Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 0:07:22 GMT
The first S7 unit should be down in London by or hopefully before 31 March. But watch this space!
|
|
vato
Zone 6D - Special Fares Apply
Posts: 131
|
Post by vato on Feb 6, 2011 4:10:24 GMT
As was said, as the disruption went on for hours it meant drivers hadn't had breaks and were out of hours meaning hardly any trains north (and none to Chesham!) the key to this has to be recovering quickly so there has to be a way to move a failed train out of the way that doesn't take hours. I got caught up in this too very late in the day. A taxi was arranged from Amersham to Chesham for me. I guess once the service is up the wall to that extent, it's extremely hard to recover from, what with staff hours getting towards or beyond limits, train and staff mostly in the wrong places, etc. Station staff were very helpful throughout. One thing I have noticed on previous occasions of large scale disruption, and it looks like it's true again, is that my journey hasn't appeared on my Oyster Journey History. Any insight as to how/why this happens on really bad days? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 15:14:42 GMT
First S7 already? Is this a test unit like what happened with S8? Are there any plans for where it'll be tested or what the plan is for introducing S7's into service?
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Feb 6, 2011 15:29:00 GMT
It is the S8 test train, well one of them! It has been reformed into 7 cars for testing on the rest of the network.
The 41st S stock train is likely to be an S7 with a break in the S8 delivery for a while.* This is so some S7s can be running for the 2012 Olympics. This should leave about 20? A stock till the end of 2012, hopefully!
*Reminds me of the 1959/62 stock introduction...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 16:14:10 GMT
vato: Maybe the journey doesnt appear in journey history because then the journey doesnt get charged?
|
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Feb 6, 2011 16:22:54 GMT
Does the S Stock have Spring-Applied Parking Brakes on all cars? If so, then without main line air, if you're using an assisting train you're pushing not only the weight of the defective train but also against brakes hard on. These can be isolated but then this brings up issues associated with the Highgate 'runaway' a while back. Is there not a connection between the A and S stock air systems, such that the A stock could be used to provide air to release the brakes? Or are we talking about a unit so b*ggered that it has to be dragged completely dead? Surely compound incidents like this just demonstrate the usefulness of having crossovers on the four track section. I guess the beancounter who works out whether it's cost-effective to have crossovers is a different beancounter from the one who has to deal with the costs of a delay. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 16:28:22 GMT
It is the S8 test train, well one of them! It has been reformed into 7 cars for testing on the rest of the network. Will it be 21001+21002 then, since 21099+21100 is still in London? |
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Feb 6, 2011 16:52:35 GMT
I would assume so. I think it is only a temp reformation and will not be used in pax serivce. We'll need a member of the project team to confirm this however.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 6, 2011 17:51:16 GMT
Is there not a connection between the A and S stock air systems, such that the A stock could be used to provide air to release the brakes? Or are we talking about a unit so b*ggered that it has to be dragged completely dead? There would be no air connection from S Stock to A, C or D Stocks. Will it be 21001+21002 then, since 21099+21100 is still in London? I understand it is 21001-21002, with an M2 car removed- to be used for non-passenger testing. First S7 already? Is this a test unit like what happened with S8? Are there any plans for where it'll be tested or what the plan is for introducing S7's into service? Looking at the current Operational Segments would suggest: Edgware Road-Olympia/Lillie Bridge/Wimbledon 1st Edgware Road-Hammersmith 2nd Aldgate East-Barking sidings Gloucester Road-Tower Hill Barking sidings-Upminster Lillie Bridge-Ealing Turnham Green-Richmond as the stages the infrastructure will be modified for S7s. |
|
|
|
Post by 21146 on Feb 6, 2011 18:16:57 GMT
Does the S Stock have Spring-Applied Parking Brakes on all cars? If so, then without main line air, if you're using an assisting train you're pushing not only the weight of the defective train but also against brakes hard on. These can be isolated but then this brings up issues associated with the Highgate 'runaway' a while back. Is there not a connection between the A and S stock air systems, such that the A stock could be used to provide air to release the brakes? Or are we talking about a unit so b*ggered that it has to be dragged completely dead? Surely compound incidents like this just demonstrate the usefulness of having crossovers on the four track section. I guess the beancounter who works out whether it's cost-effective to have crossovers is a different beancounter from the one who has to deal with the costs of a delay. The Jubilee Line won't allow Met trains on their track and in areas where the TBTC-system is in use it's not possible anyway. Joined-up thinking? Thus the crossover at Finchley Road N/B has never been reinstated. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 18:44:59 GMT
Furthermore, I have heard, engineers (and other stock move) trains can't get to (and from) the Bakerloo at Baker Street at the moment without a full possession southwards from Dollis Hill.
If that is so, such is the price of progress.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 19:35:16 GMT
But the old system is there on standby why cant they take the bags off the heads and switch it back on for such a stock move? Surely keeping the old system on standby from Neasden - the connection onto the Bakerloo would be better and easier than a possession?
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282 
|
Post by Ben on Feb 6, 2011 19:38:30 GMT
Well thats dumb. Surely somewhere someone in a position of influence must at least hope for such things to be resolved/reinstated at some point in the future? Dstock7080, I notice on the list that Edgware Road - GPS isn't included. Is this because it falls with the Mets S8 programme? And what about Acton - Rayners  |
|
|
|
Post by Bighat on Feb 6, 2011 20:32:49 GMT
Furthermore, I have heard, engineers (and other stock move) trains can't get to (and from) the Bakerloo at Baker Street at the moment without a full possession southwards from Dollis Hill. If that is so, such is the price of progress. It must be fairly recent then. I took a number of photos last year of a Bakerloo Line train (722) en route between Stonebridge Park to Ealing Common Depots and back. I have the units (3536/3265) towards Ealing at Rayners Lane as it reversed eastbound out of the westbound platform, as a Met Line A stock simulaneously headed off towards Harrow on the Hill. Later, I have pictures of the same train on its way back entering Wembley Park (Met) and later at Baker Street (JUbilee) and taking a green (with feathers, signal BM2) to change onto the Bakerloo. |
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 6, 2011 21:07:53 GMT
Dstock7080, I notice on the list that Edgware Road - GPS isn't included. Is this because it falls with the Mets S8 programme? And what about Acton - Rayners Baker Street-Tower Hill/Aldgate East is indeed included in the S8 programme and is next. Acton-Rayners Lane isn't included in either. |
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Feb 6, 2011 21:21:56 GMT
Thus the crossover at Finchley Road N/B has never been reinstated. Oh how I wish I'd gone to William Hill* on that prediction. The day it was taken away I knew it would never be back. It was nothing like the Camden Town set of points. *Other suitable gambling establishments are available. |
|
|
|
Post by citysig on Feb 6, 2011 21:27:26 GMT
Furthermore, I have heard, engineers (and other stock move) trains can't get to (and from) the Bakerloo at Baker Street at the moment without a full possession southwards from Dollis Hill. If that is so, such is the price of progress. Indeed it is true. The Bakerloo can currently only be accessed via a series of long-winded and totally impractical shunt moves around various freight only branches of inner-London Network Rail, and end up at the northern end of the line. That, or as you say, a possession of the railway. |
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,196
|
Post by Tom on Feb 6, 2011 21:51:55 GMT
But the old system is there on standby why cant they take the bags off the heads and switch it back on for such a stock move? Unfortunately once it has been decommissioned (as it has now), to bring it back would require it to be recommissioned, which isn't as simple as just throwing a switch. |
|
|
|
Post by phillw48 on Feb 6, 2011 21:58:59 GMT
Do TfL still produce the engineers maps showing the routes to be used for the engineers trains? I have one of these maps showing the route from Lille Bridge to Hainault for engineering trains. There are quite a lot of different maps, I think they are or were produced for specific engineering works. They are based on the Beck style pocket maps with the route to be used highlighted.
|
|
|
|
Post by andypurk on Feb 6, 2011 22:10:08 GMT
Furthermore, I have heard, engineers (and other stock move) trains can't get to (and from) the Bakerloo at Baker Street at the moment without a full possession southwards from Dollis Hill. If that is so, such is the price of progress. Indeed it is true. The Bakerloo can currently only be accessed via a series of long-winded and totally impractical shunt moves around various freight only branches of inner-London Network Rail, and end up at the northern end of the line. That, or as you say, a possession of the railway. As some of the battery locomotives are fitted with a Central line signalling interface and some with a Victoria line interface, are there also plans to fit some with the Jubilee system for engineering trains and stock transfers? |
|
|
|
Post by dangeruxb on Feb 8, 2011 14:37:46 GMT
A couple of sightings from yesterday:-
21018 Train 465 heading for Baker St - 1st day in service?
21013 Train 441 going oos at Uxbridge
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 15:30:58 GMT
I was on 441 yesterday afternoon - same formation (21013+21014). Did Harrow-Baker St-Watford-Baker Street. All very good apart from all doors on the leading car didn't open at Finchley Road, Northwick Park and Croxley, all on the northbound. Otherwise, faultless - and a good comfortable ride to boot!
|
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Feb 8, 2011 17:48:16 GMT
A Stock can't push out S Stock. Not powerful enough! A Stock can push out an 'S' Stock, I have witnessed it done and am currently putting together some guidance around the process following this incident. The S Stock apparently had an ACM* failure. They had to get another S Stock to rescue it. There weren't any OK to go in the depot so they had to get the other one that was in service. There was also a cock-up on the Jub as well, so getting into Neasden was difficult. Never rains but it pours eh? The train did not have an ACM failure, we lost both ACM's but this was due to another fault. You are right about the Jubilee though, it also had difficulties. |
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Feb 8, 2011 17:49:57 GMT
The first S7 unit should be down in London by or hopefully before 31 March. But watch this space! We are holding that back at the moment. |
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Feb 8, 2011 17:53:45 GMT
Does the S Stock have Spring-Applied Parking Brakes on all cars? If so, then without main line air, if you're using an assisting train you're pushing not only the weight of the defective train but also against brakes hard on. These can be isolated but then this brings up issues associated with the Highgate 'runaway' a while back. Is there not a connection between the A and S stock air systems, such that the A stock could be used to provide air to release the brakes? Or are we talking about a unit so b*ggered that it has to be dragged completely dead? No, 'A' cannot pass air to an 'S'. You can mechanically couple only. We would never release all the brakes on a defective train before a push out. On 'S' you would need to release the brakes and then a number of Spring Applied Parking Brakes (SAPB's), but pushing through the remaining SAPB's (which secures the train in the event of a breakaway). |
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Feb 8, 2011 17:55:16 GMT
It is the S8 test train, well one of them! It has been reformed into 7 cars for testing on the rest of the network. Will it be 21001+21002 then, since 21099+21100 is still in London? Yes. |
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Feb 8, 2011 18:13:02 GMT
Major disruption seems to be a fairly regular occurance for whatever reason - probably signal failures are top of the list and all are wearing the regular customers down. We have had two major failures of 'S' Stock recently, and whilst this is two too many I would hardly say that it's a regular occurance. We have been running since July after all. I attended both the Uxbridge and the Nesaden incidents in order to assist, and they were both caused by very different conditions. Re the other night, is this true that A stock can't be used to push an S? That seems like a major flaw to me, especially if there are going to be teething problems like this. Would also explain the second S I saw at Wembley Park on P1 - I assume this was going to run wrong line to Neasden to pull the disgraced S back to Wembley, the back down the Depot flyunder? As stated earlier, an 'A' can push an 'S'. The Silver control Incident Officer at the Neasden incident decided not to go for an 'A' to 'S' push and I supported his decision. We would have needed to go trackside to release some SAPB's and this would have meant that the, already severly disrupted, Jubilee line would also have had to be suspended while we did this. On my advice he arranged for an assisting 'S' to be worked back in order to couple up but we continued to try for movement while this was going on. As it happened just as the assisting train was about to leave Wembley Park we managed to get the defective train moving. This surely has to be sorted out? OK, S stock is heavier I assume but surely an A stock must be able to move it, even if it is very slowly? I can see this being a regular problem that's not going to win any friends, especially if the S delivery to the Met is going to be paused at 40 trains, this must mean there are still going to be A stocks running for maybe the next three years? 'A' and 'S' inter-running is for a very short period of time, even with the S7 break. We do not see this as being a regular occurance either now or in the future but as I have said one failure is one too many. As a result I (along with some of my team and our engineering colleagues) have issued some further instructions to operational staff and are also in the process of writing up some additional procedures to make the recovery process more robust. I find myself again having to apologise to you all for 'S' Stock related disruption and can only assure you that we continue to test off site and continue to work closely with all parties to try and minimise the amount of train service affecting failures. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 20:35:04 GMT
Prjb, I have no doubt you and the rest of the project team are doing a fantastic job. It wouldn't be a project if there weren't teething issues.
You'll be glad you weren't on the Desiro project on the Great Eastern. They had severe coupling and electrical issues. On more than one occasion passengers were left in the dark with no aircon for hours while rescue attempts were made. In the end some withdrawn 312's had to be brought out of mothballs for a few weeks while the new units were modified. It was chaos but the 360's have settled down and are now much more robust. In fact they were the only outer suburbans that didn't go wrong during the cold snap.
|
|
|
|
Post by redsetter on Feb 8, 2011 21:52:03 GMT
A Stock can't push out S Stock. Not powerful enough! A Stock can push out an 'S' Stock, I have witnessed it done and am currently putting together some guidance around the process following this incident. i remember reading the s stock on test to amersham was followed by an a stock in case of problems,it would be a potentially embarrassing sight in front of passengers who had been left stranded though during traveling hours'. |
|
|
|
Post by dangeruxb on Feb 10, 2011 14:18:51 GMT
Some more confirmations on S Stock Trains:-
21003 Train 465 on 08/02
21018 Train 465 on 09/02
21003 Train 441 on 09/02
Took Train 465 from Finchley Rd to Uxbridge on the 8th. Driver had a bit of a 'micro shunt' in trying to get lined up to open the doors at Finchley Road! First time I'd taken one on the 'fast bit' between Finchley Rd & Wembley Pk and noticed that the ride through Neasden is still 'rocky' but of course you dont get the extra bounce from the seats like you do in the A Stock, so I managed to stay on the seat for without bracing for impact.
I still notice were on 'all door' opening, whilst I can understand this on the busy sections, when is it going to be employed on the branch sections? With no bottoms to the seats, there is a hefty draft blowing around your ankles when your sat at a station!
|
|
