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Post by melikepie on Nov 25, 2013 22:05:03 GMT
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Post by littlebrute on Nov 25, 2013 23:52:06 GMT
Sometimes I wonder why they strike in instances like this, it happened when LU got rid of guards (admittedly long before my time) and will happen with this despite what the unions do
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Post by revupminster on Nov 26, 2013 3:09:12 GMT
www.londonreconnections.com/ has a lot of detail. Its seems in outer London, 1 supervisor for six stations and stations manned with a station assistant or whatever the grade will be called. maybe they will run the station with two staff on a 10 hour shift 4days on 3days off. In my day when I worked alone. You would often stop selling tickets to go to the platform and then often onto a train or down the track as circumstances dictated.
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Post by revupminster on Nov 26, 2013 8:23:06 GMT
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Nov 26, 2013 10:02:03 GMT
I note Ruislip is classed as type 'Local B' - ie minimum opperational risk. What about Ruislip siding, or will that be covered by Ickenham in the future? Or is Ickenham 'Local A' because of congestion at peak times?
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Post by revupminster on Nov 26, 2013 10:25:53 GMT
I don't think the station staff will be allowed near the track. Again in my day we had our licences taken away so we could not go on the track in non-traffic hours but could in TRAFFIC hours.
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Post by bassmike on Nov 26, 2013 13:17:10 GMT
Has anyone considered that even now some people, either from choice or for many other reasons do not have computers, credit cards etc: What are they supposed to do if needing to travel at short notice??
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 14:24:06 GMT
Has anyone considered that even now some people, either from choice or for many other reasons do not have computers, credit cards etc: What are they supposed to do if needing to travel at short notice?? You don't need either a computer or credit card to travel on LU. They can go up to a machine in their stations a few minutes prior to departure, tell the machine where they want to go, insert the necessary coins or notes and receive a ticket in return.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 21:39:41 GMT
I hope that the Ticket Offices can stay open in the future. If they were to shut down, there will be complications. How will you redeem Customer Charter Vouchers anymore? How will you get your National Rail Gold Card discount set on your Oyster cards? How can you get a refund in the event of Service Breakdown incidents after Touching-in? These are just three major items that help justify the retention of all Ticket offices. <<edit: This post, which was a new thread, has been merged into this existing thread>>For some of these questions you're going to have to wait for more detail to be announced about how these tasks will be accomplished. Understandably the first information to be announced is the staffing changes at a high level. Later will come the detail of the changes and improvements in technology to deal with customer enquiries better (for example station staff being able to issue refunds via the passenger ticket machines). Nothing is going to change for 12 months so there's plenty of time to get more info.
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Post by trt on Nov 27, 2013 9:43:15 GMT
I've read some of the stuff on London reconnections, and the example they show there, reducing Euston to a single supervisor, seems a bit drastic. Station that size you almost always have an incident going on somewhere that will occupy one of the supervisors. Everyone on the station side looks to have to reapply for a grade in the new structure. I've seen this happen before in other industries, and it's not pretty. Morale goes through the floor, if it could go any lower.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 27, 2013 15:45:30 GMT
Having now seen first hand the Octopus card in action in Hong Kong, the Oyster comes across as a bit of a missed opportunity and maybe it should be retired in favour of something more standard like the ITSO platform. Pretty much every major retailer in HK accepts Octopus for payment, and many vending machines are Octopus only. In HK Octopus is the contactless card everyone uses, and it is more widely accepted than the Visa/MC/Amex contactless. Personally I'd say only about 20% of the money I loaded on to the card was spent on public transport. Aside from the convenience of not messing about with unfamiliar coins/notes, it also meant I didn't take the hit on the various non-sterling fees I'd get charged if I used the debit card each time. I understand there were regulatory issues in the UK that caused the project to be filed under 'too difficult', this is a shame as TfL could be earning millions in the small handling fees charged against these non-transport transactions. As the banks contactless platforms are now well established, and we now have a UK smartcard ticketing standard in ITSO, I can see how the Oyster could be viewed as an obsolete product in the not too distant future. I think your judgement about Oyster relative to Octopus in HK is a bit unfair. Creative Star, who run Octopus, had a battle to get the necessary regulatory standing to allow their card to be accepted for payment outside of the HK transport network. They were lucky and succeeded but there was no real way that LT (as it was) was going to be able to "defeat" the UK Banking Industry. Yes it would have been lovely to have Oyster to do all sorts of things but you need to consider the political context in the UK and London which was subject to huge change at around the time Oyster was due to launch. There is also the question of whether spending public money to battle the banking industry would have been a good use of public money. The political context in HK also does not bear comparison with the one that applies in London. I think you are springing to a judgement about ITSO which is not proven in reality - are there any operative multi-modal schemes that are handling the scale of even 10% of TfL's Oyster transactions? I am not aware of anywhere that works like that yet. Many ITSO card applications on buses are tediously slow which would never work in London given the huge volumes carried. The simple point is, that as things stand, Oyster broadly works for an enormous number of people. It's not perfect but then neither are magnetic stripe tickets if they get a bend in them! I don't see ITSO being able to emulate Octopus given the banks have now moved into contactless payments themselves. You can argue about the cost effectiveness of Oyster or the use of a closed, proprietary system if you want to criticise it. However comparison against ITSO puts Oyster very much in the "winner" category rather than "loser" if you ask me.
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 27, 2013 16:39:17 GMT
The original newsagent scheme banned any shops within 100 yards from a station.
This rule has long gone. The shop at Brixton takes cash for Oyster nowadays.
I'm sure that shops will be the cash sales point for many transactions.
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Post by bicbasher on Nov 27, 2013 16:50:11 GMT
The original newsagent scheme banned any shops within 100 yards from a station. This rule has long gone. The shop at Brixton takes cash for Oyster nowadays. I'm sure that shops will be the cash sales point for many transactions. Indeed, there's also a retailer at Leicester Square which also sells Oyster products.
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Post by revupminster on Nov 27, 2013 17:02:17 GMT
The original newsagent scheme banned any shops within 100 yards from a station. This rule has long gone. The shop at Brixton takes cash for Oyster nowadays. I'm sure that shops will be the cash sales point for many transactions. Hornchurch had a newsagent opposite selling travelcards from the beginning. Upton Park has a newsagent in the station selling tickets.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Nov 27, 2013 18:26:55 GMT
The original newsagent scheme banned any shops within 100 yards from a station. This rule has long gone. The shop at Brixton takes cash for Oyster nowadays. I'm sure that shops will be the cash sales point for many transactions. Hornchurch had a newsagent opposite selling travelcards from the beginning. Upton Park has a newsagent in the station selling tickets. The newsagent opposite Hornchurch station is still selling Oyster. But the problem is that newsagent is not open for the full hours that the station is open. The ticket office at Hornchurch only has very limited opening hours Try finding a staff member on a Sunday evening, the ticket windows are closed the staff are nowhere to be seen. The station has no help points.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 18:56:02 GMT
There is a newsagent actually inside Blackhorse Road Station that sells Oyster!
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Post by revupminster on Nov 28, 2013 7:58:31 GMT
Newsagents inside stations do not want the ticket office open. When the Metro first came out. It was delivered at 5.am and by 5.10 the newsagent had dumped them down the street. It took months of threats before he stopped.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 11:35:03 GMT
Can you post a link re the announcement on phasing out of Oyster Cards please as I can't find one Part of our staff update pack refers mentions the royalty cost LU has to pay for using Oyster. It's cheaper to move to contactless bank cards. But where is the announcement that they will be abandoning Oyster? When will they start phasing it out?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2013 21:51:42 GMT
I think it is more subtle than that. As people take up the contactless payment option, oyster usage will decrease. When it reaches a certain point TFL will say as only so many % of the travelling public use it the cost outweighs the benefit and to save money we will end it. With oyster gone will there be a need for POM's?
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Post by crusty54 on Dec 6, 2013 23:48:52 GMT
The POMs were designed before zonal fares were introduced.
They were called Multifare and Fewfare for marketing purposes.
The Fewfare had buttons for the top ten sales from the station.
The Multifare was a mass of station name buttons and ticket options.
New fronts and touch screens have been added to them now which are much simpler to use but everything was modular in design and Multifares were twice the width of Fewfares.
Some sort of machine will be necessary but a more compact design could emerge that can sell the wider range tickets.
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Post by bicbasher on Dec 7, 2013 1:00:27 GMT
I think it is more subtle than that. As people take up the contactless payment option, oyster usage will decrease. When it reaches a certain point TFL will say as only so many % of the travelling public use it the cost outweighs the benefit and to save money we will end it. With oyster gone will there be a need for POM's? Oyster (or ITSO) technology will still be required for Zip, Oyster 16+ and 60+ and for discount photocards and railcards. Contactless isn't available for those on basic bank accounts or through a credit union.
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Post by revupminster on Dec 7, 2013 7:51:10 GMT
The POMs were designed before zonal fares were introduced. They were called Multifare and Fewfare for marketing purposes. The Fewfare had buttons for the top ten sales from the station. The Multifare was a mass of station name buttons and ticket options. New fronts and touch screens have been added to them now which are much simpler to use but everything was modular in design and Multifares were twice the width of Fewfares. Some sort of machine will be necessary but a more compact design could emerge that can sell the wider range tickets. Zonal fares predate POMS by about 10 years. City and West zone back to 1981 and zone 1 in 1983.
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Post by crusty54 on Dec 7, 2013 8:42:04 GMT
The POMs were designed before zonal fares were introduced. They were called Multifare and Fewfare for marketing purposes. The Fewfare had buttons for the top ten sales from the station. The Multifare was a mass of station name buttons and ticket options. New fronts and touch screens have been added to them now which are much simpler to use but everything was modular in design and Multifares were twice the width of Fewfares. Some sort of machine will be necessary but a more compact design could emerge that can sell the wider range tickets. Zonal fares predate POMS by about 10 years. City and West zone back to 1981 and zone 1 in 1983. I should have said full zonal fares.
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Post by revupminster on Dec 7, 2013 9:36:18 GMT
Actually you might be right. I went to a lecture at Queen Mary College Stepney on the 27 January 1981 given by WestinghouseCubic presenting the concept of the POMs and they were trialled at Vauxhall in November 1982 with new gates that could take the bigger credit style tickets. At the same time a ticket office electronic ticket machine issuing edmonsen size tickets was trialled at Liverpool St D office. It could issue any ticket except seasons and an account ticket at the end of a shift so the clerk could tally his accounts.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2013 9:49:41 GMT
I think it is more subtle than that. As people take up the contactless payment option, oyster usage will decrease. When it reaches a certain point TFL will say as only so many % of the travelling public use it the cost outweighs the benefit and to save money we will end it. With oyster gone will there be a need for POM's? Oyster (or ITSO) technology will still be required for Zip, Oyster 16+ and 60+ and for discount photocards and railcards. Contactless isn't available for those on basic bank accounts or through a credit union. Railcards will end up on Bankcards or online accounts linked to a contactless card. What photocards are you talking about? You don't need and no photocard is used with oyster (PTAC?). Credit unions already offer a chip and pin debit card which will probably go wave and pay in the near future. With regards to basic bank accounts I think they may go to a centrally administrated card which you have to apply for or pay for an ever-increasingly expensive paper ticket You are right that zip and 16+ will continue but they cost £10 and are processed centrally. Freedom and 60+ are processed centrally and payed for by the mayor(TFL) or local councils. For the general public and tourists, I strongly feel oyster will be phased out.
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Post by crusty54 on Dec 7, 2013 11:56:52 GMT
Actually you might be right. I went to a lecture at Queen Mary College Stepney on the 27 January 1981 given by WestinghouseCubic presenting the concept of the POMs and they were trialled at Vauxhall in November 1982 with new gates that could take the bigger credit style tickets. At the same time a ticket office electronic ticket machine issuing edmonsen size tickets was trialled at Liverpool St D office. It could issue any ticket except seasons and an account ticket at the end of a shift so the clerk could tally his accounts. The Vauxhall trial involved a temporary ticket office opposite the normal office with trial ticket office machines and the POMs as well as gates. I worked on the publicity for the trial and was there on day one.
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Post by bicbasher on Dec 7, 2013 23:33:28 GMT
Oyster (or ITSO) technology will still be required for Zip, Oyster 16+ and 60+ and for discount photocards and railcards. Contactless isn't available for those on basic bank accounts or through a credit union. What photocards are you talking about? You don't need and no photocard is used with oyster (PTAC?). Bus and Tram Photocards and Jobcentre+ photocards (formerly the New Deal photocard) are linked to Oyster in the same section where railcards are stored.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 14:34:18 GMT
Apologies for my moment of dementia regarding JCP and Bus & Tram.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 12, 2014 16:05:32 GMT
Oyster (or ITSO) technology will still be required for Zip, Oyster 16+ and 60+ and for discount photocards and railcards. Contactless isn't available for those on basic bank accounts or through a credit union. Railcards will end up on Bankcards or online accounts linked to a contactless card. What photocards are you talking about? You don't need and no photocard is used with oyster (PTAC?). Credit unions already offer a chip and pin debit card which will probably go wave and pay in the near future. With regards to basic bank accounts I think they may go to a centrally administrated card which you have to apply for or pay for an ever-increasingly expensive paper ticket You are right that zip and 16+ will continue but they cost £10 and are processed centrally. Freedom and 60+ are processed centrally and payed for by the mayor(TFL) or local councils. For the general public and tourists, I strongly feel oyster will be phased out. There are a couple of issues here. The public trust Oyster and broadly understand it. Many do not like the idea of TfL having direct uncontrolled access to their bank accounts. TfL therefore have a real "hearts and minds" battle on their hands to convince people about using a contactless bank card instead of Oyster. This presupposes that people have a contactless debit or credit card and, as already said, not everyone does for a variety of reasons. TfL do, as you say, want to convert Oyster so that the cards in people's hands are "dumb" and just trigger transactions at devices that are then reconciled to whatever ticket product is "held" in the new central system. This is a later phase of the Future Ticketing Project yet to be approved / funded. TfL have also given a commitment to the London Assembly that Oyster will not be withdrawn. I expect there will come a point where TfL is forced by the Mayor to renege on this commitment but only once a "convincing" alternative strategy for those on low incomes, in receipt of concessions etc is in place to try to dispel the political fall out.
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Post by trt on Jan 12, 2014 16:50:53 GMT
I've been somewhat concerned by one particular aspect of the "getting the staff out of ticket offices and putting them in the PCAs", and it is this. When you remove the ticket offices, you remove the barriers and queue controls. Just what will happen when you remove that social limiter of the queue? It already gets hairy when someone jumps the line.
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