New Arrival.

Now, I know I shouldn't really 'bite' with this one, but I am going to have a go at responding to this whimsical rambling rant as best I can! ;D

Your opinion of how the new stock looks is just that, your opinion. Thanks for sharing though. I am not sure how having lot's of silver unpainted aluminium trains gave the system character. The train most widely credited as being the quintessential Underground train is a 1938 tube stock and that was red. If you really want to start following your point on to it's logical conclusion though and talk about old underground trains, I am afraid that any fans of our early steam trains (1863 onwards) on the forum will be able to 'trump' you quite conclusively.


Nice to know you like transverse seating arrangements, we have that on 'S' Stock for the Met line.


Oh, I thought you said you liked transverse seating? Now you have confused me!
Just for the record, 'S' Stock is not made out of plastic. Apart from the fact that they would not be very robust for daily use, plastic trains would not stand up to high temperatures and would end up melting.


You don't like curvy bends at the bottom of the bodyside? Oh well, with their curvy lower bodysides (albeit the other way) there goes the CO/CP and 'R' Stock then! I thought you liked old Underground trains? You have confused me again.


Once we get 'S' Stock into service you must point out all these intrusive cameras. The CCTV on 'S' Stock is deliberately unobtrusive actually. If you have a wider concern with the use of CCTV in society then that is an issue for you to take up with society (your local MP may be a good place to start) not with a public transport body.

Incidentally, did you consider the massive safety benefits that CCTV offers our staff? A driver will be able to view the relevant area before having to walk back to investigate an incident which will give them a huge advantage over walking back into the unknown. I am guessing you haven't considered the safety benefits then?


Oh, so you don't like 'A' Stock either (since they have transverse seating). So you don't like 'A' Stock or the classic CO/CP and 'R' Stocks. Working on this basis you won't like 'D' Stock because they also have some transverse seating too. Ahh, you're a 'C' Stock fan!!


I am not sure how much more wrong you can be in one rant, this has to be a forum record! Modern lighting produces more 'lux' and also consumes less energy, this is widely considred to be a good thing. In my opinion, if there is one thing Bombardier are good at it is their lighting schemes.


The new seats are wider (slightly) than a 'D' Stock.


Wow! You got it all wrong in my opinion. If you want a trampoline I suggest you pop out to the Garden, I personally like my seats to be firm and supportive.


Hmm, what can I say to this? Erm, they are just trains - we will not be advocating anyone starts hugging them or anything of that sort. We carry 3 million people a day and sometimes (in December normally) we top 4 million, the new seating layouts are designed to cope.... Oh whats the point?!


The Underground will always have character, I suspect the problem here is that you wouldn't know a heritage feature if it jumped up, hit you in the face, and left a Newjohnston typeface mark on your forehead!!


I love your use of the term 'old stock'. Dreadnoughts are old stock to some people on this forum! ;D


I have lived in London my entire life and it has changed massively in that time, largely for the better, but I am not going to get dragged in to a debate about society at large. The old stock is either time expired or about to become time expired, you need to wake up and smell the brake dust.

Just as an aside, if in your opinion we will lose it all forever, how do you explain the Acton Museums 1938 tube stock running around the system? Oh no sorry, I forgot you don't like those horrible red trains!

A serious question, would this be why the newer stocks seem to have smoother/shinier surfaces?

prjb.
1. definitly not these ugly red white and blue trains.
2. Its nice to face the way you are travelling.
3. My mistake if their not plastic. They suredo look plasticy.
4. The slight dip on the bottom of the CO/CP and 'R' Stock was nice as it bent slightly outwards and with the whole side being flat panel and not like the new S stock as if stuck together with loads of bits from scrap plastic refuge. The S stock looks like an overground train. Not a tube. Haha. Its terrible.
5. Yes alot of safety benefits for your drivers and staff having cameras on each car. Every platform on every station has them. No need to get on the train and have them pointing all over. These cameras are not monitored by anyone, not as if a maniac will come on a train and try to break a drivers door down then someone at security watching the cameras will call the police. Haha. Very safe hey. Let us get away from big brother for at least our journey. Its bad enough haveing to cope with these ugly new S stock trains as it is.
6. Some mix and match seating is not a problem. Its having the whole train where you have to face each other.
7. Lets travel a little bit more cosey. Nothing wrong with a train not being over bright with unnatural light.
8. Oh! The new seat are SLIGHTLY wider. Great! Haha. But what about length wise?
9. YOU may like your seats more firm and supportive but I never mentioned not having them unsupportive. i said bouncy. These seats have been designed similar to seating at certain facilities where the aim is to be a little uncomfy so as people do not get too comfy on them.
10. The old seatings coped just fine. No need to change them.
11. The Underground WILL have lost its character once all the ugly new rolling stock is up and running. Why not just merge with the overground with all sub surface lines and call it british rail. Ofcourse the underground will have lost its character. Technology, modernisation and development does not always mean good.
12. Old stock meaning anything silver for me or even backwards to red no probs. Just not the ugly red white and blues.
13. You may like the change of London but many do not. You may like all these quick pop up rubbishy new housing estates and glassy office buildings and ugly S stock trains but not everyone does. As I said not everyone likes everything about technology, modernisation or development when it comes to a city. You may want your kids to play playstation 3, have an iphone and do nothing but eat fast food, kebabs and chips while watching back to the future on your 12" plasma but id rather my kids grow up learning and enjoying the simple things in life where technology is not involved and eating good healthy food and reading books. And as for having old trains in a museum its nice but its not the same as having them as part of your city, riding the lines on them, watching them.
14. Yes mark my words. In a normal biro or fountain pen but please no pens with lights, audio and cameras on them. Just a normal pen.
15. Oh the new S stock has better anti vandal measures on them do they. Oh I see like cctv. Yes lets walk onto a train with our hood on so the cctv cant see us then we can tag up. What plastic film on the glass to stop glass etch being used. Hey they will only come with sand paper to some crazy tool to scratch their name onto the glass. Oh yes RED. WHITE. ANNNNND. BLUE. Hmmm. Lets use black paint on the white parts. Yellow paint on the red parts. And emmm today lets choose a nice pastel green for the blue parts. Oh lets not forget to scratch our names onto these plasticy looking panels. Oh I forgot. What about the chemicals found in your local DIY shop. Yes lets use some of them to burn the paint off these ugly trains. Lets make them look even more ugly with our mongrel jibberish. You see prjb...Trains are never graffiti proof. Silver trains were better becasue the graffiti got cleaned. They could not be scratched or have chemical graffiti on them which makes them look horific. Look at the H&C and the A stock nowadays. Just look at the, Wait till the ugly S stock gets it. Give it 2 years tops. And these vandals will have them look even worse.
16. Soory my mistake. not plastic. Tho plasticy looking. Powder coated, neoprene linings for anti vandal measures. Hahahaha. What a joke. You sound like your serious there prjb. Mmmm. prjb. Are you???
17. The underground have upgraded into a 21st century system. Ha. They sure have with our money. But watch... In a few years down the line they will have another idea to to what... Try and upgrade the system. And these new stock will become old new to them. And they will have another poor excuse to upgrade their stock once again. Using whose money. Our hard earned money. Ripped of by the London Underground.
18. I wouldnt go as far as gatemen and lift operators but if I had the power all the old silver stock would be back in like new. And I would also ban kebab shops and make people like you who think their clever redundant with no benefits.
19. How can you even think of comparing taxi prices with Lu prices. They are both TERRIBLE. I take it you got a freedom pass and dont feel or care about the yearly fare increases. With LU giving all sorts of pathetic excuses. Come on most people in the world know what a rip off the London Underground is when it comes to fare prices. Good on those poor kids who jump the barriers. Or crawl under them as I have seen many a times. prjb you really are pathetic trying to compare a taxi price. What??! Becasue taxis fares are more expensive does this mean the LU fare prices are not. Stop reading this your little 'uns are cold turkying for their daily fix of kebab and chips.
20. Older than 12. And yes vending machines. Not little station corner shops selling packs of crisps for £1.20 or a bottle of water for £2 like airport or train station prices. Just simple vending machines where people can pay normal prices for a drink or snack while waiting for a train not having to go outside or mess their journey up just to get a quick fix.
21. Oh yes I forgot having the lights slightly dimmed will really bring out the muggers. Hmmm. Yes. Ok prjb. If you say so.
22. Old days but not today. Dont confuse yourself....... Please.
23. Oh so you speak for everyone now do you prjb. Or are you still confused?
24. Please. Dont bring the taxis up again. We know they are expensive. It does not change the fact that LU are rip offs.
25. Ha. Confused you there prjb. No number 25. We dont need to see the british flag on all ugly S stock trains. Or any new trains. Bring back the silver backs. prjb. I suggest you teach yourself to eat healthy. Allow the kebabs and fast food. Let you read a book and forget playing with yourself using too much modern day technology.

I don't know what to say to all that!

I will try to address your points, again, but as you haven't made direct quotes it may be a bit difficult.
They may be ugly to you, but as you clearly do not have a grasp of either our heritage or our current vision there is no point in taking this one further. If you don't like our current stock that is your prerogative, but you do not make a case for keeping old time expired stock very well i'm afraid. If you thought you could pop in to this forum and just start making random non-sensical comments without being challenged by people who clearly know more than you (and there are lots of us on here) then you are in for a shock.


I agree and look forward (did you see what I did there?!!) to your patronage on the transverse seats of 'S' Stock.


Only to you, everyone else realises that they are made out of the same aluminium that you keep harping on about.


Firstly, 'S' Stock is not a tube train but I will let that one go as you clearly do not understand the subject matter you are trying (and failing I might add) to argue against. I suggest you get your eyes checked if you think CO/CP and 'R' Stock had a slight bend at the bottom. I don't mind if you don't like the design of 'S' Stock, in fact in your case I am positively content to accept that fact. As I said earlier though if you think you can pop on here and make comments like the one above and not get challenged then you are sorely mistaken, this forum is filled with people who are experts in their field or have a huge interest and understanding of modern mass transit systems (both staff and enthusiasts) so you are not going to get an easy ride when you make flippant, throw away comments with no substance behind them.


You have no understanding of our system, and of how security and safety works in a modern age. The cameras are monitored and also are recording but you wouldn't know that because you are too busy making stupid comments. The driver on an 'S' Stock can check his/her CCTV whenever they choose (when the train is staionary) and this wil allow them to ensure their own safety before proceeding to deal with an incident (especially in a tunnel where we don't have any station camera's suprisingly). I love the fact that you think you understand what our staff face and have to deal with on a dialy basis, it may be best you just don't comment on things you know nothing about or alternatively ask constructive questions and await responses from people who do understand what goes on. There are lots of staff and ex-staff members on the forum who will e only to glad to answer your questions and help you understand how thw network operates and why, but you are going to have to change the tone of your posts first.


S8's for the Met have just this seating arrangement. S7's have a 'C' Stock type arrangement to suit the services they are running, I suggest you take a look at how 'C' stock cope with large numbers of passengers.


Provided you are not partially sighted or suffering from other disabilities, the type of lighting on modern stock is very carefully designed to meet regulations and create a nice atmoshere. We are simply not going to give you bare strip lighting, that failed regularly, like you may have seen on a 59ts.


Yes, they are slighty wider - we could have increased them more but that would have reduced the amount of seats we could provide. The length has been designed to accomodate a 5th percentile female through to a 95th percentile male without causing any pinch under the knee. We also allow for secular growth over the 40 year life cycle of the train. Have you noticed a theme developing here? If you ask a sensible question, you get a sensible answer.


I must have missed you at the design reviews for the seating, you must have been there as you speak with such authority. Don't tell me how the seats were designed. Bouncy seats are not supportive by the very nature of the fact the are... Bouncy!


How do you know how the old seats coped? Have you seen the amount of maintenance that goes on to keep the sprung, 'horse hair' filled 'A' Stock seats going? There is every need to change them actually, fire regulations demand a certain level of protection, ergonomics demands a certain level of comfort, anti vandalism measures (your favourite topic) demand cetain measures be taken.


Once your in charge and we see the return of all the phone card machines, thats when we will lose our character. All the while we have dedicated experts protecting our heritage and design we will not lose our historical reference points. technological advances do not mean we lose our heritage, it just means our system adapts to cope with ever increasing demand.


If you are looking for a return to unpainted and difficult to protect body finishes you are not going to be happy. The system has moved on, and as someone who worked on the Northern line in the late 80's early 90's, I can assure you it is for the better in virtyually every respect.


What the hell has this insulting and, frankly, slightly 'altered' rant got to do with transport (the primary purpose of which this forum is here to discuss)? If you wish to continue a sensible debate on transport matters then feel free to do so, if you want to start posting utter nonsense then I suggest you go elsewhere.

The only comment I am going to respond to here is the one about old trains, the problem with old trains is... They are old! They are time expired and past their useable life. It is nice to see them in a museum but that is as far as it can go. By your rationale we would never have progresed beyond steam trains.


I made my feelings very clear on this subject. I am going to politely inform you, again, that I I most certainly will not be marking your words.


You are confusing security and anti-vandal measures here. CCTV is about staff security and prevention of crime (by letting criminals know they are being monitored and recorded for evidential purposes). I never said trains were graffiti proof, I said that the anti-vandal measures on our modern stock are far superior to those which we had on our 'old' (your term not mine) stock. Modern anti-graffiti measures isn't really about stopping graffiti in the first place, it is more about making it easy to remove and return the environment back to it's original condition.


I am very serious actually, you will find that the vast majority of members on this forum are serious too. It's all about making the surfaces easy to clean and withstand long term cleaning methods. We can't stop graffiti in all instances but we can ensure that the surfaces are robust enough to withstand the cleaning regime which will remove the offending graffiti.


I am glad you agree that we have upgraded the system into the 21st century. The 'few years' you are talking about is 40 in the case of the 'S' Stock. Your statement here doesn't bear out the facts. 'A' Stock is 50 years old, 'C' Stock is nearly 40 years old, and 'D' Stock is nearly 30 years old - that is what I call vaue for money for my tax paying pound.


If you were in charge! ;D ;D

What have kebab shops got to do with anything?

Just to be clear though, I don't think I am particularly clever - I just know more about the London Underground than you do. If you stick around the forum for long enough (as I have) you will find that there is a wealth of experience and knowledge on here with which you can benefit from (as I have). I suspect however, if you carry on in this line you will waste your time here and not get the full experience but that will be your loss.


Again, an insulting and non-sensical rant. How dare you discuss my children (assuming that I have children that is)? Get back on topic quickly before an admin comes along and see's this.

You seem fixated with fast food and plastics, perhaps you have mixed the two together and eaten them, thus your subsequent state of mind explains the nonsense you are typing in this post.

A taxi is an alternative to public transport, that is why I compared the two. You could always use your bycycle and face the congestion and pollution and associated costs (they are not small these days) that go with bike ownership.


Start acting like it when you post then, you might get better responses from the forum members.


Just simple vending machines, that are ugly and cover up our heritage and result in staff assaults when people can't get their change out of them. You love your technology too much, I prefer human interaction at a shop where you can support local small businesses rather than large corporations who install thousands of faceless machines.


I do say so, but more importantly the security experts say so too. Back when your beloved 'old' trains were running around, the system had a terrible record for crime and lone females did not travel at night. Since improving security and station ambience we have seen crime drop to record lows and our customers (particularly females) telling us they feel safe to travel again.


I am going to suggest that you are only confused person here.


Lets see how many members of this forum support your insulting, ranting, rude, and generally confusing posts. We are here to learn from one another and discuss tranport matters sensibly. Whilst it is not my place, I personally hope that this forum has no room for people such as you who degenerate good solid threads into farce with your nonsense.

Just for the record, I am confused where you are concerned.


I was hailing a 'virtual' taxi to get away from you actually.


Back to fast food again, you have an obsession. Back to nonsensical rants that detract from the thread. Back to insults. Back to wild assumptions about people you know nothing about.

You really are an excellent new addition to the forum. Just to be clear and in the interests of the wider good of this forum, I will not be responding to any more of your nonsense.

Taxi!

Well, when I saw the mock up at Euston I thought the car lighting looked dull and almost oppressive, being hidden behind a grille. Kinda reminded me of the 92 stock where the lighting seems to be tucked away and does offer a good spread of light. Maybe in real life it will not be so bad.
Just my two penneth.

xover

No provision for spiritual growth? Shame. ;D

Totally agree.

I have been reading this thread since its started and a lot of people seem to hate the S Stock, but LUL is a business and not a railway preservation society. It seems it doesn't matter what the people on this forum who are involved in the development of S Stock say, some still want to see old, out of date, expensive rolling stock on the network. To those you have three options:

• Buy a A Stock train and run it on a preserved railway.
  
• Become the Mayor of London and apply what he done with the bendy buses to the S Stock
  
• Accept the change.
  

I don't think he's silly at all. Sarcastic perhaps, but lou7675's comments are not unnecessary and are as perfectly valid as yours, mine or anybody elses for that matter, after all, it's a public forum. There have been a whole raft of complaints on here about upgrades and improvements, mainly for nostalgic reasons, with little thought for the future and it's good to read something positive.

The last few posts by some posters reflect this thread and, indeed, several others quite well: the growing amount of negativity about a range of of issues from supposed tube enthusiasts: x is late, y new train will be rubbish (even though they haven't seen it yet), z new system won't work, etc. make me wonder whether the board has been taken over by the Evening Standard's former owners.

Certainly there are areas where the system as a whole could be better and public patience is obviously wearing a bit thin, but guys (and gals) who tend to dwell on the negative, this forum used to be, and generally still is, a positive place - from a personal point of view, I'd much sooner come and read through the threads if I wasn't going to read what is effectively 'this is rubbish'.

And I don't go back into teaching mode at school until Monday!

Peace and love

lou7675 Wrote,

"Become the Mayor of London and apply what he done with the bendy buses to the S Stock"

If that isn't silly enough for you, I don't know what is, or do you think that quote should be pasted in the English Grammar Rant?

I may have negative views about the new trains but that does not mean I do not want the underground to succeed and provide a good service. No need to take my comments personally like some poeple do. Look, I have even been told by my work colleuge who knows X from Y depot say he hates the new S stock and that the old silver trains were what made the underground what it is. Again his personall view and nothing to take offence to. This is an open forum and we are all allowed to say what we feel.

I remember reading somewhere that your final point is a recognised psychological occurance. Some study showed that people are generally nostalgic for things that happened on average roughly 30 years before the current time. It could also be argued that people long for something they can't have because of the inherrant romanticised nature of an elusive past. Perhaps the next couple of generations will be nostalgic for the upgrade period of the Central Line. Who knows

although there have been many opinions regarding the new trains , the only question i have is , why spend over a million pound per unit refurbing the entire ' D' stock only to get rid of / scrap the entire fleet when its the green lines turn to run the new trains on their line ? doesnt seem practical to me or make good business sense !!