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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 21:50:16 GMT
It's a public service, not a library, so we had the right to be loud if we liked it or not. Like you say, no one challenged me throughout the whole day, the only person being a student earlier in the day actually trying to tackle a friend earlier in the day in an act of pointless anger, because someone in the group nudged them by accident when walking past on the train. There were a few regular commuters who became quite animated when they thought they were being barged about on the train, as they clearly were not expected a very busy train, and got shirty when people explained to them to calm down. As for yelling to surrounding people, it's like being in a night club. You have the running noise of the train, and the noise of people talking already, so naturally you talk louder to be heard. Is there also an unwritten rule that someone in tfl uniform cannot hang around with their friends, just because they are loud? I wasnt gonna mention that but I will now. In car 6034, on the approach to Barbican,many people were crowding around the drop down window to look at the film crew, there was one passenger who was bassicly being sat on by one of the enthusiasts without the enthusiast realising. When this guy wanted to get up and leave the train on the approach to Barbican I happaned to be walking over there (quiet, considerate and polite funnilly enough, considering I am a young person!) When he got up he simply said 'move' and started pushing me with force into the vestibule. Out of pure anger and heat of the moment etc, I decided to push him against the doors, he grabbed me and pushed me back. Then we argued for a bit till he got off. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 27, 2012 21:50:50 GMT
Is there also an unwritten rule that someone in tfl uniform cannot hang around with their friends, just because they are loud? Yes, it's called "Corporate Image" and/or "Bringing the Profession into Disrepute". For exactly this reason if I were to be convicted of being Drunk & Disorderly I would loose my job, whether or not I was wearing my name badge. I hope that BTP don't make an appearance on Saturday in order to ensure that there is no "Breech of the peace". Seriously guys, I'm all for having fun (last weekend I was told off for displaying a rather pleasant cast "LV" board rather than a tail lamp) but there comes a point where you need to think about those around you. |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 27, 2012 21:52:40 GMT
It's a public service, not a library, so we had the right to be loud if we liked it or not. Like you say, no one challenged me throughout the whole day, the only person being a student earlier in the day actually trying to tackle a friend earlier in the day in an act of pointless anger, because someone in the group nudged them by accident when walking past on the train. There were a few regular commuters who became quite animated when they thought they were being barged about on the train, as they clearly were not expected a very busy train, and got shirty when people explained to them to calm down. As for yelling to surrounding people, it's like being in a night club. You have the running noise of the train, and the noise of people talking already, so naturally you talk louder to be heard. Is there also an unwritten rule that someone in tfl uniform cannot hang around with their friends, just because they are loud? That said person was also aware that certain people were taking things too far, but certain people are generally embarrassing most of the time, in terms of getting over-excited. Actually a library IS a public service, but hey ho. All this stuff about having rights etc. You don't just have the right to be loud because you feel like it. At the end of the day, whether you like it or not, train 412 was a normal passenger service (which happened to be operated by the last A stock in public service). So people have a right to a normal journey. You will always get grumpy people who are never happy with anything - you'll learn that one day, and to ignore them. There's nothing wrong with a good atmosphere, and it was usually good natured. But all this stuff about rights, and making ridiculous comparisons between trains and night clubs, well . . .  |
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Post by antharro on Sept 27, 2012 21:54:27 GMT
It's a public service, not a library, so we had the right to be loud if we liked it or not. Technically, yes, you are correct. However, you completely miss the point about being courteous to other passengers on the train. Not everyone wants to celebrate in the same way you do. As for yelling to surrounding people, it's like being in a night club. You have the running noise of the train, and the noise of people talking already, so naturally you talk louder to be heard. You are not in a night club. You are not at a football match. I was able to hold a conversation with a couple of other passengers at quite a normal volume in between the yelling. Look, no one's telling you you can't get excited, no one's saying you shouldn't be enthusiastic. Just please have a thought and some consideration for the other passengers around you. That's all. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 21:55:42 GMT
Yes, it's called "Corporate Image" and/or "Bringing the Profession into Disrepute". For exactly this reason if I were to be convicted of being Drunk & Disorderly I would loose my job, whether or not I was wearing my name badge. I hope that BTP don't make an appearance on Saturday in order to ensure that there is no "Breech of the peace". So working for tfl means you cannot stand with your friends if they are particularly loud people? |
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Fahad
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Post by Fahad on Sept 27, 2012 21:58:49 GMT
Essentially, yes, although substitute "wearing a branded uniform" for "working for tfl"
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Post by superteacher on Sept 27, 2012 21:58:54 GMT
Yes, it's called "Corporate Image" and/or "Bringing the Profession into Disrepute". For exactly this reason if I were to be convicted of being Drunk & Disorderly I would loose my job, whether or not I was wearing my name badge. I hope that BTP don't make an appearance on Saturday in order to ensure that there is no "Breech of the peace". So working for tfl means you cannot stand with your friends if they are particularly loud people? By associating with such behaviour, he is bringing the company into disrepute, especially since he is wearing a uniform, |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 22:01:34 GMT
So working for tfl means you cannot stand with your friends if they are particularly loud people? By associating with such behaviour, he is bringing the company into disrepute, especially since he is wearing a uniform, He was not behaving badly, thats the point. He just happens to be friends with people who are. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 22:02:04 GMT
It's a public service, not a library, so we had the right to be loud if we liked it or not. Technically, yes, you are correct. However, you completely miss the point about being courteous to other passengers on the train. Not everyone wants to celebrate in the same way you do. As for yelling to surrounding people, it's like being in a night club. You have the running noise of the train, and the noise of people talking already, so naturally you talk louder to be heard. You are not in a night club. You are not at a football match. I was able to hold a conversation with a couple of other passengers at quite a normal volume in between the yelling. Look, no one's telling you you can't get excited, no one's saying you shouldn't be enthusiastic. Just please have a thought and some consideration for the other passengers around you. That's all. I was comparing it to a night club with respects to the fact that it had high levels of noise and sheer numbers of people creating this (ever been in one?). I just don't see why there should be this unwritten rule where people should have to be reserved, just to satisfy some people I don't even know. Maybe you could flip the perspective to 'if you don't want to enjoy yourselves, find another carriage!', the train is formed of 8 of them! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 22:04:21 GMT
By associating with such behaviour, he is bringing the company into disrepute, especially since he is wearing a uniform, He was not behaving badly, thats the point. He just happens to be friends with people who are. +1  |
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Fahad
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Post by Fahad on Sept 27, 2012 22:05:34 GMT
By associating with such behaviour, he is bringing the company into disrepute, especially since he is wearing a uniform, He was not behaving badly, thats the point. He just happens to be friends with people who are. How many people will identify which members of a large crowd are the rowdy ones, and which are just standing there? Most people will just call it a rowdy crowd Technically, yes, you are correct. However, you completely miss the point about being courteous to other passengers on the train. Not everyone wants to celebrate in the same way you do. You are not in a night club. You are not at a football match. I was able to hold a conversation with a couple of other passengers at quite a normal volume in between the yelling. Look, no one's telling you you can't get excited, no one's saying you shouldn't be enthusiastic. Just please have a thought and some consideration for the other passengers around you. That's all. I was comparing it to a night club with respects to the fact that it had high levels of noise and sheer numbers of people creating this (ever been in one?). I just don't see why there should be this unwritten rule where people should have to be reserved, just to satisfy some people I don't even know. Maybe you could flip the perspective to 'if you don't want to enjoy yourselves, find another carriage!', the train is formed of 8 of them! The passengers? On a rush hour train in public service on a commuter route? |
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Post by antharro on Sept 27, 2012 22:08:21 GMT
I was comparing it to a night club with respects to the fact that it had high levels of noise and sheer numbers of people creating this (ever been in one?). Put your sarcasm away, it's not necessary. None of this has been a personal attack on you. I just don't see why there should be this unwritten rule where people should have to be reserved, just to satisfy some people I don't even know. Maybe you could flip the perspective to 'if you don't want to enjoy yourselves, find another carriage!', the train is formed of 8 of them! Actually, some employment contracts are quite specific about what you can and cannot do when in uniform. I remember a former train op telling me he wasn't allowed in a pub if he was in uniform. Just because you don't know the other people on the train doesn't mean you shouldn't be considerate towards them. No one is saying you have to be "reserved", just don't take it to the other extreme. And as you were talking about rights earlier, they have just as much right to be there as you do, and their behaviour shouldn't impact on you or your group any more than yours should on theirs. |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 27, 2012 22:09:03 GMT
By associating with such behaviour, he is bringing the company into disrepute, especially since he is wearing a uniform, He was not behaving badly, thats the point. He just happens to be friends with people who are. Fair enough. But unfortunately, it's guilt by association. Whether you think that's fair or not, it's a fact of life. The pure fact that he was associating himself with that behaviour would be enough to bring his actions into disrepute. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 22:09:27 GMT
[quote How many people will identify which members of a large crowd are the rowdy ones, and which are just standing there? Most people will just call it a rowdy crowd
[/quote]
Yeah I know, i'm just making it clear that he and also myself were not being rowdy.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 27, 2012 22:14:21 GMT
Technically, yes, you are correct. However, you completely miss the point about being courteous to other passengers on the train. Not everyone wants to celebrate in the same way you do. You are not in a night club. You are not at a football match. I was able to hold a conversation with a couple of other passengers at quite a normal volume in between the yelling. Look, no one's telling you you can't get excited, no one's saying you shouldn't be enthusiastic. Just please have a thought and some consideration for the other passengers around you. That's all. I was comparing it to a night club with respects to the fact that it had high levels of noise and sheer numbers of people creating this (ever been in one?). I just don't see why there should be this unwritten rule where people should have to be reserved, just to satisfy some people I don't even know. Maybe you could flip the perspective to 'if you don't want to enjoy yourselves, find another carriage!', the train is formed of 8 of them! Sadly, you're digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself. Are you seriously saying that because YOU want to be loud, other people should have to move? This just smacks of arrogance and the "I can do what I want" attitude which to be quite honest, proves that you've got some serious growing up to do. I've been to numerous night clubs in my time, and yes, I expect them to loud, raucous places with people behaving in an over the top way. I've been there and done it - you lot didn't invent fun! |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 27, 2012 22:16:20 GMT
Wasn't a late-night C stock turned into a nightclub once? Cellophane on the car lights, ghetto-blaster in the corner?
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Post by superteacher on Sept 27, 2012 22:19:05 GMT
Wasn't a late-night C stock turned into a nightclub once? Cellophane on the car lights, ghetto-blaster in the corner? Rings a bell! And there was, of course, the "last Circle line" train, the behaviour on which makes yesterday look tame. People standing on the carriage roof at Baker Street - I'll never forget that sight. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 22:19:56 GMT
I was comparing it to a night club with respects to the fact that it had high levels of noise and sheer numbers of people creating this (ever been in one?). I just don't see why there should be this unwritten rule where people should have to be reserved, just to satisfy some people I don't even know. Maybe you could flip the perspective to 'if you don't want to enjoy yourselves, find another carriage!', the train is formed of 8 of them! Sadly, you're digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself. Are you seriously saying that because YOU want to be loud, other people should have to move? This just smacks of arrogance and the "I can do what I want" attitude which to be quite honest, proves that you've got some serious growing up to do. I've been to numerous night clubs in my time, and yes, I expect them to loud, raucous places with people behaving in an over the top way. I've been there and done it - you lot didn't invent fun! I didn't mean it in the sense that they have to move, they could put up with it, move, or say something about it in person, not just stand there then start moaning on the internet afterwards. You don't get the comment, let me spell it out. Train with lots of people talking loud Train running noise These two things will make others speak louder to hear Nightclub with lots of people talking loud Nightclub music etc These things will make others speak louder to hear I'm not saying that is the main reason why people were being loud, but it was certainly a reason. |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 27, 2012 22:24:27 GMT
Sadly, you're digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself. Are you seriously saying that because YOU want to be loud, other people should have to move? This just smacks of arrogance and the "I can do what I want" attitude which to be quite honest, proves that you've got some serious growing up to do. I've been to numerous night clubs in my time, and yes, I expect them to loud, raucous places with people behaving in an over the top way. I've been there and done it - you lot didn't invent fun! I didn't mean it in the sense that they have to move, they could put up with it, move, or say something about it in person, not just stand there then start moaning on the internet afterwards. You don't get the comment, let me spell it out. Train with lots of people talking loud Train running noise These two things will make others speak louder to hear Nightclub with lots of people talking loud Nightclub music etc These things will make others speak louder to hear I'm not saying that is the main reason why people were being loud, but it was certainly a reason. I kind of get what you are saying, but there's a difference between a loud buzz (like in a Wetherspoons pub) and people screaming at the top of their voices. And you mention about choices, one of which was that people "can just choose to put up with it." Really and truly, they shouldn't be put in that situation to have to make a choice. And it wasn't just the fact that people were shouting, but WHAT they were shouting. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 22:27:37 GMT
I don't decide if people decide to shout inappropriate things
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Post by superteacher on Sept 27, 2012 22:33:59 GMT
I don't decide if people decide to shout inappropriate things I am not saying you do, but it happened, and it gives all of us enthusiasts a bad name. We get a bad enough press as it is (being called geeks, weirdos and so on), and various things yesterday contributed further to that image. As someone else said, nobody expects people to sit their like in a library. On the other hand, we were essentially gatecrashing a normal passenger service, so we have to mindful of that too. |
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Post by andypurk on Sept 27, 2012 22:50:07 GMT
I don't wish to reply to any individual post, but I think it is worth quoting section 6 of the TfL bylaws. As can be downloaded at www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/TfL_Railway_Byelaws.pdf. Some of the behaviour I saw yesterday (both in the morning and on the last trip to/from Watford) was certainly breaking some of these bylaws. |
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Post by dennisc on Sept 27, 2012 23:25:38 GMT
For the tour, does anybody know which Letter,(for example B or H) associates with which car on the train? H-G-F-E-D-C-B-A At Moorgate H is the leading car westbound. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 23:53:26 GMT
I am totally disgusted that such an incident can happen on a operational railway, I can sort of understand incidents happening outside traffic hours but at 19.00 in the evening.  I would hope London underground and the BTP are searching CCTV as this not acceptable and could have only happened at a station (except moor park which would have mean't someone was trespassing) Dear oh dear! You don't seem to understand the lengths graffiti vandal scum will go to to perpetuate their criminal activity! Perhaps you have mis-understood, it is not being suggested anyone involved in the A stock celebration was involved! Graffiti criminals have no issue whatsoever with trespassing and Moor Park was the most likely station the vandalism occured, but I don't propose to detail how these crimes are generally carried out! |
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Post by dennisc on Sept 28, 2012 0:20:37 GMT
I am totally disgusted that such an incident can happen on a operational railway, I can sort of understand incidents happening outside traffic hours but at 19.00 in the evening. I would hope London underground and the BTP are searching CCTV as this not acceptable and could have only happened at a station (except moor park which would have mean't someone was trespassing) Dear oh dear! You don't seem to understand the lengths graffiti vandal scum will go to to perpetuate their criminal activity! Perhaps you have mis-understood, it is not being suggested anyone involved in the A stock celebration was involved! Graffiti criminals have no issue whatsoever with trespassing and Moor Park was the most likely station the vandalism occured, but I don't propose to detail how these crimes are generally carried out! You're right the BTP officers that were on the same train as me from Rickmansworth the next day got off at Moor Park and appeared to be to questioning the waiting passengers. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 0:28:58 GMT
I was present at some point for some or all of every trip, in full LU uniform, except the first n/b from the depot. I did not witness anything that I considered required specific intervention. Perhaps my greatest concern was regular commuters (NOT ENTHUSIASTS) using the interconnecting doors freely as if they were on an S stock train.
It is true that their was some fairly boistrous enthusiasm from some of the younger enthusiasts in one of the cars. It is fair to say that this will not have been everyone's cup of tea, though I wasn't in that car on the final trip. I gather many videos were spoilt by the swearing of an older gent at Harrow! These are issues of respect for others, there is a balance to be found, but they should not be blown out of proportion! Any incursions beyond the barriers were frankly minor and insignificant and on the platforms and I never saw anyone unqualified going down ramps or anywhere near track. I never saw anyone doing anything dangerous overall and allowing for the vast numbers present and the desire for everyone to get at least a reasonable attempt at some photographs of a moment in history everyone seemed to be both reasonable and safe. A few people stood on platform seats or salt bins... so what! These things are mis-used daily by the locals and no-one says anything to them!
I can certainly tell you all that when you are on a train that passes through a station when the football kicks out you will know all about it. The last A stock has nothing on that hell. Chanting, singing, swinging on the hand rails and jumping up and down on the car floor and seats are normal and that's just the supporters of the winning team! Late night services can have an equal mix of singing and rowdy behaviour. Football and late night services do also get damaged from time to time! So keep it in perspective!
I fear, as usual, the excessive complaints being raised here do these events no favours and blow the whole thing out of all proportion, so that the "powers that be" when reading them will feel justified in preventing such events occurring in the future, when such steps would be wholly unjustified!
Extra security measures will be taken ... railway enthusiasts are a soft target. Football matches disrupt the railway, railway specials don't. Extra security would be better deployed on a match day or in the evening, not a running day!!! Deal with people drinking alcohol on my trains every single day... with their feet on seat cushions, holding doors open, abusing station staff and countless other incursions ... then after dealing with that, look at minor inconsequential transgressions by rail enthusiasts.
Also the "disruption to the running railway" was caused by some LU officials plan changes and co-operation refusals ... lets not go there!
Again nothing to the disruption a football match causes!
Lets keep it real! It was a great day. A few things were minor irritants for a few people, but everyone was safe and well behaved and a common sense approach was taken to getting pictures. The A stock had a great send off and LU should see the day as a great success with good publicity and should be delighted to run many more special train workings!
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Sept 28, 2012 0:39:30 GMT
"if you don't want to enjoy yourselves, find another carriage!', the train is formed of 8 of them..." ...unfortunately, TfL expects passengers to feel safe as well. I am confident that TfL is not implying that you can't have fun or discuss about the A60 Stock, placing flowers under luggage racks, or carefully take an odd photo of a moth that found its way into the new train, but when to comes to swearing, using flash, stepping onto track gravel without safety clearance, climbing on equipment, and even sitting on luggage racks, then that is silly... I shudder to think what would happen if the luggage racks fell onto regular commuters under the weight of people who sat on them because the luggage racks are NOT designed to take people - this isn't India's railways (no offence intended, I'm only trying to point out the crowding that is actually true on the latter). I will be at Moorgate at around 9:15 and I might need to discuss with the railway staff about preventing stuff like this again. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 6:03:23 GMT
and while the yelling of "Pacers", "disgusting" and other derogatory terms every time an S-stock came past was amusing to start with, again, it got tedious very quickly. I think this behaviour does illustrate the naivety and shallowness of some enthusiasts. Many commuters of the early 1960s were horrified when A stock appeared to replace their beloved T stock and loco hauled coaches with their cosy compartments. The cycle is being repeated. Personally, although I've enjoyed riding and photographing A stock for 30+ years, their time has come and I think the S stock is a worthy successor. Regrettably i won't be in London tomorrow so will miss the festivities, I hope it all passes off without incident and the old girls get the send off they deserve.  |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Sept 28, 2012 6:48:48 GMT
The behaviour of some individuals on the last pax run, and their postings about it, is a pointer to why some "more experienced" contributors no longer post on here.
If the Farewell Tour generates a repeat performance, I fear for the prospects of any future tours.
It only takes the actions of a very few to bu66er it up for the majority
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 6:53:29 GMT
I was present at some point for some or all of every trip, in full LU uniform, except the first n/b from the depot. I did not witness anything that I considered required specific intervention. Perhaps my greatest concern was regular commuters (NOT ENTHUSIASTS) using the interconnecting doors freely as if they were on an S stock train. It is true that their was some fairly boistrous enthusiasm from some of the younger enthusiasts in one of the cars. It is fair to say that this will not have been everyone's cup of tea, though I wasn't in that car on the final trip. I gather many videos were spoilt by the swearing of an older gent at Harrow! These are issues of respect for others, there is a balance to be found, but they should not be blown out of proportion! Any incursions beyond the barriers were frankly minor and insignificant and on the platforms and I never saw anyone unqualified going down ramps or anywhere near track. I never saw anyone doing anything dangerous overall and allowing for the vast numbers present and the desire for everyone to get at least a reasonable attempt at some photographs of a moment in history everyone seemed to be both reasonable and safe. A few people stood on platform seats or salt bins... so what! These things are mis-used daily by the locals and no-one says anything to them! I can certainly tell you all that when you are on a train that passes through a station when the football kicks out you will know all about it. The last A stock has nothing on that hell. Chanting, singing, swinging on the hand rails and jumping up and down on the car floor and seats are normal and that's just the supporters of the winning team! Late night services can have an equal mix of singing and rowdy behaviour. Football and late night services do also get damaged from time to time! So keep it in perspective! I fear, as usual, the excessive complaints being raised here do these events no favours and blow the whole thing out of all proportion, so that the "powers that be" when reading them will feel justified in preventing such events occurring in the future, when such steps would be wholly unjustified! Extra security measures will be taken ... railway enthusiasts are a soft target. Football matches disrupt the railway, railway specials don't. Extra security would be better deployed on a match day or in the evening, not a running day!!! Deal with people drinking alcohol on my trains every single day... with their feet on seat cushions, holding doors open, abusing station staff and countless other incursions ... then after dealing with that, look at minor inconsequential transgressions by rail enthusiasts. Also the "disruption to the running railway" was caused by some LU officials plan changes and co-operation refusals ... lets not go there! Again nothing to the disruption a football match causes! Lets keep it real! It was a great day. A few things were minor irritants for a few people, but everyone was safe and well behaved and a common sense approach was taken to getting pictures. The A stock had a great send off and LU should see the day as a great success with good publicity and should be delighted to run many more special train workings! +1 |
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