also not designed to show the normal position of points. For example, you can clearly see in Figure 7 that 39B points are shown with the road from platform 7 merging smoothly with the eastbound main. 39 points would actually have to be reverse for this. So it's obvious that the diagram is not designed to show all points in the normal position, allowing one to infer what's normal and what's reverse. This (by way of example) is Derby PSB. You can see that all points are drawn in their normal position. This is not the case at Earl's Court. Along the top you can see a row of knobs allowing manual control of individual points. No such control is available at Earl's Court. This knobs have lights confirming the position of all points at any one time as you can see. No such point indications are shown at Earl's Court. You can see that route and track circuit lights do not flood, but illuminate along the route that is set. In this picture, you can see the red lights of 1V50 are illuminated along its precise course. By contrast, this is Earl's Court. Notice the Piccadilly line train on the westbound at Down Street just passing signal PB3. Observe the flooding of track circuit AG. Is this train heading for Hyde Park Corner or Down Street Siding? We cannot tell by the diagram. What is the lay of number 6 points? We do not know. Earl's Court is not a Power Signal Box. It opened as a regulating room. Day to day signalling is done by program machines. The primary role of the service operator (regulator) was intended to be supervising the program machines, stepping them, pausing them and so on. The routesetting buttons were designed for emergency use and were initially housed in draws. They select full routes from signals not on an NX basis. Observe this picture. If I wish to set the route from Boston Manor to Northfields platform 4 for via signals WR1 A, WR1 B and WR1 C (main aspect only), I will press the WR 1 (1) button. If I wish to set the route to Northfields platform 3 via signals WR1 A, WR1 B and WR1 C (with harbour lights) I will press the WR 1 (2) button. I have no control over points.
|
|
|
Post by banana99 on Dec 6, 2016 21:58:49 GMT
I'm at a loss to understand why the signaller needs to understand the status of the points when there are people on the ground whose only responsibility is to ensure that the physical path is safe for the single train into a single platform. This irrespective of rain or light conditions. Just get it right. How hard can it be? I understand that I am on a messageboard full of sympathisers....but can you honestly say you would have erred in this manner. I wouldn't have. Mind you I had a train set
|
|