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Post by peterc on Feb 13, 2016 11:30:29 GMT
Considering how traffic has built up I can see that a four month shut down is a bit of a PR own goal. Forgetting the technicalities and economics of the issue for a moment I am sure that the general public's preference would be to just add some extra coaches to the existing trains to deal with overcrowding.
No need to worry about freight then, the road hauliers will keep it after a shutdown like that.
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Post by domh245 on Feb 13, 2016 12:04:03 GMT
I am sure that the general public's preference would be to just add some extra coaches to the existing trains to deal with overcrowding. If only it were that simple! The 172s are now an obsolete design, Bombardier won't (can't!) make any more of them so the only options would be new build (really expensive) or poaching other 172s off of Chiltern. The problem with trying to poach rolling stock off of other operators is that there just isn't the capacity to do so. Chiltern recently took some 170s from First Transpennine Express, to much anger in the North to strengthen their own trains, so the likelihood of them giving up trains is practically 0. The only logical conclusion is to get new build EMUs, which not only is better for the environment, performance, capacity, ambience, etc, but also releases the 172s to go and strengthen other trains, they will most likely find themselves with Chiltern! Sawb, why do freight trains ex LT&S have to run at night anyway? There are surely not that many of them per day. And if the GEML crossovers are still there, as I think they are, why can they not be kept until 2018? A lot of the trains ex LT&S go all over the country, looking at a list of trains scheduled to pass Harringay Park Jn on Tuesday night, you have trains heading to Bristol, Garston, Leeds, and Daventry, and in the opposite direction, trains from Crewe and Cardiff. These trains have to run overnight because on the mainlines, there really isn't the room for them to run during the day. There are some daytime freight trains, but they are few and far between. For example there is a Southampton to Leeds Freightliner Intermodal train that leaves Southampton at 2254 and arrives in Leeds at 0714, if it ran any later, it would soon start interfering with the passenger trains on the ECML, and even then, if it were to run late, it could well find itself being looped for a few hours to allow the rush hour to happen. The Rail Network spans (almost) the whole country, and everything needs to be planned with one eye on the bigger picture.
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Post by stapler on Feb 13, 2016 13:42:57 GMT
Hadn't realised the density of freight traffic over the T&H/T&FG! Are all these ex Thameshaven branch/London Gateway? So where/how are these freights going to be diverted when the line is closed for 8 months?
Quite a lot of daytime freight on the GEML via the North London.
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Post by domh245 on Feb 13, 2016 14:43:19 GMT
Hadn't realised the density of freight traffic over the T&H/T&FG! Are all these ex Thameshaven branch/London Gateway? So where/how are these freights going to be diverted when the line is closed for 8 months? Quite a lot of daytime freight on the GEML via the North London. Some but not all. Looking at the same time period but for the Tuesday just gone, there were 7 trains (2 of which were running about 2 hours late), and a number of cancellations. Looking through the list, there are a number of paths to/from West Thurrock, Tilbury, London Gateway, Purfleet, and Dagenham. As for the question of how will they cope with the line closed, there is often more than 1 route between 2 places on the map. Coming back to the Southampton - Leeds freightliner example, last Tuesday it ran via Oxford and Derby, rather than GOBLIN and ECML. This happens with a lot of trains, but for those that can't run via an alternative route, they will be compensated by Network Rail, and I would guess that they would liaise with their clients about alternative routes and modes.
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Post by stapler on Feb 13, 2016 15:09:08 GMT
If as sawb says the crossovers on GEML to allow this ex-LTS freight to run via Victoria Park Jc, there will be an awful lot of freight lost to road in that 8 months, unless (!) they go into Fenchurch and run round!
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Post by snoggle on Feb 13, 2016 21:14:07 GMT
Snoggle, it all depends whether you're an engineering apparatchick or someone who uses the line. The Walthamstow blockade at 3 weeks was one thing, months on end is quite different I use the line. I am not an engineer but have worked with a wide range of them across LU and in suppliers. I have also worked with a load of different project managers as I've been the client accountable for millions of pounds of public money. I think I have bit of insight but not a lot given LU is different to the main line. I have acknowledged that the blockades will be a pain as they were on the NLL when it was closed for months at a time in different phases. We got a new railway off the back of that and we will get a substantially improved railway on the GOBLIN when NR and TfL are done. I just think it is far far too late after the years of battling to get electrification approved and funded for "armchair critics" (here and elsewhere) to be talking from a position of little knowledge and suggesting that the blockades shouldn't happen and, even worse, that we don't electrify the line. People seem to have short memories and have forgotten that the electrification announcement was cancelled at the last minute and that it has taken years of concerted lobbying from a load of politicians (and others) to get government to provide the funding. That coalition of politicians won't exist after May because many Assembly members are standing down meaning all the knowledge and experience will be dissipated. If for some dreadful reason someone persuaded the DfT to pause the work for it to be "reviewed" it would be nigh on impossible to recreate the political impetus to restart the work. This is a once in a lifetime upgrade for the line which will give it the basis to prosper and grow into the future. We just need to get on with the work and hope that nothing serious is found that delays the work. And I think that has to be my final word in terms of debating "is it worth it? is it being done efficiently etc etc?".
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 14, 2016 21:27:36 GMT
Considering how traffic has built up I can see that a four month shut down is a bit of a PR own goal. Forgetting the technicalities and economics of the issue for a moment I am sure that the general public's preference would be to just add some extra coaches to the existing trains to deal with overcrowding. No need to worry about freight then, the road hauliers will keep it after a shutdown like that. I understand the reasoning for the line closure and agree that it is needed. At least it will not be as long as the ELL and I hope that (unlike the ELL) work will commence immediately and there will be regular public updates of how things are progressing, what works have been completed, etc. Apart from anything else this is good public PR. It will also counter cynical comments by people like me who wonder whether the works have been given more time than is actually needed (again with ELL in mind and based on comments made by local people who were watching progress - and lack of, especially in the first year after closure). Where I am less impressed (to put it mildly) is on learning the information in the quote above. Yes TfL are keen to ensure that Crossrail suffers the fewest possible delays from track issues and other trains using the line but the national railway network is not just for London's urban passengers... there is already much public disquiet at the amount of freight that travels by road and it is hard to see how de-scoping the railway system in ways which reduce capacity even further and actually inhibit the ability of the system to even maintain existing non-passenger flows (let along benefit from resilience in case of issues, such a broken down train blocking one of several possible routes) is going to be of benefit. Crossrail could benefit from these linking tracks as well, especially at times of disruption, planned weekend works etc. Said from personal experience using this route for several decades. Simon
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Post by stapler on Feb 14, 2016 21:45:43 GMT
SPS, quite agree with you. There is still the post-Beeching minimal railway ethos alive and well. The Hall Farm curve was lifted, it was said, to save £10000 on the Lea Valley resignalling costs and for the £500 scrap value of the (virtually new) rails and electrification masts. Sheer lunacy.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 22, 2016 13:30:54 GMT
Some extra info on the work scope during the blockade and on rail replacement bus services. Full credit to the Barking Gospel Oak User Group - the info is on their message board. Interesting that the bit across Ferry Lane is not served by RRS buses and passengers will be forced on to the Victoria Line if making any through journeys. That's going to be a delight for people at peak times. Let's hope there's no service suspensions or planned engineering works on the Vic necessitating *three* buses being used.
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Post by stapler on Feb 22, 2016 17:23:31 GMT
A real mistake not extending the RRS along Ferry Lane/Forest Rd. Cramming onto the Victoria Line just isn't on.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 24, 2016 10:59:28 GMT
Another little snippet for the electrification project is contained in the Project Approvals paper going to the F&P Cttee next week. Platform extensions, extra canopies and gatelines at three GOBLIN stations (not named). A snip at a total cost of nearly £17m! content.tfl.gov.uk/fpc-160302-07-project-monitoring.pdf
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Mar 4, 2016 13:05:32 GMT
What will happen to the DMUs currently operating the service?
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Post by domh245 on Mar 4, 2016 13:21:20 GMT
What will happen to the DMUs currently operating the service? Most likely to go and join their sister fleet at Chiltern
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Post by snoggle on Mar 21, 2016 1:05:19 GMT
A couple of relevant Mayor's Answers on the closure and service afterwards. Something tells me Mr Biggs' questions were supplied by the line User Group!!
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Post by snoggle on Apr 6, 2016 12:20:37 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Apr 28, 2016 22:00:21 GMT
Took a ride from Blackhorse Rd to Barking this afternoon. Noticed the following.
1. Several metal foundations for the electrification masts on the section before the line passes on to the viaduct structure.
2. Lots of "engineering marks" on station platforms (esp disused sections) for future works.
3. Tree and vegetation clearance near the approach to the Bakers Arms bridge / viaduct.
4. Fence and security work on the approach to Barking Station.
I also spotted a few days ago a couple of electrification masts near the crossing of the reservoirs near T Hale. Murphys are also establishing a work compound by the Thames Water buildings at Ferry Lane (same place where the team doing the bridge works was based).
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Post by dazz285 on Apr 29, 2016 6:03:51 GMT
Apparently when the shut down happens in June the 2 old bridges that are left in the area near Ferry Lane are being replaced as well. Info from canalrivertrust.org.ukRailway Bridge (Bridge 23), Lee Navigation, Tottenham 5th Dec 2016 7:00am to 15th Jan 2017 7:00pm During the 2016/17 winter, Network Rail are planning to replace the railway bridge over the Lee Navigation in Tottenham (Bridge 23). This will see disruption to navigation and closure of the towpath.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 29, 2016 8:21:59 GMT
Apparently when the shut down happens in June the 2 old bridges that are left in the area near Ferry Lane are being replaced as well. Info from canalrivertrust.org.ukRailway Bridge (Bridge 23), Lee Navigation, Tottenham 5th Dec 2016 7:00am to 15th Jan 2017 7:00pm During the 2016/17 winter, Network Rail are planning to replace the railway bridge over the Lee Navigation in Tottenham (Bridge 23). This will see disruption to navigation and closure of the towpath. Thanks for that. I have been wondering if they were going to be replaced given the other smaller bridges have been dealt with. The speed restriction there is not helpful on what should be a reasonably brisk run so it's good it is finally going to be fixed. Interesting that it's going to take them 5-6 weeks to do the work and that it is towards the end of the overall blockade period. It also suggests that wiring of that part of the line is going to be towards the end of the blockade.
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Post by snoggle on May 4, 2016 10:53:03 GMT
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Post by stapler on May 4, 2016 10:59:14 GMT
What a hopeless map - not even showing the interchange at Mile End, surely the best way from anywhere in Waltham Forest to anywhere in Barking & Dagenham!
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Post by Chris M on May 4, 2016 16:47:47 GMT
It seems a bit poor that they aren't adding 1-2 minutes to the replacement bus journey to go via Leyton or Leytonstone Central line stations (the route to the latter would also get them closer to Leytonstone High Road station) for even better interchange.
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Post by snoggle on May 4, 2016 17:09:52 GMT
It seems a bit poor that they aren't adding 1-2 minutes to the replacement bus journey to go via Leyton or Leytonstone Central line stations (the route to the latter would also get them closer to Leytonstone High Road station) for even better interchange. I suspect they are trying to avoid the RRS being overwhelmed with people wanting a free ride from Leyton Midland Rd to Leyton Tube. The other issue locally is that bridges on the GOBLIN have poor clearance over local roads hence why the W15 and W16 are run with single deckers. The RRS will have a tortuous route to avoid the low bridges. I'm more bemused as to why the RRS is going via East Ham station which means it's guaranteed to get bogged down in traffic. I'd have thought it more practical to use the A406 between Barking and Ilford and then along to Woodgrange Park.
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Post by jswallow on May 4, 2016 20:40:16 GMT
The A406 is murder though - I regularly spend 15 minutes plus trying to get off it at Ilford. The route via East Ham uses bus lanes for a lot of it so maybe that's TfL's logic (and I know that's a misnomer). And going via Leyton or Leytonstone would easily add 5-10 minutes as well. Traffic in Waltham Forest is hell, and only getting worse.
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Post by patrickb on May 4, 2016 21:21:20 GMT
South Tottenham and Seven Sisters Station are five minutes apart. This would be useful for travellers on Mon - Fri services. The first thing that will come to mind to anyone looking at this map will be "go to Highbury & Islington" "Victoria Line" "North London Line"... Because the three aren't crowded enough as it is....
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on May 5, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
As a regular driver on the rail replacement buses for Sullivans, the whole route is an operational nightmare. Some days it's taken 1hr 35 to get from Barking to Woodgrange Park. the official route is via East Ham, but the signposted route is via the A406. As for the few minutes to go via Leytonstone Central Line, that too adds considerably to the journey time, up to 10 minutes. The proposed route via a more direct way makes more sense for the overall journey time.
the other Saturday I piloted a new driver round the route, nd a round trip Barking-South Tottenham and back took 5hr 45, putting the driver outside his driving hours had it not been for a short break at Stamford Hill garage! Sunday timings have been known to be just as bad.
Mile End Road is also a nightmare with all the cycle lane roadworks going on along there. A couple of months ago doing Tower Hill-Barking it took 45 minutes from Tower Hill to Aldgate! I got turned at Stratford.
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Post by stapler on May 6, 2016 7:02:54 GMT
Most instructive comment from Roy. Moral - avoid the RR service altogether!
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Post by snoggle on May 6, 2016 7:43:07 GMT
Most instructive comment from Roy. Moral - avoid the RR service altogether! th I am sure Roy will correct me but there is some context to add. There have been a fair number of road works at key locations in East London over recent months that would have screwed the RRS. Lodge Lane flyover works in recent weeks have tipped Barking into a logjam with queues stretching for miles. There have also been a number of works and incidents on the A406 which has also caused massive jams over a wide area. I've been caught in some of them just going to Ilford and back on the bus. There is no doubt, though, that the RRS will always be a difficult route to run and I expect people will not make a lot of use of it. They'll overload existing rail, tube and bus services and I suspect TfL may be forced to put extra resources on some bus routes once alternative travel patterns become obvious.
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Post by snoggle on May 6, 2016 13:35:51 GMT
Interesting they're doing track lowering at Upper Holloway over the next two weekends. I also hadn't realised there was a swish enclosed waiting area at Upper Holloway on the w/b platform. (see video clip in the tweet)
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Post by dazz285 on May 6, 2016 14:15:13 GMT
Should be fun telling passengers to step up to the platform from the train as the track might be lower...
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Post by stapler on May 6, 2016 21:30:32 GMT
This used to happen on the Central Line when the outer reaches still retained a "compromise height" for platforms built for the GER. I have a feeling from memory the compromise platform height was 1ft 8ins, but you certainly got used to the small step up to the platforms
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