Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 16, 2016 21:59:42 GMT
It must have been rather frustrating for the 19 passengers, who were so close to their final destination. Sitting on the train for an hour, outside their final destination, only for it to move and derail! Would have been quicker to get the bus... London Underground has a one hour detrainment target so it did grab my attention when it was stated the train sat for an hour before starting the move. Looking at the internal information I can access, it was actually closer to 50 minutes. The liklihood is that service control were of the view that the train could be berthed in the platform within the magic hour target, and in any case the staff required to effect the detrainment would have already been utilised in securing the route; so I'd suggest that is why they chose to leave the passengers on the train. Would this be a situation where scotch and clips would be used? (obvious they weren't used on the incident points but sounds like might have been used on others) Any time a train is being authorised past a red signal and points are involved the whole route a train is taking must be secure. Scotch & clip is one method and in this particular instance was the only method available. As it is now obvious there's no point hiding the fact that during this particular incident not all of the points involved in the route were correctly secured. Other methods are Route Secure visual, illuminated A, route card working or route proving. Central line also has "white route locking". I won't cover those here as that is serious thread drift. Hmmm, Scotch and clips are used on facing points to prevent the points moving under a train (i.e. to avoid all those interesting mishaps in Thomas the Tank engine books!). I cannot remember what the BR rule book said about trailing points... But as far as I remember sprung trailing points would not need any clip or scotch!, although it is un-nerving to be approaching trailing points not set for your route. N.B. The above may NOT be correct for the modern rule books now in use! For starters we use the London Underground rule book on London Underground metals........and in this particular location the sprung points were removed last year. The problem was service control were using diagrams which still showed the old layout (and the sprung points) - of course that's very different to what is there now. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 16, 2016 22:57:57 GMT
It must have been rather frustrating for the 19 passengers, who were so close to their final destination. Sitting on the train for an hour, outside their final destination, only for it to move and derail! Would have been quicker to get the bus... London Underground has a one hour detrainment target so it did grab my attention when it was stated the train sat for an hour before starting the move. Looking at the internal information I can access, it was actually closer to 50 minutes. The liklihood is that service control were of the view that the train could be berthed in the platform within the magic hour target, and in any case the staff required to effect the detrainment would have already been utilised in securing the route; so I'd suggest that is why they chose to leave the passengers on the train. How long would it take from the point of deciding that a detrainment is required to the first passengers being detrained? (assuming that the train hasn't derailed at this point) |
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Post by jamesb on Mar 17, 2016 21:09:09 GMT
I was thinking that ATO/ATO might make these types of incidents things of the past, then I came across the DLR incident at West India Quay at 2009; it seems that during a signal failure the train was driven in 'restricted manual' mode or equivalent, over a set of points that weren't set for the route assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c9004e5274a42900001a1/R032010_100304_West_India_Quay.pdfIt's incredibly rare , thankfully, and I'm sure down to a unique set of circumstances - like the swiss cheese model (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model) - all the holes in the cheese lined up on this occasion! |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 17, 2016 21:19:07 GMT
As long as there is a human somewhere in the chain (and until AIs start programming themselves there always will be) there is the potential for human error.
In this case, if the nature of the failure meant that the route ahead was showing occupied when it wasn't then I think that even with ATO a human would have been required to move the train into the station by some means.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 17, 2016 21:40:27 GMT
How long would it take from the point of deciding that a detrainment is required to the first passengers being detrained? (assuming that the train hasn't derailed at this point) There's no easy answer to that question. If a train is just a few metres from a well staffed central area station it wouldn't take long at all. Halfway way between Elm Park & Dagenham East late at night with only one member of staff at each station could take forever. This is where service control have to make a judgement call based on the circumstances of a given incident. If its a dead train and no chance of movement (derailment being the most extreme example, but a loss of all pick up shoes, a cable fire knocking out traction current, S stock with both compressors "off juice" or a train unable to get a brake release are other valid examples) the decision is much easier for controllers to make. When you have a signalling based issue such as was the case at Ealing Broadway, service control will have technical staff advising that a fix may be possible in X, Y or Z time..........then its a game of chance...... If there's no fix by the time promised, "but give us another 5 minutes......" - what do you do?! Its basically a case of working out the likely fix time (realistic not what's promised!) versus the methods available to move the train under failure conditions (including how long they will take to implement) and then deciding which will get the passengers off quickest. Easier said than done!! |
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Mar 30, 2016 13:05:36 GMT
In general terms, you have to feel pretty sorry for the staff directly involved at that hour of the night, looking for points to secure in the dark with out of date information. And you have to seriously question the one hour target to detrain because whilst that is a good idea in principle, and might pertain in a crowded central London tube scenario, in the circumstances in question, with an uncrowded train with the juice still on nobody was in any immediate danger. Could it be, and the investigation might tell us, that staff involved in securing the route were under pressure to meet the one hour deadline and their decision making time, in a complex and unrehearsable scenario, might have been compromised.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 30, 2016 13:53:13 GMT
Could it be, and the investigation might tell us, that staff involved in securing the route were under pressure to meet the one hour deadline and their decision making time, in a complex and unrehearsable scenario, might have been compromised.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 3, 2016 15:14:41 GMT
Had a feeling they would bring up the fact some documents were out of date they are referring to the asset database as it has not been updated since the area mods last year. In fact 39a points are listed as 39 only as the b end we're just a spring trailer set. I thought they were talking more about the copy of the controller's diagram used by the signaller? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 20:33:31 GMT
There is lots of issues with documents and asset information when a area has been upgraded / modified. The project side of things like to drag there heels.
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North End
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Post by North End on Apr 4, 2016 15:19:46 GMT
There is lots of issues with documents and asset information when a area has been upgraded / modified. The project side of things like to drag there heels. I may be missing something, however I think the issue of the diagrams being out-of-date is a separate issue. Whilst undoubtedly the diagrams should have been correct (needless to say it's a pretty major safety issue to find station staff, controllers or signallers apparently may have been working from incorrect diagrams), the main issue seems to be simply that 39A points were lying unsecured the wrong way for the train movement authorised over them, evidently no one identified that the train would be traversing them, nor that they were lying in the wrong position. This would have been the case with either the old or new track layout. At the end of the day, when authorising a train past a signal the onus should be fully on the person authorising the move to ensure everything is safe and correct. Advice passed down from old-school staff is that the person securing the points should as far as possible be the one who passes the authority to the driver, and if multiple points are involved then the route should be walked first to ensure nothing has been overlooked. Old Rule Books allude to this, the current Rule Book doesn't. I'm not fully familiar with the new layout at Ealing Broadway, however the TCDs appear to show the 38/39A points form a single-slip, rather then straightforward individual points. From having secured these type of points at Golders Green, it's vital the person securing is fully satisfied the entire route is fully and correctly secured - no matter what time pressure there may be you don't give the authority until you have walked the route at least once. At Golders Green I've witnessed long-serving and experienced managers get a second person to check their work to ensure they are fully satisfied. One wonders how much training the staff involved in the Ealing Broadway incident had on this more complex type of points... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 15:31:44 GMT
38 points are a single end of points and 39a are the single slips which are approx a train car apart from 38. But whoever clips and scotches the points that person is supposed to walk the route and satisfying themselves that everything is ok before passing on the message to the person authorising the move that all is ok. Ultimately the diagram in the control room should be a mimic of what is on site. Other people involved with the likes of the controller and what not should have all the same revisions of any prints used I.e TCD's.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 4, 2016 15:49:32 GMT
I'm getting confused here, I originally thought it came off on a set of facing points but having seen this diagram on the RAIB site I'm not so sure now:  Was the train bound for Platform 7 (as the diagram and accompanying text alludes) or 8/9 which would make more sense? |
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North End
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Post by North End on Apr 4, 2016 16:30:46 GMT
I'm getting confused here, I originally thought it came off on a set of facing points but having seen this diagram on the RAIB site I'm not so sure now: Was the train bound for Platform 7 (as the diagram and accompanying text alludes) or 8/9 which would make more sense? Definitely the trailing points (39A). Can anyone confirm that the points involved were not renewed at the same time the sidings were removed? The picture on the RAIB report combined with the fact the train did derail suggests an older design. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 16:31:55 GMT
They are trailing and they was not touched when the site was modified except from turning 39 into 39a
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Post by jetblast787 on Apr 4, 2016 18:48:20 GMT
To slightly derail the topic (pun intended  ), why is there preference to use platform 7 at Ealing? Is it because its easier for customers to change trains in case a train at platform 7 or 8 is unable to depart for whatever reason? |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 4, 2016 22:03:03 GMT
To slightly derail the topic (pun intended ), why is there preference to use platform 7 at Ealing? Is it because its easier for customers to change trains in case a train at platform 7 or 8 is unable to depart for whatever reason? I dint think there is a preference, although it's annoying when trains get routed into platform 9, even when 7 and 8 are both vacant. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 22:54:25 GMT
The joys of programme machines  |
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Post by rheostar on Apr 5, 2016 7:56:41 GMT
The joys of programme machines "Why did you have a wrong 'un off at Acton?" "Sorry guv. I was in first come, but there's wrong TDs..." |
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North End
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Post by North End on Apr 5, 2016 9:12:01 GMT
To slightly derail the topic (pun intended ), why is there preference to use platform 7 at Ealing? Is it because its easier for customers to change trains in case a train at platform 7 or 8 is unable to depart for whatever reason? I dint think there is a preference, although it's annoying when trains get routed into platform 9, even when 7 and 8 are both vacant. TBTC is no better. During the stepping back at Morden, you can have all three platforms empty, yet an incoming train will be routed into the middle if that's the booked platform. To force it into platform 5 requires a fiddly set of button clicks, and relies on the signaller noticing quite early. (It's generally preferable to use the right-hand most platform if everything is empty, as the train's departure won't be blocked by the next incoming arrival, and in the case of Morden you get a slightly quicker turnround on platform 5 as doors are only opened on one side - these few seconds all add up especially when you're trying to achieve a 30tph service). |
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Post by alpinejohn on Apr 5, 2016 19:41:49 GMT
I dint think there is a preference, although it's annoying when trains get routed into platform 9, even when 7 and 8 are both vacant. TBTC is no better. During the stepping back at Morden, you can have all three platforms empty, yet an incoming train will be routed into the middle if that's the booked platform. To force it into platform 5 requires a fiddly set of button clicks, and relies on the signaller noticing quite early. (It's generally preferable to use the right-hand most platform if everything is empty, as the train's departure won't be blocked by the next incoming arrival, and in the case of Morden you get a slightly quicker turnround on platform 5 as doors are only opened on one side - these few seconds all add up especially when you're trying to achieve a 30tph service). That is a very revealing comment. Not wanting to stray off topic - that observation suggests that in terminal locations such as Ealing Broadway there may already be a very evident practical rule of thumb (used by the current signalling team) as to which platform assignment is operationally optimum. What worries me is the extent to which this sort of knowledge may simply be lost (and subsequently re-learnt) if TFL just go out to tender and buy the cheapest off-the shelf Sub Surface lines signalling system without ensuring that whoever delivers the new system actively works to ensure the new system is built with extensive input from the current front-line signalling staff. I fear that without their early involvement, known bottlenecks, capacity constraints and potential areas for service improvements may be overlooked when it comes to rolling out the replacement SSL signalling systems. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Apr 5, 2016 20:21:00 GMT
TBTC is no better. During the stepping back at Morden, you can have all three platforms empty, yet an incoming train will be routed into the middle if that's the booked platform. To force it into platform 5 requires a fiddly set of button clicks, and relies on the signaller noticing quite early. (It's generally preferable to use the right-hand most platform if everything is empty, as the train's departure won't be blocked by the next incoming arrival, and in the case of Morden you get a slightly quicker turnround on platform 5 as doors are only opened on one side - these few seconds all add up especially when you're trying to achieve a 30tph service). That is a very revealing comment. Not wanting to stray off topic - that observation suggests that in terminal locations such as Ealing Broadway there may already be a very evident practical rule of thumb (used by the current signalling team) as to which platform assignment is operationally optimum. What worries me is the extent to which this sort of knowledge may simply be lost (and subsequently re-learnt) if TFL just go out to tender and buy the cheapest off-the shelf Sub Surface lines signalling system without ensuring that whoever delivers the new system actively works to ensure the new system is built with extensive input from the current front-line signalling staff. I fear that without their early involvement, known bottlenecks, capacity constraints and potential areas for service improvements may be overlooked when it comes to rolling out the replacement SSL signalling systems. Yes - and this is something which will become more of an issue as time goes on. It doesn't help that some silly ideas enter the mix too. Using Morden again, it's considered bad practice to have all three platforms empty during the peak. Not for any operational or customer service reason (as with stepping back quick turnrounds can be achieved to keep intervals regular and trains on time), but because it "looks bad". To be fair, that's not designed into the signalling system, but it gives an idea of the sorts of ideas some people work to on the modern railway. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 5, 2016 20:44:35 GMT
That is a very revealing comment. Not wanting to stray off topic - that observation suggests that in terminal locations such as Ealing Broadway there may already be a very evident practical rule of thumb (used by the current signalling team) as to which platform assignment is operationally optimum. What worries me is the extent to which this sort of knowledge may simply be lost (and subsequently re-learnt) if TFL just go out to tender and buy the cheapest off-the shelf Sub Surface lines signalling system without ensuring that whoever delivers the new system actively works to ensure the new system is built with extensive input from the current front-line signalling staff. I fear that without their early involvement, known bottlenecks, capacity constraints and potential areas for service improvements may be overlooked when it comes to rolling out the replacement SSL signalling systems. Yes - and this is something which will become more of an issue as time goes on. It doesn't help that some silly ideas enter the mix too. Using Morden again, it's considered bad practice to have all three platforms empty during the peak. Not for any operational or customer service reason (as with stepping back quick turnrounds can be achieved to keep intervals regular and trains on time), but because it "looks bad". To be fair, that's not designed into the signalling system, but it gives an idea of the sorts of ideas some people work to on the modern railway. So I suppose, in their eyes, that three platforms occupied with a service suspension is fine because it "looks better" . . . |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 7, 2016 13:37:37 GMT
There is lots of issues with documents and asset information when a area has been upgraded / modified. The project side of things like to drag there heels. Doesn't help when the APD rep puts in a snagging list expecting the project to address things that weren't in the project scope |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2016 14:58:13 GMT
We need to keep our friendly people in assurance happy don't we
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Post by pgb on Apr 8, 2016 7:00:46 GMT
That is a very revealing comment. Not wanting to stray off topic - that observation suggests that in terminal locations such as Ealing Broadway there may already be a very evident practical rule of thumb (used by the current signalling team) as to which platform assignment is operationally optimum. That kind of operation is fairly common. About five years ago I had a visit to Kings Cross 'box. It was a Saturday and I was fascinated with Panel 1 (The Cross to Finsbury Park). Asked the signaller about the routing of trains and got the reply of "it's easy, the first four go to the left, the second four go to the right, then the first four leave and we continue like that" |
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Post by sawb on Dec 5, 2016 10:07:23 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 12:13:26 GMT
Very Interesting
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Post by johnb2 on Dec 5, 2016 13:28:48 GMT
Indeed it is. Seems to have been a bit of a wake up call in a number of areas, judging by the reported rapid responses to some deficiencies.
Fortunately at a very low speed and no one hurt. Bet the driver must have been a bit shaken though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 14:08:42 GMT
To be honest it was a total shambles silly mistakes all round from all areas there was not one single person to blame though
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Post by PiccNT on Dec 5, 2016 14:38:22 GMT
Section 78 states "The ‘authority’ message includes warnings to travel at caution speed and stop short of any obstruction, but there is no normal expectation that a train operator should be prepared to stop at incorrectly set points" However, the rule book does state "If any points are involved and route securing is not available, you must check they are correctly secured for the appropriate route". I appreciate when it is dark, it is probably hard to see and in this case over what is like a diamond crossover, I guess it could be confusing.
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), why is there preference to use platform 7 at Ealing? Is it because its easier for customers to change trains in case a train at platform 7 or 8 is unable to depart for whatever reason?
