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Post by bicbasher on Jan 12, 2014 18:02:59 GMT
I've been somewhat concerned by one particular aspect of the "getting the staff out of ticket offices and putting them in the PCAs", and it is this. When you remove the ticket offices, you remove the barriers and queue controls. Just what will happen when you remove that social limiter of the queue? It already gets hairy when someone jumps the line. In that case, I'd like to see a bank style queue for the POM's at the busier stations. |
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Post by trt on Jan 12, 2014 19:03:40 GMT
I've been somewhat concerned by one particular aspect of the "getting the staff out of ticket offices and putting them in the PCAs", and it is this. When you remove the ticket offices, you remove the barriers and queue controls. Just what will happen when you remove that social limiter of the queue? It already gets hairy when someone jumps the line. In that case, I'd like to see a bank style queue for the POM's at the busier stations. I was thinking more of the poor iPad wielding CSAs who are sorting out financial transactions on-line getting swamped with "Excuse me, just quickly... sorry to butt in... what platform for trains to Acton?" whilst some punter who needs an rail card added to an Oyster (or a contact-less bank card) is jumping up and down with cries of "Oi! I was here first! There is a queue you know! OK, well maybe there isn't, but I've been waiting ages now..." |
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 12, 2014 19:17:25 GMT
If people can be persuaded to use their bank cards and pay for period travel on line there will be no need for queues.
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Post by trt on Jan 12, 2014 20:27:38 GMT
If people can be persuaded to use their bank cards and pay for period travel on line there will be no need for queues. Ha ha ha! That's a big IF. |
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Post by melikepie on Jan 12, 2014 21:20:36 GMT
Ticket offices are not just about ticket sales, they are also about getting information, sorting out discounts (my local station will not do that as it is NR) and other affairs.
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Post by trt on Jan 13, 2014 9:39:35 GMT
Which makes me wonder if the statistics regarding "% of journeys involving a visit to the ticket office" includes "visits to the ticket office" or just "recorded visits to the ticket office".
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Post by revupminster on Jan 13, 2014 9:58:00 GMT
Which makes me wonder if the statistics regarding "% of journeys involving a visit to the ticket office" includes "visits to the ticket office" or just "recorded visits to the ticket office". I am sure TFL figures only include ticket sales and not enquiries as they would say enquiries can be dealt with by staff in the booking hall. These staff in the booking hall would need protection from the elements on a freezing winter day in January as most open stations can be like wind tunnels. This I suppose will be the booth where they can keep maps ans other paraphanalia. They still need somewhere to have a locker, make tea and have their meal break if the old ticket office is replaced by a retail outlet. This could be on the platform and when on the break the station would be effectively unmanned. |
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Post by trt on Jan 13, 2014 11:21:05 GMT
Has this scheme been tried out somewhere already? Risk assessed? I know they tried "floating" CSAs at some stations a couple of years back, and they still "triage" the ticket office queue at some stations, but have they done it at a station where the ticket offices have been closed and which is a relatively busy one? It would be most unlike TfL to roll-out an almost irreversible scheme over such a wide area without trying it out first. Or at least, wildly irresponsible. Changing premises is one thing, but all this reapplying for roles business...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 14, 2014 12:20:04 GMT
TfL have also given a commitment to the London Assembly that Oyster will not be withdrawn. Given TfL's (and mayors') commitments to other institutions (Routemasters, ticket offices) that suggests Oyster will be next to go. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 15, 2014 0:07:46 GMT
TfL have also given a commitment to the London Assembly that Oyster will not be withdrawn. Given TfL's (and mayors') commitments to other institutions (Routemasters, ticket offices) that suggests Oyster will be next to go. I take your point. I do rather feel that there would be a lot of negative fall out for TfL if there was to be a move to axe Oyster. The basic issue is that the majority of passengers feel comfortable with Oyster as a concept and feel they are in control of their money. There is a lot of reluctance to "let TfL loose" on a person's bank account. Obviously this is based on people being shown the concept of what bank card use and the "back office" will be like rather than people having any direct experience as to how the new system will work for tube travel or for capping. People's attitudes change when they can try things out but there is still a "hurdle" to get over in terms of public understanding and acceptance. The second issue is a political one and I need hardly say who'd be lined up to oppose any removal of Oyster. It is worth noting though that several Tory Assembly Members really like Oyster and would prefer it was extended rather than have ITSO imposed on areas bordering London. They could cause trouble for Boris if they felt strongly enough about the impact on their constituents. |
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Post by metrailway on Jan 17, 2014 13:39:51 GMT
According to a disabled charity, disabled people were 'locked out' of LU stations 162 times last year purely due to staff shortages. Will these incidences increase with the planned staff cuts? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25773911 |
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Post by rsdworker on Jan 17, 2014 14:23:55 GMT
regarding staff shortages
in other countries and DLR railway - staff shortages don't affect lift access
they should realise its wrong to close lifts if staff shortages - its easier if they leave lift open all times - its also affecting people with heavy luggage and pram and people with child
Network rail stations - in event of station becoming unstaffed - generally lifts are left open unless there a remote control from control room connected with lift so users can press intercom to speak to staff
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 0:55:15 GMT
regarding staff shortages in other countries and DLR railway - staff shortages don't affect lift access they should realise its wrong to close lifts if staff shortages - its easier if they leave lift open all times - its also affecting people with heavy luggage and pram and people with child Network rail stations - in event of station becoming unstaffed - generally lifts are left open unless there a remote control from control room connected with lift so users can press intercom to speak to staff I think all the LUL stations with lifts are Section 12, perhaps the fire regs have a minimum staffing level for operating lifts which is higher than the minimum for opening the station. This wouldn't effect the majority of Network Rail or DLR stations as they aren't sub surface and obviously other countries have different legislation. And now a second Union has joined the strikes which is leading to closure of many ticket offices. This has got to be one of the most chaotic LU strikes I've seen Not much different from when RMT and TSSA held a joint strike over the cuts to ticket offices in winter 2010. |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jan 28, 2014 8:32:13 GMT
regarding staff shortages in other countries and DLR railway - staff shortages don't affect lift access they should realise its wrong to close lifts if staff shortages - its easier if they leave lift open all times - its also affecting people with heavy luggage and pram and people with child Network rail stations - in event of station becoming unstaffed - generally lifts are left open unless there a remote control from control room connected with lift so users can press intercom to speak to staff I think all the LUL stations with lifts are Section 12, perhaps the fire regs have a minimum staffing level for operating lifts which is higher than the minimum for opening the station. This wouldn't effect the majority of Network Rail or DLR stations as they aren't sub surface and obviously other countries have different legislation. And now a second Union has joined the strikes which is leading to closure of many ticket offices. This has got to be one of the most chaotic LU strikes I've seen Not much different from when RMT and TSSA held a joint strike over the cuts to ticket offices in winter 2010. The strikes in 2010 did not stop any ticket offices being closed. The offices that remained had opening hours cut to the bone. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 9:18:21 GMT
The strikes in 2010 did not stop any ticket offices being closed. The offices that remained had opening hours cut to the bone. What makes you think these strikes are going to be different? LUL have been planning this for about 15 years, the whole reason to bring in Oyster was to close ticket offices. In order to increase frequency of trains they'd need more TOps and sure enough in the last ten years TOp numbers have risen from around 2200 to nearly 3500, in order to balance the wage bill they needed to cut staff somewhere but the biggest cut isn't coming from the ticket offices, it's from the Supervisor and Duty Manager grades. 38 GSMs replaced by 97 AM-Ss (up 59) 190 DSMs & 1771 SSs replaced by 336 CSM1s & 635 CSM2s (down 990) 1450 SAMFs/SACRs replaced by 666 CSSs (down 784) 2224 CSAs replaced by 2500 CSA1s (up 276) Plus 486 CSA2s, a new grade, customer service only. |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jan 28, 2014 10:35:45 GMT
Hillingdon has lifts - is that what was Section 12?
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Post by sawb on Jan 28, 2014 10:35:46 GMT
The strikes in 2010 did not stop any ticket offices being closed. The offices that remained had opening hours cut to the bone. What makes you think these strikes are going to be different? LUL have been planning this for about 15 years, the whole reason to bring in Oyster was to close ticket offices. In order to increase frequency of trains they'd need more TOps and sure enough in the last ten years TOp numbers have risen from around 2200 to nearly 3500, in order to balance the wage bill they needed to cut staff somewhere but the biggest cut isn't coming from the ticket offices, it's from the Supervisor and Duty Manager grades. 38 GSMs replaced by 97 AM-Ss (up 59) 190 DSMs & 1771 SSs replaced by 336 CSM1s & 635 CSM2s (down 990) 1450 SAMFs/SACRs replaced by 666 CSSs (down 784) 2224 CSAs replaced by 2500 CSA1s (up 276) Plus 486 CSA2s, a new grade, customer service only. What do these acronyms mean in full please? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 11:55:37 GMT
What do these acronyms mean in full please?[/quote] Old GSM Group Station Manager DSM Duty Station Manager SS Station Supervisor SAMF Station Assistant Multi Functional = ticket office staff SACR Station Assistant Control Room CSA Customer Service Assistant. New AM-S Area Manager – Stations CSM Customer Service Manager CSS Customer Service Supervisor, either “ticket hall” or “control room” Hillingdon has lifts - is that what was Section 12? I doubt it, have the lifts there been closed for staff shortages? "Section 12" is what we call any station that are subject to the Fire Precautions (Sub-surface Railway Station) Regulations 2009 which replaced the 1989 Regs. Not sure how they apply to lifts, I've not worked stations for over ten years so I'm a bit rusty on the legislation. |
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Post by trt on Feb 19, 2014 13:36:10 GMT
Just got off the phone to the Oyster "helpline". And what a frustrating experience that was! What would have taken 10 minutes at a ticket office took over 45 minutes on the phone and still isn't resolved.
Basically, my idiot child had met friends on Saturday on the PAID side of the barriers out in west London. They then travelled as a group back to the centre of London, using a bizarrely tortuous route possibly related to Skyfall or some computer game which involves tube stations, and he exceeded the Oyster time limits, leading to a number of incomplete journeys which don't count towards the daily price caps. The woman on the phone couldn't check his journeys, had to refer it to a colleague who said the prices were correct (which they were but that's not what I was complaining about), told me that the maximum cap for his card was £9.40 when it's actually £8.20 if you go via Watford Junction, or £1.50 everywhere else on the network. She tried telling me it was due to him travelling in the peak... on a Saturday. Utter, utter rubbish. I was reading out URLs to her to show where it said on their website about incomplete journeys not counting towards daily caps.
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paulsw2
My Train Runs For Those Who Wait Not Wait For Those That Run
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Post by paulsw2 on Feb 19, 2014 18:48:35 GMT
Just got off the phone to the Oyster "helpline". And what a frustrating experience that was! What would have taken 10 minutes at a ticket office took over 45 minutes on the phone and still isn't resolved. Basically, my idiot child had met friends on Saturday on the PAID side of the barriers out in west London. They then travelled as a group back to the centre of London, using a bizarrely tortuous route possibly related to Skyfall or some computer game which involves tube stations, and he exceeded the Oyster time limits, leading to a number of incomplete journeys which don't count towards the daily price caps. The woman on the phone couldn't check his journeys, had to refer it to a colleague who said the prices were correct (which they were but that's not what I was complaining about), told me that the maximum cap for his card was £9.40 when it's actually £8.20 if you go via Watford Junction, or £1.50 everywhere else on the network. She tried telling me it was due to him travelling in the peak... on a Saturday. Utter, utter rubbish. I was reading out URLs to her to show where it said on their website about incomplete journeys not counting towards daily caps. when contactless is rolled out the ultimate get out for LUL is nothing to do with us contact your bank (3rd world class service) |
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Feb 20, 2014 8:15:28 GMT
I have just read the article regarding Booking Office closures and the accompanying comments regarding how much LUL staff get paid. Some poster have pointed out that the wage rate recognises what staff are responsible for. I would also like to point out that would those who complain be happy in starting work at 0500 one week then fishing at 0100 the next. Those who complain probably work 0900-1700 Mon-Fri.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 8:43:08 GMT
It will happen.Once people see that TFL will not have access to everything they do on their bank account and that this new system is fairer. As mentioned by snoggle dumb oyster cards which require an online account to get the most out of them will be the next re-invention of the oyster card.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 15:53:21 GMT
Surely, management have taken into account the need for extra drivers and the reduced maintenance windows. They're not idiots are they?? The Underground needs to become customer focused rather than engineering led, so 24 hour working might be one of doing it, but closing ticket offices, I will reserve judgement on. I don't see it working well. New Year's Eve is already hurrendous with the number of passenger 'incidents', and Thursday-Saturday nights at certain stations can also be similar. We will just see more of the same on a wider scale. Meanwhile, the rest of the service *will* suffer. Trains receive a lot of preventative maintenance over night, and any issues left over from traffic hours are also dealt with overnight. You can not always plan when repairs will be needed (broken rails, failure investigations etc), so something that occurs at 0700 on a Friday can't now be dealt with until the Sunday night, causing a risk to the daytime service on the Saturday and Sunday. I'm sure the numbers of people using the system during the daytime over the weekend far outweighs the number who will use it over night (despite the latter group causing a disproportionate amount of trouble), surely their interests are more important. Or maybe weekend passengers don't matter to LUL as evidenced by the large amounts of the system that are shut weekend after weekend?! I'd also be interested to know how the economics of 24-hour services add up, although some of the staff will be present anyway (e.g. Supervisors and Duty Managers on duty, albeit to skeleton numbers), many won't be. There will be a requirement for additional CSAs and Train Operators, neither of which come particularly cheap. Currently most lines only have a handful of Train Operators on duty overnight, only enough to run a very token service even if they were driving continuously right through the night. Will the increased revenue cover this additional cost? I agree - I think night buses will be cut to help increase night tube demand as well. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 15:56:58 GMT
Just got off the phone to the Oyster "helpline". And what a frustrating experience that was! What would have taken 10 minutes at a ticket office took over 45 minutes on the phone and still isn't resolved. Basically, my idiot child had met friends on Saturday on the PAID side of the barriers out in west London. They then travelled as a group back to the centre of London, using a bizarrely tortuous route possibly related to Skyfall or some computer game which involves tube stations, and he exceeded the Oyster time limits, leading to a number of incomplete journeys which don't count towards the daily price caps. The woman on the phone couldn't check his journeys, had to refer it to a colleague who said the prices were correct (which they were but that's not what I was complaining about), told me that the maximum cap for his card was £9.40 when it's actually £8.20 if you go via Watford Junction, or £1.50 everywhere else on the network. She tried telling me it was due to him travelling in the peak... on a Saturday. Utter, utter rubbish. I was reading out URLs to her to show where it said on their website about incomplete journeys not counting towards daily caps. Your 'idiot child' reminds me of myself a few years ago lol! As I used to travel a lot around the Underground just for the sake of it lol! Nevertheless I think you should make a complaint via email about this or phone up ,hoping someone more competent picks up! |
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Post by domh245 on May 6, 2014 18:00:20 GMT
So will that only affect the "big" stations, eg Euston, KXSP etc? Is this to do with the restructuring, as from what I understand, it is these centers which will stay open after the ticket office closures, presumably with their wages decreasing as well
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 21:18:26 GMT
So will that only affect the "big" stations, eg Euston, KXSP etc? Is this to do with the restructuring, as from what I understand, it is these centers which will stay open after the ticket office closures, presumably with their wages decreasing as well It isn't anything to do with the plans for stations. It relates to a proposed change in the way pay rises and performance management are done for (mostly) office based staff. The pensions angle is that if pay rises are lower then the eventual final salary and thus the pension will be lower. |
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Post by bicbasher on May 6, 2014 23:07:16 GMT
I popped into Stratford during the evening peak this evening (Tuesday), when I arrived at the Westfield ticket hall, the ticket office was closed, with customers using the machines.
As I had a LU customer charter revenue voucher to exchange, I went across the footbridge from Westfield to the main ticket hall. Passing the Greater Anglia ticket office, the queue was long. The sign which says buy your Oyster and travelcards here attracted customers, some I assume who have just got off the coach from Stansted Airport. I went into the LU ticket hall and despite having two staff in the ticket office, I was able to walk straight up. A simple case of GA attracting the custom or a lack of promotion for the soon to close LU ticket office?
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Post by littlebrute on Jun 19, 2014 0:21:31 GMT
I imagine one of the biggest things about switching to contactless payment cards is the daily cap and travelcards
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 19, 2014 4:38:17 GMT
I imagine one of the biggest things about switching to contactless payment cards is the daily cap and travelcards Just wait until contactless payment is the norm, you may then find that the biggest issues will resolve to unexpected debits. Personally I don't trust the technology at all and I certainly wouldn't advocate its use to pay for travel of any kind. I can already imagine the fraudsters rubbing their hands with glee as they work out in advance how to part travellers from their card balances! I don't use contactless card technology myself, I still like to use cash and that won't change anytime soon. |
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Post by trt on Jun 19, 2014 9:37:30 GMT
I imagine one of the biggest things about switching to contactless payment cards is the daily cap and travelcards Just wait until contactless payment is the norm, you may then find that the biggest issues will resolve to unexpected debits. Personally I don't trust the technology at all and I certainly wouldn't advocate its use to pay for travel of any kind. I can already imagine the fraudsters rubbing their hands with glee as they work out in advance how to part travellers from their card balances! I don't use contactless card technology myself, I still like to use cash and that won't change anytime soon. As the system which receives the payment must be registered with a bank, any erroneous of fraudulent transaction will be traceable, so one couldn't just run a wand over a line of handbags and snaffle £20 out of each. But one could have an accomplice further down a queue with a wand near someone's bag or wallet using a longer range wireless technology relaying signals from the crook seeming to legitimately swipe a card in payment of something whilst the actual transaction is on a card further down the queue. Not sure how practical it would be to carry out such a fraud, but technically it's possible - there's no defence in the system to detect and prevent radio frequency proxy. |
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