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Post by brigham on Feb 23, 2016 16:33:14 GMT
I always thought that 'crossrail' was the concept: a railway which 'crosses' London. If it offers an urban-style high-frequency short distance service, that service needs to be marketed in the same way as the existing ones: With a line name and colour.
The last thing the traveller needs to know is who built the railway and who operates it.
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Post by stapler on Feb 23, 2016 16:40:11 GMT
NF - nice suggestions, but Betty Boothroyd was christened Betty, not Elzabeth!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 23, 2016 17:35:46 GMT
The whole point of Crossrail is that at last and with quite some delay given the various plans over the years, London will have an East-West through line similar to the S-Bahn, Cercanias, RER etc in other European countries. That was the original concept of the east west connection from Paddington to Liverpool Street completed in 1875. I wonder what happened to that? Back in the 1930s its operator fought hard to have it considered as an outer suburban line rather than a metro. (The name was a bit of a giveaway though) If it isn't an S-bahn, why are its trains called S stock?  |
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Antje
侵略! S系, でゲソ! The Tube comes from the bottom of London!
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Post by Antje on Feb 23, 2016 17:46:35 GMT
I actually suggested S-Bahn for both Overground and Crossrail in person at their then office at TCR some time in 2011, S obviously meaning Suburban. Routes would have S-prefix numbers like Berlin.
And I can see how political this is going to be, despite my efforts not to refer to a certain national situation.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 17:54:37 GMT
I think crossrail 2 should be called “Charlie line“. Bankers and dealers would love it
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Antje
侵略! S系, でゲソ! The Tube comes from the bottom of London!
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Post by Antje on Feb 23, 2016 18:22:52 GMT
I think crossrail 2 should be called “Charlie line“. Bankers and dealers would love it Cue the first ever serious RIPAS: I wonder if it will predict overcrowding on Crossrail 1 between Southall and Ealing Broadway? |
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Post by superteacher on Feb 23, 2016 18:57:36 GMT
There was me thinking the name "Crossrail" was done and dusted. . .
Crossrail makes total sense with the name reflecting the route and purpose of the line.
This will cost money, and whilst council services are being squeezed in so called times of austerity, it's good to know that the powers that be can find money to waste on gimmicks like that. I am not a republican and have no axe to grind with the monarchy, but this is just stupid.
So will the forthcoming engineering works now say "service suspended due to Elizabeth line works" . . .
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Post by patrickb on Feb 23, 2016 20:00:23 GMT
Wow, so original of TfL. The E-li-za-beth Line, that rolls of the tongue nicely, he he NOT!  I imagine that the naming of Crossrail lines will be seen from an internal aspect only. From the point of view of LU and LO, I can see all lines regardless of name being shown as 'Crossrail'. I guess you could compare it to Tramlink, from a map point of view, it's one line, but is actually split into four. I too would agree that giving the line a name in place of having Crossrail 1, 2 etc.. would look better From a personal point of view, Crossrail shouldn't mix in with LU, but then again, it's not a million miles away from the SSL's. The Conversion of the ELL is a good example for this. Speaking of ELL, will LO Lines be officially renamed or will Tfl stay tangled in their orange web? |
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 23, 2016 20:40:19 GMT
Well, that's the precedent set now, anyway.
So,Crossrail 2 on completion around 2028 becoming the Camilla Line?
And Crossrail 3, sometime in 2035/6, becoming the Catherine Line?
Odds on request from betferret!
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 23, 2016 21:17:32 GMT
I was particularly impressed to see that funding has been secured to extend the Northern Line to Liverpool Street. Edit: It has just been pointed out to me that Moorgate and Liverpool Street will be linked, hence the Northern Line |
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Post by superteacher on Feb 23, 2016 21:22:02 GMT
I was particularly impressed to see that funding has been secured to extend the Northern Line to Liverpool Street. That's because when Crossrail (sorry, Elizabeth line) opens, Moorgate and Liverpool Street will be linked as one station, rather like Bank and Monument. |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 23, 2016 21:24:53 GMT
I was particularly impressed to see that funding has been secured to extend the Northern Line to Liverpool Street. That's because when Crossrail (sorry, Elizabeth line) opens, Moorgate and Liverpool Street will be linked as one station, rather like Bank and Monument. Ah of course, makes perfect sense, thanks. oops |
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Post by Chris W on Feb 23, 2016 21:26:25 GMT
[Admin hat off]
To be fair we do have the Victoria Line, yet this name was given posthumously.
This comes across to me as being somewhat sycophantic. Anyone who suggested that TfL name the line after HM The Queen is, IMO, displaying all the characteristics of a child trying to please. My eldest does this all the time when he is feeling insecure, in the hope that he will get an award in the form of praise.
Its a classic on psychological blogs and guides regarding human behaviours...
Somebody wants credit, maybe a knighthood, a CBE, MBE or whatever... and is showing insecurity...
[/Admin Hat back on]
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 23, 2016 21:27:01 GMT
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 23, 2016 21:30:26 GMT
That's because when Crossrail (sorry, Elizabeth line) opens, Moorgate and Liverpool Street will be linked as one station, rather like Bank and Monument.
Ah, just so one's corgis can use the travellator on one's own line when one ceremonially interchanges.
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Feb 23, 2016 21:33:00 GMT
It looks awful, it sounds awful and I for one am thoroughly disappointed by it. Crossrail was simple and the whole reason of using TFL Rail branding initially was to protect the Crossrail brand. So clearly the brand is well liked by the public, so why change it? For once I really do hope there is a public outcry to keep the name as it is. But it's probably too late for that.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Feb 23, 2016 22:07:35 GMT
Crossrail is fundamentally different to the Underground - it's designed and built on a larger scale, it's more of an express service (in central London, ironically the opposite will be true on the runs out to Reading and Shenfield), and its boundaries go much further than any Underground line. It is actually rather like the Metropolitan Line in many respects. Larger scale? Both use Main line sized trains Express? Number of stations in Zones 1-3 ten Further out? Reading is not much further out than Chesham, and if you include the Watford and Amersham lines there is probably more Metropolitan mileage outside Greater London than there is Crossrail/Lizzie I see your point, however let's hope Crossrail is faster and more reliable than the Met Line. The latter has slipped quite a bit from the days when it was the premier line. Nowadays my vision of the Met is very slow, very prone to delays due one failure or another, and half the line shut almost every weekend. The fact that many commuters from the Amersham end choose Chiltern speaks for itself, even if the trade-off is short diesel trains and being deposited at Marylebone. Perhaps I'm expecting too much from Crossrail, however my vision is a rapid fast railway with high-capacity frequent trains and capacious stations, with excellent reliability. Maybe disappointment will set in if it ends up being more like London Overground. I suppose none of this really matters because people will use the map to choose the most suitable route, like today. Somehow Elizabeth Line just doesn't sound right for it, and I don't think it ever will. |
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Post by thc on Feb 23, 2016 22:19:43 GMT
It'll be the "Lizzy line" in no time and "sweaty Betty" in high summer.  In all seriousness it's an appalling idea from a Mayor who firstly backed Brexit to bolster his bid for the Tory leadership and now so nakedly wants a gong. Utterly risible. THC |
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Post by Chris W on Feb 23, 2016 22:21:52 GMT
I'm speechless...!!! So as part of the marketing material TfL has uploaded an image of a silhouetted female crossing the road towards the entrance of Seven Kings ( badly photo-shopped/CGI) about to be run over by an Audi TT driver... So this is after announcing that accidents/casualties of London's roads are reducing.... Wonderful !!!! Fantastic....!!!! |
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Post by superteacher on Feb 23, 2016 22:27:38 GMT
It'll be the "Lizzy line" in no time and "sweaty Betty" in high summer. In all seriousness it's an appalling idea from a Mayor who firstly backed Brexit to bolster his bid for the Tory leadership and now so nakedly wants a gong. Utterly risible. THC
As for "Sweaty Betty", the class 345 trains will have air con, so hopefully that name won't be necessary! |
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 23, 2016 22:31:25 GMT
I'm speechless...!!! So as part of the marketing material TfL has uploaded an image of a silhouetted female crossing the road towards the entrance of Seven Kings ( badly photo-shopped/CGI) about to be run over by an Audi TT driver... So this is after announcing that accidents/casualties of London's roads are reducing.... Wonderful !!!! Fantastic....!!!! Do you think someone didn't tell the marketing suits about this until 9pm last night? Or maybe it's the diet in Seven Kings. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 23, 2016 22:40:42 GMT
As for "Sweaty Betty", the class 345 trains will have air con, so hopefully that name won't be necessary! Until there's a power failure. Given the tendency for builders to put drills through tunnel roofs, the results could be interesting when the live rail is a. at the top of the tunnel b. carrying nearly 40 times the voltage |
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Post by superteacher on Feb 23, 2016 22:42:38 GMT
As for "Sweaty Betty", the class 345 trains will have air con, so hopefully that name won't be necessary! Until there's a power failure. Given the tendency for builders to put drills through tunnel roofs, the results could be interesting when the live rail is a. at the top of the tunnel b. carrying nearly 40 times the voltage That might be a shock to the system . . |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 23, 2016 22:57:59 GMT
Like others here I am somewhat underwhelmed. Yet in some respects it makes sense for the Crossrail lines to be given their own identities. Thameslink is a Crossrail line, of sorts, and so is this. As with Paris both are RER type services with one operated by the main national network and the other by the main urban metro operator.
This way when (if) Crossrail 2 and 3 are built so passengers will beenfit from easily identifiable names - rather than the confusing mess that is London Overground and the DLR. At least Tramlink has route numbers!
I just hope that TfL does not keep trying to "empire build" and remembers that they only own some of the tracks used by Lizzie Line (sic) trains, and that the other tracks are also used by other trains (both passenger and freight) which have just as much right to be there as their trains.
The name S-Line could have been used here, with S representing suburban. The Met could have ended up with that moniker too. I agree about not wanting to be seen as emulating Berlin (national pride) but S-Bahn type names are also used in Switzerland, Denmark (Copenhagen) and possibly elsewhere too. So they are not just a German marketing name.
Because TfL dont just plan to make all trains "all stations" but are also adding an extra station (Whitechapel) I am already resigned to slower journeys than are presently possible.
As for Liverpool St- Moorgate becoming one station, this means that it will be possible to be charged a Zone 1 train fare for walking from one to t'other. Or if you are wise you'll either hop on a SubSurface train or stay outside the fares paid zone and walk along the local streets - as I was doing decades ago when I worked in the area.
I wonder if HM Queen will still be with us when her namesake line opens?
Simon
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Post by snoggle on Feb 24, 2016 1:13:43 GMT
Like others here I am somewhat underwhelmed. Yet in some respects it makes sense for the Crossrail lines to be given their own identities. Thameslink is a Crossrail line, of sorts, and so is this. As with Paris both are RER type services with one operated by the main national network and the other by the main urban metro operator. This way when (if) Crossrail 2 and 3 are built so passengers will beenfit from easily identifiable names - rather than the confusing mess that is London Overground and the DLR. At least Tramlink has route numbers! I just hope that TfL does not keep trying to "empire build" and remembers that they only own some of the tracks used by Lizzie Line (sic) trains, and that the other tracks are also used by other trains (both passenger and freight) which have just as much right to be there as their trains. The name S-Line could have been used here, with S representing suburban. The Met could have ended up with that moniker too. I agree about not wanting to be seen as emulating Berlin (national pride) but S-Bahn type names are also used in Switzerland, Denmark (Copenhagen) and possibly elsewhere too. So they are not just a German marketing name. Because TfL dont just plan to make all trains "all stations" but are also adding an extra station (Whitechapel) I am already resigned to slower journeys than are presently possible. As for Liverpool St- Moorgate becoming one station, this means that it will be possible to be charged a Zone 1 train fare for walking from one to t'other. Or if you are wise you'll either hop on a SubSurface train or stay outside the fares paid zone and walk along the local streets - as I was doing decades ago when I worked in the area. I wonder if HM Queen will still be with us when her namesake line opens? Simon Strictly speaking Crossrail will not be run by the urban metro operator (I assume you mean TfL). It's contracted out like every other National Rail service. It's just that TfL write the specification. It will be, on the new section, and remain, on the old ones, a National Rail service no matter what it is called. Paris has three models of operation - "A" run by RATP, "B" run by RATP and SNCF with operation split at Gare du Nord, "C", "D" and "E" all run by SNCF IIRC. Of course this ludicrous sychophantic decision could open up all sorts of issues. It will be the first service on the National Rail network identified by a person's name. In the rare instances where there are familiar names for lines or services it tends to be geographic (East Coast Main Line) or possibly harking back to the pre-grouping operator (Great Western). There may be some bits of local marketing using local names (e.g East Anglia rural lines) but I can't think of a NR service named after a person. (I'm sure I'll be duly corrected). So are TfL now going to inflict stupid person based names on us for the rest of the Overground network rather than doing the logical thing of using the old historical names? Will any transferred lines south of the Thames also be tainted by stupid branding? Will every Mayor from now on be tempted to name a rail route 10 weeks before they quit office?  Questions, questions. And imagine being a poor sap who has to make announcements for a future Elizabeth Line Crossrail service. That's going to get wearing isn't it? |
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Post by djlynch on Feb 24, 2016 1:15:25 GMT
Why not call it the 'Crossrail Elizabeth' line? Makes more sense to me. Until I saw the TfL mockup images linked earlier in the thread, I had been hoping for something like that. Why not treat Underground, Overground, and Crossrail as three interconnected networks where each major service retains its own line identity in addition to the network's identity? It works for the Underground as is, and the Overground desperately needs it. |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Feb 24, 2016 1:53:22 GMT
Like others here I am somewhat underwhelmed. Yet in some respects it makes sense for the Crossrail lines to be given their own identities. Thameslink is a Crossrail line, of sorts, and so is this. As with Paris both are RER type services with one operated by the main national network and the other by the main urban metro operator. This way when (if) Crossrail 2 and 3 are built so passengers will beenfit from easily identifiable names - rather than the confusing mess that is London Overground and the DLR. At least Tramlink has route numbers! I just hope that TfL does not keep trying to "empire build" and remembers that they only own some of the tracks used by Lizzie Line (sic) trains, and that the other tracks are also used by other trains (both passenger and freight) which have just as much right to be there as their trains. The name S-Line could have been used here, with S representing suburban. The Met could have ended up with that moniker too. I agree about not wanting to be seen as emulating Berlin (national pride) but S-Bahn type names are also used in Switzerland, Denmark (Copenhagen) and possibly elsewhere too. So they are not just a German marketing name. Because TfL dont just plan to make all trains "all stations" but are also adding an extra station (Whitechapel) I am already resigned to slower journeys than are presently possible. As for Liverpool St- Moorgate becoming one station, this means that it will be possible to be charged a Zone 1 train fare for walking from one to t'other. Or if you are wise you'll either hop on a SubSurface train or stay outside the fares paid zone and walk along the local streets - as I was doing decades ago when I worked in the area. I wonder if HM Queen will still be with us when her namesake line opens? Simon Strictly speaking Crossrail will not be run by the urban metro operator (I assume you mean TfL). It's contracted out like every other National Rail service. It's just that TfL write the specification. It will be, on the new section, and remain, on the old ones, a National Rail service no matter what it is called. Paris has three models of operation - "A" run by RATP, "B" run by RATP and SNCF with operation split at Gare du Nord, "C", "D" and "E" all run by SNCF IIRC. Of course this ludicrous sychophantic decision could open up all sorts of issues. It will be the first service on the National Rail network identified by a person's name. In the rare instances where there are familiar names for lines or services it tends to be geographic (East Coast Main Line) or possibly harking back to the pre-grouping operator (Great Western). There may be some bits of local marketing using local names (e.g East Anglia rural lines) but I can't think of a NR service named after a person. (I'm sure I'll be duly corrected). So are TfL now going to inflict stupid person based names on us for the rest of the Overground network rather than doing the logical thing of using the old historical names? Will any transferred lines south of the Thames also be tainted by stupid branding? Will every Mayor from now on be tempted to name a rail route 10 weeks before they quit office? Questions, questions. And imagine being a poor sap who has to make announcements for a future Elizabeth Line Crossrail service. That's going to get wearing isn't it? The only National Rail service I can readily think of is the Robin Hood Line (Nottingham-Worksop), and even that is tenuous as the name is also used widely to refer to the general area. Agree with everything you say. Overground is a strange concept in that it's quite clearly National Rail, especially where it shares the same routes, but TFL goes to great lengths to pretend it's not. This works satisfactorily on a completely self-contained route, but I see it being a nuisance where other services operate - the result being disjointed timetables and ticket arrangements, and some awkward situations - like Cheshunt where one all-stations to Liverpool Street train is Overground and another is National Rail. Whether all this really matters is open to debate, but arrangements where routes are segregated along political lines rather than operational are not efficient, and probably ultimately not best for passengers either (I strongly suspect Southeastern could end up being a mess in this respect). If anything Elizabeth Line undersells Crossrail as being just another Underground line. I'm surprised TFL have chosen to do this to be honest, but then again I think you're right and it may have been imposed on them. It doesn't look right on the roundel, and it will be the only 'line' to have its own roundel and colour scheme. Maybe we'll get used to it. |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 24, 2016 7:27:53 GMT
I think the mockups I linked earlier are completely incompatible with existing TFL standards. For example, roundels on trains always simply read "Underground" and never the actual line, ditto for the Overground, whereas the mockups show the rounders on trains and stations reading "Elizabeth Line".
I think the Underground, Overground and Crossrail should be kept as distinct brands, as is the case for the former two, whereas this insane decision now makes it more confusing, as it's not immediately obvious if the Lizzie line is part of crossrail or not.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 24, 2016 7:33:29 GMT
As for Liverpool St- Moorgate becoming one station, this means that it will be possible to be charged a Zone 1 train fare for walking from one to t'other. Simon As you already can for Bank/Monument or waterloo/Southwark via Waterloo East |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 24, 2016 7:59:03 GMT
It will be the first service on the National Rail network identified by a person's name. lists Bishop, Gainsborough, Ivanhoe, Robin Hood, Tarka and Waverley, (all right, most of those are fictional characters - and one of them is an otter) But as the Gainsborough Ljne is in Suffolk and not Lincolnshire I assume it's named after the artist and not the town) |
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Questions, questions. 
