metman
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Post by metman on Dec 4, 2010 16:33:05 GMT
Pre 1994
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2010 16:43:44 GMT
haven't a clue ! was still at school then (wish I was now) my first hand memories/knowledge of LU only span from around 2002 when I first moved to London for a job! |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 4, 2010 20:29:05 GMT
Wasn't the last Chesham train all stations in the old days too? 0010? post edit to state - 'depends what you mean by old days !!!' Indeed - which decade would you like?  I'll have a look after some scoff - it's just giving out the 'I'm ready' smell from the kitchen! |
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Post by andypurk on Dec 4, 2010 20:51:31 GMT
i dont want to speculate but Sarah Siddons is a possibilty you never know but reasons why I doubt this ... Presuming you mean SS running to Chesham 1.) There have been no test runs booked (as is usual when SS is planned to perform) 2.) You'd be reduced to 2 coaches for the final days service (if indeed SS + 2 coaches + class 20 fit in Chalfont bay ? possibly not?) If it wasn't runnning into the bay then it's hardly commemorating the passing of the shuttle! The TC stock has run, in the past, with just Sarah Siddons; for example on 5th September 1998 when a formation of Sarah + 4TC was running from Baker Street to/from Uxbridge. You don't need a class 20 on the other end. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2010 21:04:51 GMT
you never know but reasons why I doubt this ... Presuming you mean SS running to Chesham 1.) There have been no test runs booked (as is usual when SS is planned to perform) 2.) You'd be reduced to 2 coaches for the final days service (if indeed SS + 2 coaches + class 20 fit in Chalfont bay ? possibly not?) If it wasn't runnning into the bay then it's hardly commemorating the passing of the shuttle! The TC stock has run, in the past, with just Sarah Siddons; for example on 5th September 1998 when a formation of Sarah + 4TC was running from Baker Street to/from Uxbridge. You don't need a class 20 on the other end. I do seem to remember an older photo of that scenario Therefore bearing in mind that whenever SS has come out to play in the last 3 and a half years since it's restoration it has had a 20 on the other end, I would imagine there could be an operational rule that has been put in practice in that SS is not allowed to operate on it's own and must have a loco at the other in end in case of failure? This also begs the question, are the driving cabs in the 4TC still operable? These things take time/expense to keep up to operational standards If it has been deemed that SS must operate with an 'insurance' policy on the other end, perhaps the 4TC is no longer in working condition in terms of being a driven vehicle as it wouldn't be needed in anycase? The railway is a different place in 2010 compared to 1998 in terms of operating costs and performance statistics etc. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 4, 2010 21:21:33 GMT
You don't need a class 20 on the other end. I cannot comment on the need for a class 20 on the other end, but when running loco-hauled, surely you need a run-round loop at the other end? AIUI Chesham is lacking in this regard? |
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Post by andypurk on Dec 4, 2010 21:27:43 GMT
The TC stock has run, in the past, with just Sarah Siddons; for example on 5th September 1998 when a formation of Sarah + 4TC was running from Baker Street to/from Uxbridge. You don't need a class 20 on the other end. I do seem to remember an older photo of that scenario Therefore bearing in mind that whenever SS has come out to play in the last 3 and a half years since it's restoration it has had a 20 on the other end, I would imagine there could be an operational rule that has been put in practice in that SS is not allowed to operate on it's own and must have a loco at the other in end in case of failure? This also begs the question, are the driving cabs in the 4TC still operable? These things take time/expense to keep up to operational standards If it has been deemed that SS must operate with an 'insurance' policy on the other end, perhaps the 4TC is no longer in working condition in terms of being a driven vehicle as it wouldn't be needed in anycase? The railway is a different place in 2010 compared to 1998 in terms of operating costs and performance statistics etc. Without some-one who actually knows the current rules, it is hard to say anything for sure. But I do remember that when 'Sarah' was used with just a TC rake, the TC kept in contact with Sarah via radio, with the TC controls only being used for braking. Keeping the controls active would, of course, still be useful when stock is being shunted around on depot. Operation on the Chesham shuttle would be different from operating on the mainline as any failure would only affect the branch and not other services. |
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Post by andypurk on Dec 4, 2010 21:30:26 GMT
You don't need a class 20 on the other end. I cannot comment on the need for a class 20 on the other end, but when running loco-hauled, surely you need a run-round loop at the other end? AIUI Chesham is lacking in this regard? No, because the loco propels in one direction with a driver in the cab of the TC set to control braking. This was how the train ran in '98 shuttling from Baker Street - Uxbridge (neither of which have run round loops either). It is also the reason why the TC units exist in the first place, as they were used push/pull with class 33/1s. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 4, 2010 21:56:11 GMT
No, because the loco propels in one direction with a driver in the cab of the TC set to control braking. This was how the train ran in '98 shuttling from Baker Street - Uxbridge (neither of which have run round loops either). It is also the reason why the TC units exist in the first place, as they were used push/pull with class 33/1s. Ahhh sorry: I hadn't realised that the TC was an early kind of [mainline speak]DBSO[/mainline speak], my bad. I suspect the going and stopping being dependent on different people whilst carrying passengers is ruled out by today's risk assesment except in an emergency. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2010 22:09:42 GMT
But I do remember that when 'Sarah' was used with just a TC rake, the TC kept in contact with Sarah via radio, with the TC controls only being used for braking. Keeping the controls active would, of course, still be useful when stock is being shunted around on depot. Operation on the Chesham shuttle would be different from operating on the mainline as any failure would only affect the branch and not other services. I see, so in '98, the 4TC was not driving the train, purely brkaing when instructed and the 4TC driver was also presumably radio-ing instructions to SS when power was required! I was pondering how this would work, as SS would obviously need some kind of push/pull cabling as per a 33/1, which I don't remember seeing pictures of. That said the pictures of the event I have seen were of the front end variety, no detail pics of the connection between SS and the 4TC. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 4, 2010 22:13:37 GMT
I was pondering how this would work, as SS would obviously need some kind of push/pull cabling as per a 33/1, which I don't remember seeing pictures of. That said the pictures of the event I have seen were of the front end variety, no detail pics of the connection between SS and the 4TC. Having now done a little 'reading around' by the sounds of it there is no connection needed, just a man at the front end with a radio to say "more go" or "less go" and able to vent the train brake pipe when needed. I'm not sure that 'elf and safe tea' would be keen on that sort of operation with passengers. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2010 22:38:23 GMT
I was pondering how this would work, as SS would obviously need some kind of push/pull cabling as per a 33/1, which I don't remember seeing pictures of. That said the pictures of the event I have seen were of the front end variety, no detail pics of the connection between SS and the 4TC. Having now done a little 'reading around' by the sounds of it there is no connection needed, just a man at the front end with a radio to say "more go" or "less go" and able to vent the train brake pipe when needed. I'm not sure that 'elf and safe tea' would be keen on that sort of operation with passengers. yes - no connection needed for this form of operation of the 4TC - ie NOT actually driving/powering from the 4TC cab in the days of 33/1 push pull and 4TC, they had whacking great jumper cables on the cab fronts that connected to the 4TC that enabled proper push pull operation, ie - the driver in the 4TC cab leading driving at 90mph with the 33/1 powering at the rear, with no staff on the loco |
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 5, 2010 13:09:33 GMT
We must also remember that the 4TC sets were powered by 4REPs from Waterloo to Bournemouth and then the 33 took over.
It would be nice if Met No1 could be used to push pull the 4TCs on the shuttle although it is a little last minute!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2010 14:40:57 GMT
Can sarah siddons pull A stock - is it physically possible?  |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 5, 2010 14:51:24 GMT
Having now done a little 'reading around' by the sounds of it there is no connection needed, just a man at the front end with a radio to say "more go" or "less go" and able to vent the train brake pipe when needed. I'm not sure that 'elf and safe tea' would be keen on that sort of operation with passengers. That's more or less how double heading was done in the days of steam - each driver is responsible for going, but the front man controls the brakes on the whole train. When preserved railways run double headers they still do it this way. (One of them also operates an "autotrain" (push-pull operation), which requires co-operation between the driver on the autocoach in front and the fireman in the loco at the back). Before radios, whistle or bell codes sufficed. The only difference here would be that the "first" loco is an unpowered TC, and the second loco is Sarah, as the fifth (last) vehicle rather than the second. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 5, 2010 19:42:39 GMT
Sorry, to clarify would the person at the front of propelled train have full braking control (ie can apply in increments, release et cetera) or simply the ability to vent the train pipe and thus bring the train to a stand in an emergency?
If it's the former then go for it, if its the latter I'd be a little cagey about running with a train full of passengers (in an emergency or ety then fine).
I suppose there'd also need to be a trainstop on the 4TC, this is all sounding a bit fantasy now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2010 20:01:55 GMT
Sorry, to clarify would the person at the front of propelled train have full braking control (ie can apply in increments, release et cetera) or simply the ability to vent the train pipe and thus bring the train to a stand in an emergency? If it's the former then go for it, if its the latter I'd be a little cagey about running with a train full of passengers (in an emergency or ety then fine). I suppose there'd also need to be a trainstop on the 4TC, this is all sounding a bit fantasy now. I wouldn't worry about it, I really cannot see SS being put into service next weekend for a number of reasons - see my posts about the capacity of C&L bay and more to the point no test/familiarisation runs having been booked Remember the test train ops who drive SS only do so once a year or so, hence the need to have familiarisation runs (as well as giving the old girl a test herself) No such runs have been booked and such things are ordinarily booked up 2 to 4 weeks prior to operating I think it's the age old (and obvious rumour) case of ... ' there's an event on the Met of note coming up - throw up the old Sarah Siddons card ' |
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Post by citysig on Dec 5, 2010 21:15:17 GMT
At time of writing, it will simply be a case of the shuttle running all day as per the timetable, with the trips around the middle part of the day turned into "an event." I plan to let the 4-car leave the branch once everyone has got tired and gone home. Probably wait until after 0400 Sunday? ;D There will be no special trains or early finish to service or anything of that nature. The S-stock will not be in service on the branch at any point during the next week or two. Let us remember that the line is not closing - infact quite the opposite in that it is getting "an improvement." I use the term cautiously, as that will remain to be seen. But regardless of what happens, it is what the residents campaigned long and hard for, and won that campaign. I suppose it was just fortunate that we decided to get trains that were too long for the bay at around the same time - so maybe they needn't have... So whilst the last trips are commemorated, the glasses should also be raised to those who won their campaign. Chesham is about to join the network properly, and will become a fully paid-up full-time member of all the good and sometimes bad that is the Met Line ;D ;D The 4-car units will still be out and about for a while yet - albeit joined to another 4-car unit. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 5, 2010 21:55:10 GMT
Quite, the flexibility of the double ended units is very useful!
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Post by andypurk on Dec 5, 2010 22:13:52 GMT
Sorry, to clarify would the person at the front of propelled train have full braking control (ie can apply in increments, release et cetera) or simply the ability to vent the train pipe and thus bring the train to a stand in an emergency? If it's the former then go for it, if its the latter I'd be a little cagey about running with a train full of passengers (in an emergency or ety then fine). I suppose there'd also need to be a trainstop on the 4TC, this is all sounding a bit fantasy now. The driver in the TC cab had full control of the train brake, but had to ask for power from SS. The TC sets have a compressor, for braking; powered by the ETH connection from a loco (SS had ETH connectors fitted at some point) and can so can brake the train 'properly'. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2010 22:37:14 GMT
We have overlooked the last 4 Car in passenger service on the Met main TONIGHT at 0007 Chesham to Wembley Park unless Met Boy fancies making next Saturdays empty from Rickmansworh a 0037 Chesham to Wembley Park, not realy likely. Over to to the Met management for a A60 farewell then................
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2010 22:45:13 GMT
We have overlooked the last 4 Car in passenger service on the Met main TONIGHT at 0007 Chesham to Wembley Park unless Met Boy fancies making next Saturdays empty from Rickmansworh a 0037 Chesham to Wembley Park, not realy likely. Over to to the Met management for a A60 farewell then................ last SB tonight, but surely the 'LAST' booked 4 car on the met main would be next Saturday mornings 05xx Wembley Park - Chesham? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 6, 2010 10:19:32 GMT
Found this...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2010 10:22:11 GMT
We have overlooked the last 4 Car in passenger service on the Met main TONIGHT at 0007 Chesham to Wembley Park unless Met Boy fancies making next Saturdays empty from Rickmansworh a 0037 Chesham to Wembley Park, not realy likely. Over to to the Met management for a A60 farewell then................ last SB tonight, but surely the 'LAST' booked 4 car on the met main would be next Saturday mornings 05xx Wembley Park - Chesham? Many thanks, I do stand corrected last SB south of Rickmansworth.  |
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Post by rogere on Dec 6, 2010 13:54:08 GMT
So whilst the last trips are commemorated, the glasses should also be raised to those who won their campaign. Chesham is about to join the network properly, and will become a fully paid-up full-time member of all the good and sometimes bad that is the Met Line ;D ;D Surely that should read: Chesham is about to Rejoin the network properly... |
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Post by 21146 on Dec 6, 2010 15:38:36 GMT
Well at least the shuttle will go out with a whimper if not a bang.
And there's no reason it can't be operated/reinstated as a 4-car in the coming months should engineering work or other factors dictate.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 6, 2010 16:28:05 GMT
Are you sure about that?....... the bay platform at Chalfont will be removed as part of enabling works for the resignalling. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 6, 2010 17:06:24 GMT
Will it actually be filled in, or will just the trackwork be removed? Or will it end up similar to Rickys 3rd?
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Post by 21146 on Dec 6, 2010 18:07:42 GMT
Will it actually be filled in, or will just the trackwork be removed? Or will it end up similar to Rickys 3rd? The new signalling's not coming any time soon. |
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Post by citysig on Dec 6, 2010 19:01:45 GMT
The bay won't be going anywhere fast, and will still be technically "serviceable." The rails will of course rust over fairly quickly, meaning any extended non-use will make it's future use more and more unlikely.
I haven't seen any plans, but it wouldn't surprise me if the bridges are burnt quickly and some bright spark (no pun intended) decides the juice rails can be ripped up.
If that doesn't happen, I doubt if it will be pressed into use for engineering work weekends, but never say never - the "old" Circle Line service has seen several re-uses. Of course as the months pass, it will become more and more unlikely once the double-ended units get scrapped.
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