pitdiver
No longer gainfully employed
Posts: 439
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Post by pitdiver on Dec 14, 2015 21:08:50 GMT
Excuse me for my cynicism but it seems to me that some recent recruits see LUL through rose coloured specs. Try as others have hinted standing by a ticket machine on a Friday or Saturday night after 1800hrs, yes 1800 hrs at somewhere like Westbourne Pk giving advice to "customers " on how to purchase a ticket you would be told in no uncertain terms where to stick your ticket When I worked there on the late turn the foreman would go in his office and lock the door. I would watch the tele as no one ever wanted to buy a ticket. Perhaps all thses new recruits have been brainwashed at Ashfield House.
I say bring back the armoured glass and the bomb proof booking office doors.
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Post by revupminster on Dec 14, 2015 21:21:37 GMT
Excuse me for my cynicism but it seems to me that some recent recruits see LUL through rose coloured specs. Try as others have hinted standing by a ticket machine on a Friday or Saturday night after 1800hrs, yes 1800 hrs at somewhere like Westbourne Pk giving advice to "customers " on how to purchase a ticket you would be told in no uncertain terms where to stick your ticket When I worked there on the late turn the foreman would go in his office and lock the door. I would watch the tele as no one ever wanted to buy a ticket. Perhaps all thses new recruits have been brainwashed at Ashfield House. I say bring back the armoured glass and the bomb proof booking office doors. I don't think it is anything new. When I first joined there were all these old boys saying "thank god I am retiring". I said I would never be the same as I thought it was a wonderful job. Years later I was the same and took early retirement as soon as I could. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 14, 2015 21:25:17 GMT
What happens to a passenger now who loses his oyster card or the oyster card stops working? Can a Station Assistant help him at one of the machines? In both situations a passenger should obtain a new Oyster card first and foremost. If it is registered via Oyster the easiest thing is to contact the helpdesk to have products transferred to the new card. However, if the card has failed, SAs (with appropriate training) can transfer products over as a temporary measure, with the customer then having to contact the helpdesk for a permanent fix. Where do you get a new Oyster card from these days? It's a shame that rather than going to my local ticket office and the process taking about two minutes, I have to sit in a phone queue, and then go to a specified gateline the next day to sort it out. I presume that LU are refunding excess fares paid in the time taken to sort this out? I disagree. I am sure that you and your colleagues are diligent professionals. But this does not avoid the times when 4 or 5 station attendants can be standing watching a queue of people for the machines, and I have seen this increase in general since the closure of ticket offices. It is particularly galling when the only advice the combined force of three station attendants can give you is to dial a phone number and hope somebody answers it, when you previously spoke to one of the chaps and it was sorted. I struggle to think of a time when there wasn't a queue for the ticket office - granted, some quieter stations might have struggled to see the benefit of retaining them, but the likes of King's Cross were always busy. It is also not beyond the realms of possibility that the way the ticket offices were run could have been looked at, to allow an extra person to open a window when it's busy etc - as per how Tescos will open an extra checkout if it's busy. Do Chiltern's guards bother inspecting tickets? If so, presumably a ticket is obtainable from them. Some TOCs have started to adopt silly policies in such examples e.g. that the passenger must go to the guard's compartment to find him if he doesn't come around. It is noticeable that many TOCs surrounding London simply do not bother checking tickets - which I presume is a function of increased smartcard use and short distance between stations. The majority of Chiltern's operations within London are run Driver Only, so there is no guard. Were there a guard on the service this is your 'first opportunity', even if you have to seek him out. There's nothing "silly" about that, and was standard practice on several companies outside of London last time I checked.[/quote] Good luck trying to get hold of the guard on non-corridor stock! Many, if they do not come around, will have reasons for not doing so. I shall not digress further as per subsequent post. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 15, 2015 0:17:00 GMT
Probably called the Wild West because it was like working at frontier towns. Barking to Dagenham has become very eastern European. As I mentioned Elm Park was the drug capital emanating then from the Elm Park Hotel which when it was a hotel was a very nice place. The phone in the ticket hall had to be made for outgoing calls only as it was continually ringing in the evening with customers placing orders. Some one would appear from nowhere to answer the phone. Upminster Bridge had a different problem with "flashers" because of the proximity of Sacred Heart Catholic Girls school whose skirts, once the Nuns had retired, over the years raised from below the knee to well above. Upminster used to attract shoplifters especially in the charity shops as the elderly volunteers had no chance against them. I lived in Upminster for 29 years hence my name but have been gone for a few years so I expect all the problems have been sorted out. I was back in August for lunch and go and see West Ham. I'd certainly heard that that bit of line was christened "frontier country" or the "wild west". Hadn't heard of those specific examples you quote tho'.   |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Dec 15, 2015 0:53:45 GMT
I do find fault with your "habitually loiter around" comment, though. Staff are *far* more useful outside of the offices. If there are no passengers requiring help on the machines, those staff are able to (And frequently do) assist with other matters at the station as required, often helping out staff and not stretching the workforce. If they are stuck behind a window, and there's no customers, they're stuck there. That is not of use to anyone if there's a run on the gateline of people needing assistance (It happens daily). Generally speaking my colleagues and I at King's Cross are very proactive if we have a duty that places us on the machines. Sorry if this is going to "annoy" you but my perception of going through ticket halls these days, especially busy ones like KX, ranges from one extreme to the other. I either see no staff around despite looking for them or they are in clusters at a gateline having a lovely chat amongst themselves. On going through Kings Cross I've seen no staff whatsoever at the ticket machines or the opposite of massive queues with one staff member shouting at queuing passengers to move to a machine. Now I know some passengers *might* need some encouragement to move to a machine but since when was shouting appropriate? I also note that your comment suggests there might be situations when queue times do exceed 20 minutes - I was shocked to see queues so long at the Northern ticket hall that they were doubled back on themselves and nearly blocking the gateline. Something's seriously wrong if a pretty spacious ticket hall can almost become blocked because of ticket queues. One aspect that seriously concerns me about these changes is that closing ticket offices has removed a load of options for passengers that in the past were simplicity themselves. You asked the clerk to do something and they did it. Now no one at a station can do it. Where's the info for the passengers to tell them this? Examples are buy an Annual Bus and Tram Pass, have a Gold Card issued and discount set in one transaction, get higher value refunds, get a proper print out of your Oyster card details etc. Someone sitting in a nice "process team" has decided that the way to treat passengers forking out massive sums of money is not to accept their business at stations at all! That's going to be fun in a couple of weeks with the usual ticket renewal surge. I'm sure you are diligent but not all LU workers are - for a whole load of reasons. I've worked with and managed some of them in times past! Having stood in ticket halls for hours on end doing customer service duties I know it can range from manic to deadly dull. On freezing cold nights out in the suburbs the temptation to "disappear" from public view must be very strong for some employees. Must admit I agree with all of this. It's all very well saying staff can assist with other things if there's no passengers to assist on the machines, however the moment staff are away from the machines then users are now left to fend for themselves. At least with a window you know there will be someone there. Observations at the stations I pass through regularly (including KX) suggests it's not uncommon to find no staff assisting at the machines, with massive queues in consequence. Meanwhile, Euston has been total chaos at certain times. The chaos around the ticket machines means it can take a ticket-holder several minutes to get from the station entrance to and through the gateline when busy. And Euston Square now boasts a nicely replica-tiled wall where the ticket office used to be. No idea if this is permanent, however now it's a pain to have more people congretating at the bottom of the stairwell (where the machines are) working out how to use the machine. Sometimes there's staff there, more often not. Hardly a pleasant workplace, standing at the bottom of a cold, windswept, noisy stairwell, breathing in fumes from the congested Euston Road. Not world-class. |
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286 
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 15, 2015 1:14:39 GMT
At Euston Sq the office Windows were in the best location for buying tickets, it's annoying that machines are in the worst.
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Post by camperdown9 on Dec 15, 2015 8:00:20 GMT
Hi
The other week I walked to Kings Cross in order to get the Victoria line down to Oxford Circus. When I got there I realised that there was no credit on my Oyster Card, so I went to find a machine to top up. Well all the machines were in use and there were maybe 20 people waiting. So in bad temper I decide to walk to Oxford Circus!
The problem with only have automated ticket machines in stations like Kings Cross is that a lot of people trying to buy tickets are not Londoners and many are from overseas. So when they come face to face with a ticket machine often they don't know what type of ticket to buy and they are unfamiliar with the machine. OK its not rocket science, but when you use a cash point frequently you know what buttons to press without really thinking too much. However when a customer comes to use a ticket machine that they haven't used before, it takes them longer to complete the transaction than it would for someone who uses the machine every day.
OK machines are cheaper than having ticket staff, but the machine can't offer advice and also the speed is limited to the speed that the customer can operate the machine. As many customers have no experience of using the machine it will be slow.
(Bit off topic. On Friday I went to Belfast flying with FlyBe from London City, I hadn't checked in online ((printer was out of ink as always)) and I had a bag to check in. Got to LCY and queued to use a check in machine, then queued to use a machine that checked the weight of the bag and issued a bag tag. Then queued to hand the bag over to a real live person who needed to check my boarding pass and id against the bag tag. Years ago this would all be handled by one person so in this case automation has just made things more complicated and slower.)
Alex
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Post by stapler on Dec 15, 2015 8:27:51 GMT
Agree with Camperdown - TOs should have been retained at stations where there are large numbers of people who are unfamiliar with the machines - eg all the London terminals and Heathrow. At suburban stations, it's not so much of a problem. Just a lack of forward thinking by LU. They could have saved 85% of the costs by doing so, and kept their reputation intact; instead, it's the like it or lump it mentality.
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Post by rsdworker on Dec 15, 2015 9:53:41 GMT
Agree with Camperdown - TOs should have been retained at stations where there are large numbers of people who are unfamiliar with the machines - eg all the London terminals and Heathrow. At suburban stations, it's not so much of a problem. Just a lack of forward thinking by LU. They could have saved 85% of the costs by doing so, and kept their reputation intact; instead, it's the like it or lump it mentality. i agree with it - its easy to keep travel centres or visitor centres = those would do same tasks of ticket offices but more staffed all times KX has vistor centre so people could went there to get tickets there |
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 15, 2015 9:55:57 GMT
Agree with Camperdown - TOs should have been retained at stations where there are large numbers of people who are unfamiliar with the machines - eg all the London terminals and Heathrow. At suburban stations, it's not so much of a problem. Just a lack of forward thinking by LU. They could have saved 85% of the costs by doing so, and kept their reputation intact; instead, it's the like it or lump it mentality. Ah, but those people queuing should have topped up online first, then just collected on the gateline, obviously ;-) |
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pitdiver
No longer gainfully employed
Posts: 439
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Post by pitdiver on Dec 15, 2015 10:35:42 GMT
Excuse me for my cynicism but it seems to me that some recent recruits see LUL through rose coloured specs. Try as others have hinted standing by a ticket machine on a Friday or Saturday night after 1800hrs, yes 1800 hrs at somewhere like Westbourne Pk giving advice to "customers " on how to purchase a ticket you would be told in no uncertain terms where to stick your ticket When I worked there on the late turn the foreman would go in his office and lock the door. I would watch the tele as no one ever wanted to buy a ticket. Perhaps all thses new recruits have been brainwashed at Ashfield House. I say bring back the armoured glass and the bomb proof booking office doors. I don't think it is anything new. When I first joined there were all these old boys saying "thank god I am retiring". I said I would never be the same as I thought it was a wonderful job. Years later I was the same and took early retirement as soon as I could.[/quote I got out of LUL as soon as I had the opportunity to. Although only as far as the LTM where I spent many happy years until I had the chance to take early retirement/VS. which I took as soon as I could. LUL might be 21st century but unfortunately the passengers aren't. Good luck to all those poor souls who have to take the flak in the ticket halls. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 15, 2015 10:45:40 GMT
The other week I walked to Kings Cross in order to get the Victoria line down to Oxford Circus. When I got there I realised that there was no credit on my Oyster Card, so I went to find a machine to top up. Well all the machines were in use and there were maybe 20 people waiting. So in bad temper I decide to walk to Oxford Circus! While not excusing the fact there were queues at KX it's interesting that you didn't consider finding a South Eastern or Thameslink ticket machine in KX or St Pancras (they can do Oyster top ups) or using an Oyster Ticket Stop to top up your card. You almost certainly walked past several Ticket Stops on the way to Oxford Circus. There are four in the immediate vicinity of Kings Cross. I'm not criticising you - it's just interesting that people sometimes don't perceive the alternatives that may be close by. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 15, 2015 11:12:04 GMT
You almost certainly walked past several Ticket Stops on the way to Oxford Circus. - it's just interesting that people sometimes don't perceive the alternatives that may be close by. those people queuing should have topped up online first, then just collected on the gateline, obviously ;-) Not obvious to out-of-towners, of which there will be a lot at any main line terminus. The only obvious place to buy a ticket for the Tube is - - a Tube station. Most people would no more expect to buy a Tube ticket (Oyster) at a newsagents than they would to buy a newspaper from a fishmonger. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 15, 2015 11:17:24 GMT
there is no guard. Were there a guard on the service this is your 'first opportunity', even if you have to seek him out. There's nothing "silly" about that, and was standard practice on several companies outside of London last time I checked.. . But how is the occasional (as distinct from regular) passenger supposed to know whether there is a guard to seek? One of the basic rules of hide-and-seek is that somebody is actually hiding. |
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Post by camperdown9 on Dec 15, 2015 13:10:50 GMT
The other week I walked to Kings Cross in order to get the Victoria line down to Oxford Circus. When I got there I realised that there was no credit on my Oyster Card, so I went to find a machine to top up. Well all the machines were in use and there were maybe 20 people waiting. So in bad temper I decide to walk to Oxford Circus! While not excusing the fact there were queues at KX it's interesting that you didn't consider finding a South Eastern or Thameslink ticket machine in KX or St Pancras (they can do Oyster top ups) or using an Oyster Ticket Stop to top up your card. You almost certainly walked past several Ticket Stops on the way to Oxford Circus. There are four in the immediate vicinity of Kings Cross. I'm not criticising you - it's just interesting that people sometimes don't perceive the alternatives that may be close by. Hi I have only recently became interested in underground trains and the London Underground. I don't work in the industry and though my knowledge of the subject is probably better than Joe Public's I am by no means an expert, unlike most people on this forum. I wasn't aware that you could top up an Oyster Card at a South Eastern or Thameslink ticket machine. I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't know anything about Ticket Stops. When I googled it they mainly seam to be independent retails and as traditionally they don't take debit cards, I tend to avoid them. I asked two friends if they new that you could top your oyster card up at some newsagents one of which said they did, but had never done so and the other wasn't aware either. So I guess you learn something everyday. However would an official TFL app that lets customers top up not be a good idea? Alex |
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Post by peterc on Dec 15, 2015 13:39:33 GMT
I don't think that the present technology can download the topup to a specific gateline in real time.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 15, 2015 18:02:45 GMT
I have only recently became interested in underground trains and the London Underground. I don't work in the industry and though my knowledge of the subject is probably better than Joe Public's I am by no means an expert, unlike most people on this forum. I wasn't aware that you could top up an Oyster Card at a South Eastern or Thameslink ticket machine. I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't know anything about Ticket Stops. When I googled it they mainly seam to be independent retails and as traditionally they don't take debit cards, I tend to avoid them. I asked two friends if they new that you could top your oyster card up at some newsagents one of which said they did, but had never done so and the other wasn't aware either. So I guess you learn something everyday. However would an official TFL app that lets customers top up not be a good idea? No need to embarrassed - just shows TfL don't really promote them very strongly. I had assumed you had cash and not a piece of plastic. Some newsagents will levy a card transaction fee because the banks charge them and they can't carry the cost separately. This harks back to my point about TfL not being honest with passengers about the valid choices that exist. The info sits on their website but who, other than ticketing geeks like me, sits and reads all that stuff or FOIs info from TfL that is never released publicly? Clearly LU doesn't want to lose revenue from its stations but at the same time it is denuding those stations of convenient facilities for some people who will be forced to take their trade elsewhere. I am sure this is why there is no active promotion of the fact that Overground stations do handle Oyster sales or that TOC passenger machines do top ups or that you can buy an Annual Bus and Tram Pass at an Oyster Ticket Stop but NOT, after this week, at any LU station. TfL really needs to act as the "impartial info provider" about ticketing but I fear it is compromised by the actions of its subsidiary companies and trading arrangements with third parties like the LOROL, Amey and the thousands of independents who run Ticket Stops. All those commission payments and money passing through their tills.  TfL have said they are not in the business of producing apps. They prefer to provide open data and then let the market provide apps. Clearly that's not an option with bank related details and the current Oyster system design doesn't allow for online immediate updating via an app. When Oyster moves to an account basis where the value is held in a "black box" computer and not on the Oyster card itself then I dare say TfL will allow online updating via mobile phones or even possibly via cash machines (as you can do for a mobile phone). Their clear preference is for as many people as possible to use Contactless Bank Cards because that saves TfL money and reduces the population of Oyster Cards. Unfortunately for TfL a significant proportion of people have discounted products, don't have access to contactless banking products or simply prefer to manage their travel costs separately via Oyster. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 6, 2016 10:49:48 GMT
London Underground are now consulting on the proposed closure of ex Silverlink ticket offices which are covered by the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement rules. London Travelwatch are asking for comments and feedback on the proposals. The consultation is only open for 3 weeks. www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=571Interestingly there is ZILCH on TfL's own consultation page about these plans.  |
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Post by rsdworker on Jan 7, 2016 3:15:56 GMT
what is Zilch?
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Post by philthetube on Jan 7, 2016 3:40:49 GMT
Foregone conclusion, they will close.
Travelling from Harrow to Yorkshire, current journey Harrow, Milton Keynes, Birmingham.
New journey, Harrow,(Half hour earlier, entering station using oyster or buying single ticket), Leave train at Watford Junction, having paid for journey from Harrow, Buy Ticket from Watford Junction, (fare same as from Harrow). Continue journey as before.
Get your comments in.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 5:52:49 GMT
Zilch is kinda informal and it means 'nothing', although I'd argue it's somewhat emphatic, so perhaps it would be better to gloss this as 'not a thing' or 'absolutely nothing'. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jan 7, 2016 7:14:15 GMT
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Post by rsdworker on Jan 7, 2016 18:19:08 GMT
Foregone conclusion, they will close. Travelling from Harrow to Yorkshire, current journey Harrow, Milton Keynes, Birmingham. New journey, Harrow,(Half hour earlier, entering station using oyster or buying single ticket), Leave train at Watford Junction, having paid for journey from Harrow, Buy Ticket from Watford Junction, (fare same as from Harrow). Continue journey as before. Get your comments in. i agree - ticket offices should handed to National rail operators or London overground who runs train through rather closing by London underground good example of Burton on trent station - station managed by east midlands trains But its does not have any their trains through this station - only cross country operates trains through this |
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
Posts: 480
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Post by londoner on Jan 7, 2016 22:10:16 GMT
TFL did send an email out regarding the consultation:
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 10, 2016 0:45:58 GMT
Foregone conclusion, they will close. Travelling from Harrow to Yorkshire, current journey Harrow, Milton Keynes, Birmingham. New journey, Harrow,(Half hour earlier, entering station using oyster or buying single ticket), Leave train at Watford Junction, having paid for journey from Harrow, Buy Ticket from Watford Junction, (fare same as from Harrow). Continue journey as before. Get your comments in. But that means you had to pay extra, as you had to pay Harrow - Watford separately. That is inequitable / simply not right. I can't imagine the TOCs allowing passengers to treat them in such underhand shoddy almost downright deceitful thieving ways. I suppose that you could buy your ticket online and collect it at Harrow station? Or will there be ticket machines at Harrow which will cater for your journey? Also, if TfL can do this at mainline TOC stations then it implies that the same will happen at all other LO stations as well as Crossrail stations, plus if TfL is given control of other mainline routes in London then at those stations as well. Then other TOC's will see what TfL is doing and try to do likewise... leading down a slippery slope towards making it so much harder for passengers to pay their fares before travelling that they will either not pay or go by car! Simon |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Jan 10, 2016 8:56:48 GMT
Foregone conclusion, they will close. Travelling from Harrow to Yorkshire, current journey Harrow, Milton Keynes, Birmingham. New journey, Harrow,(Half hour earlier, entering station using oyster or buying single ticket), Leave train at Watford Junction, having paid for journey from Harrow, Buy Ticket from Watford Junction, (fare same as from Harrow). Continue journey as before. Get your comments in. But that means you had to pay extra, as you had to pay Harrow - Watford separately. That is inequitable / simply not right. I can't imagine the TOCs allowing passengers to treat them in such underhand shoddy almost downright deceitful thieving ways. I suppose that you could buy your ticket online and collect it at Harrow station? Or will there be ticket machines at Harrow which will cater for your journey? Also, if TfL can do this at mainline TOC stations then it implies that the same will happen at all other LO stations as well as Crossrail stations, plus if TfL is given control of other mainline routes in London then at those stations as well. Then other TOC's will see what TfL is doing and try to do likewise... leading down a slippery slope towards making it so much harder for passengers to pay their fares before travelling that they will either not pay or go by car! Simon Only in Britain do we have manned booking offices at remote rural stations, but somehow it's not economically feasible at a busy location like Euston LUL. Something has gone wrong somewhere. |
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 10, 2016 9:58:11 GMT
The ability to pay by contactless has moved the goalposts.
However, trying to shut the offices at Wembley Central and Harrow and Wealdstone goes too far.
They have longer distance services where machines are unlikely to be able to sell cheaper fares.
The other stations on the new hit list need to be able to issue through tickets to NR destinations.
This happened to me at West Ham years ago when you couldn't by a cheap day return to Southend.
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