prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 21, 2009 18:19:18 GMT
I do not see them as being special in the same way that some do Well each to their own I suppose, but I work with the A stock every day and they give the Met line a very good atmosphere. Same as on the Northern, when the 95 stock turned up, the whole feeling of the line changed. It went from an interesting line with a real buzz about it, to a plastic, boring, soulless place. I'm seriously worried about the same happening on the Met. We have had this debate before, the rolling stock do not make the line - it is the people that make the line. I worked on the Northern back in the late 80's/early 90's and it wasn't 'buzzing' then! Far from it in fact, it had other lines cast offs for rolling stock and was suffering from serious neglect and most of the staff were looking to travel away as soon as they got their 'motors' exams out of the way. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 18:34:22 GMT
You've obviously never driven one. Then you would be able to tell the difference and see how special they are. Does Chris really have to have driven one to form his own personal preference? He is entitled to his opinion regardless of if he is a passenger or a member of staff. Just for the record, I have driven all the sub-surface stock (not to mention quite a few tube trains) and do not think that 'A' Stock is anything special either. No he doesn't have to have driven one to have an opinion on it. However, those of us who have driven A Stock on a daily basis, have a very high opinion of the stock and a lot of Met staff are sorry to see them go. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 18:55:26 GMT
We have had this debate before, the rolling stock do not make the line - it is the people that make the line. I don't quite that is right, to me it is a big picture, and as for train drivers, they spend most the day on their own in a train so what type of train it is would make quite a difference I think! I spend most of the time in my role (signals) on my own so the people don't really make the line there either. As said, it is a big picture and the trains are a big part of it. As I say I have seen this before, not just on the Northern but on the old Southern Region when the slammers went. It does change a line. I remember my heart sinking when I saw the mock - up at Euston. "Oh god this can't be happening" I thought. I didn't like anything about it so I can't see how that's going to make me happier about the line. Sorry to sound this way about the trains but it is what I think, and a fair few people agree I can tell you. |
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Post by londonstuff on Oct 21, 2009 19:15:43 GMT
If getting a faster, more frequent and brand spanking new train service isn't enough for you, I'd like to know what you'd prefer? Your overall comments are negative, but you don't give any indication of what you'd improve? Maybe the isolation of the signals has made you like this  I also think it's a little insulting to the people working on the project to try and make them as good as possible for both staff and passengers for you to just dismiss what's coming out-of-hand. As a passenger travelling on a passenger-led business, I can tell you what stock I'd prefer to travel on! Going by your logic, we'd still all be on carriages from the 1860's... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 19:19:39 GMT
Going by your logic, we'd still all be on carriages from the 1860's... If we were, we would be stuck with them forever, because of the same reason as the destination displays at Earl's Court. |
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Post by londonstuff on Oct 21, 2009 19:20:41 GMT
Btw, will each line be getting its own moquette? Not sure if this one has been answered before?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 21, 2009 19:24:19 GMT
If getting a faster, more frequent and brand spanking new train service isn't enough for you Let's wait and see on that subject - doubtless it will be an improvement, but it is quite a while off. It's not the place to discuss it, but based on historical stock introductions, the full benefits will not transpire for 3 - 3½ years. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 21, 2009 19:42:44 GMT
I would certainly not like to think that the hard work of the design team is being attacked. PRJB, Tunnel rat, Geoff and many many others have worked hard to create a train that will work on all 4 SSL. We have been treated to sneek previews and premiers and should be glad of that.
The fact that the A stock is so popular is down to their design and reliability. Messers Graff-Baker and Manser did a fine job. They were taylored to meet the needs of the Amersham man who in 1950 had a bigger say than they do now.
The signal upgrade is the problem, the promised capacity won't be with us for 3-5 years.
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Post by North End on Oct 21, 2009 19:50:37 GMT
You won't be saying that once the S stock enters service, and Metropolitan Line passengers are subjected to the same downgrade that London Overground passengers are currently having to get used to. Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, I personally (having experienced 'A' Stock and also being extremely familiar with 'S') think you are wrong. Yes there are slightly less seats, we are working to compensate for that by running more trains per hour, but everything else on the 'S' is far superior to an 'A'. How anyone can claim that an 'S' Stock is a downgrade is beyond me, and please don't compare the 'S' to a 378 because the two are not in any way comparable. 'S' is a bespoke build specifically for the Sub-Surface Railway unlike the 378's which are an 'off the shelf' design. It has less seats, and if the mockup is anything to go by it has the most uncomfortable design of seat I have ever experienced. For people making typical journeys, like Uxbridge to Baker Street, Pinner to Liverpool Street, et cetera, all the gimmick features like air-conditioning will be insignificant due to the seating. And, for me, the claustrophobic bendy-bus style interior of the S stock is in every respect a downgrade from A stock. And like the 378, I suspect the S stock seating and interior layout will quickly prove to be a problem in terms of passenger flows, lack of comfortable standing space, and space for belongings. |
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Post by citysig on Oct 21, 2009 20:13:58 GMT
I think, and this was brought up years ago when the S-stock was but a figment of the design board, that one of the main real issues for regular Met-line customers is the seating layout. It is longitudinal and not the traditional 2+2 / 3+3 layout that seems to suit a more long-distance journey.
I think this has also been raised somewhere here (cue the thread searches ;D ). I think I may have even made a comment or two about everyone having to be treated the same or something - in a purely tongue in cheek dig at Met Passengers (I'm not backing down, they don't pay my wages even if I'm known as a "Met Controller ;D )
To be honest, I've done a few long journies in the past on tube stock and by the end I've thought "I wish I could just turn around and face the way I'm going.
So, all in all, as A-stock is the final stock we operate with such a seating layout, and as customers on longer journies will have to suffer the new seating layouts, this is probably where most of the disappointment about getting new trains comes from. I don't think, for the majority of people, it's about how the thing handles over the points at Neasden or up the Chiltern hills, or what speed they can get out of it coming down them.
The old slam door stock on my line disappeared years ago, and journey times and reliability were improved immensly. However, looking back, I liked those old trains (Class 312s for those that knew them) and would sometimes (not everyday) like to arrive at Kings Cross and see one waiting to form my train home ;D
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Post by plasmid on Oct 21, 2009 20:17:10 GMT
Hold on a minute children. I saw a picture from someone on this forum who attended the Upminster open day. It was a picture of a diagram of the interior layout of the 'S stock'. And I specifically remember seeing a different seating layout tailored to each line.
From what I can remember the Metropolitan S stock was to have the most seats, District to have the least seats and the Circle sat somewhere in-between. Can someone verify this for me. I definitely remember the picture. Someone has it...might have been the Admin Colin.
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Post by citysig on Oct 21, 2009 20:21:06 GMT
The different seating layouts were dropped / forgotten around the time there was to be S6 / S7 and S8.
I remember attending some sort of briefing that began by telling us it would be "one stock for all" and ended with "but because of the differing seating layouts, there may be some complaints if a "Circle" train is used to substitute a "Met" train, but it will be a train nonetheless. Just a bit shorter.
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Post by citysig on Oct 21, 2009 20:24:40 GMT
Could one of the Mods / Admins please either merge the ongoing numerous threads, or close a couple so that we have one dedicated thread. After a pint or two it all becomes a bit cloudy which thread I'm posting in  ;D ;D |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 21, 2009 20:30:06 GMT
We have had this debate before, the rolling stock do not make the line - it is the people that make the line. I don't quite that is right, to me it is a big picture, and as for train drivers, they spend most the day on their own in a train so what type of train it is would make quite a difference I think! I spend most of the time in my role (signals) on my own so the people don't really make the line there either. As said, it is a big picture and the trains are a big part of it. As I say I have seen this before, not just on the Northern but on the old Southern Region when the slammers went. It does change a line. I remember my heart sinking when I saw the mock - up at Euston. "Oh god this can't be happening" I thought. I didn't like anything about it so I can't see how that's going to make me happier about the line. Sorry to sound this way about the trains but it is what I think, and a fair few people agree I can tell you. Sorry but I don't agree, just for the record I have been a train driver and a signalman. As for drivers spending a lot of time in the cab, you are quite right which is why i spent over a year getting the design right. I do believe that people make the line, if you take them away there is no line and when I was a signalman I thoroughly enjoyed the banter and camaraderie with my fellow signallers and drivers. I don't agree with your comments on the Northern either, in my experience the line has always had a bit of bad feeling about it. If however the line did have a 'buzz' it came from the people not the physical infrastructure. As for your feelings on 'S' Stock, you are perfectly entitled not to like the train but ultimately it is a well thought out and well designed train that is best suited to our current and future customers needs. Carrying 3 million customers a day (occasionally 4 million) and with numbers expected to rise after the current downturn mean that 'A' Stock just wouldn't cut it (even if they weren't time expired). I also don't think a 'fair few' people agree with you either, I have done numerous roadshows and staff surgeries and the overwhelming feedback I got was positive. |
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Post by 21146 on Oct 21, 2009 20:30:32 GMT
I travelled on a 378 on the way to see the S Stock in Neasden depot. My god those 378 seats are the worst I've ever travelled on and gave me such backache I had to roll up a fleece to pad out the back.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 21, 2009 20:32:09 GMT
Btw, will each line be getting its own moquette? Not sure if this one has been answered before? Thanks for being so upbeat about the train mate, I think most staff and customers are generally positive about the upgrade. As for the moquette, there will be a single moquette for both S8 and S7's. I think this is a missed opportunity frankly but it is the current corporate philosophy. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 21, 2009 20:34:13 GMT
If getting a faster, more frequent and brand spanking new train service isn't enough for you Let's wait and see on that subject - doubtless it will be an improvement, but it is quite a while off. It's not the place to discuss it, but based on historical stock introductions, the full benefits will not transpire for 3 - 3½ years. As far as the trains per hour issue is concerned then yes, you are probably right there. Overrall however you will see countless improvements as soon as these trains are introduced. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 21, 2009 20:36:51 GMT
I would certainly not like to think that the hard work of the design team is being attacked. PRJB, Tunnel rat, Geoff and many many others have worked hard to create a train that will work on all 4 SSL. We have been treated to sneek previews and premiers and should be glad of that. The fact that the A stock is so popular is down to their design and reliability. Messers Graff-Baker and Manser did a fine job. They were taylored to meet the needs of the Amersham man who in 1950 had a bigger say than they do now. The signal upgrade is the problem, the promised capacity won't be with us for 3-5 years. Hey, I'm a big boy and accept that not everyone welcomes the changes coming and may just not like the train in general. Me and you have certainly had our debates over the years and I respect your opinions even if we do sometimes agree to disagree. Again, the signal upgrade will be an issue in the interim until we get it sorted. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 21, 2009 20:52:20 GMT
It has less seats, and if the mockup is anything to go by it has the most uncomfortable design of seat I have ever experienced. Yes it has less seats, that is what happens when you are dealing with a system which is carrying more and more people and is expected to increase further over the 40 year life span of the train. An 'A' Stock design just isn't going to cut it in 2020 or beyond. As for comfort, that is subjective, I find 'A' Stock seats to be awful as I like to stay in the seat I choose rather than be bounced accross into the seat next door. making typical journeys, like Uxbridge to Baker Street, Pinner to Liverpool Street, et cetera, all the gimmick features like air-conditioning will be insignificant due to the seating. Saying that air-con is a gimmick suggests to me that you just don't appreciate the situation for the millions of customers who are jammed into trains in rush hour every day. The system has changed and will continue to change, we don't use open air wagons to transport people around anymore and (removing my tongue from my cheek) 'A' stock isn't going to cut it going forward, the 'S' has been designed to meet the changes that are coming. , for me, the claustrophobic bendy-bus style interior of the S stock is in every respect a downgrade from A stock. Claustrophobic? Yes, because those closed in/high seat backed 'A' Stock carriages are so open plan! For me the 'S' Stock is in every way an upgrade from an 'A' stock. like the 378, I suspect the S stock seating and interior layout will quickly prove to be a problem in terms of passenger flows, lack of comfortable standing space, and space for belongings. Do me a favour! You gave got to be kidding me!! The 'S' has been specifically designed to meet the needs of todays travelling public. The seating layout has been specifically arranged to accomodate Met customers more than the city travellers on an S7 (although I would argue that travelling from Upminster is longer but hey ho!). There is plenty of standing space and customer flow through the wider doorways and through gangways will be a massive improvement. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 21:09:42 GMT
If getting a faster, more frequent and brand spanking new train service isn't enough for you, I'd like to know what you'd prefer? Your overall comments are negative, but you don't give any indication of what you'd improve? Well that’s what I am getting at, I don’t want anything to change, things are just nice at the moment. Sadly trains don’t last forever but I can still have my own thoughts on them. Hmmm......more frequent service? I certainly haven’t heard about it, in the end, Amersham will have a less frequent service as the S stock won’t fit into Chalfont bay road, as for faster, well we’ll see 1960s actually ;D I would certainly not like to think that the hard work of the design team is being attacked. PRJB, Tunnel rat, Geoff and many many others have worked hard to create a train that will work on all 4 SSL. We have been treated to sneek previews and premiers and should be glad of that. The fact that the A stock is so popular is down to their design and reliability. Messers Graff-Baker and Manser did a fine job. They were taylored to meet the needs of the Amersham man who in 1950 had a bigger say than they do now. The signal upgrade is the problem, the promised capacity won't be with us for 3-5 years. Three to five years…..and the rest!!!!  Anyway I think Metman has a very fair and well put together post there! The post says the thread is being done in a fair way, that is what feedback is all about, some will be welcome, some not so welcome. It has less seats, and if the mockup is anything to go by it has the most uncomfortable design of seat I have ever experienced. For people making typical journeys, like Uxbridge to Baker Street, Pinner to Liverpool Street, et cetera, all the gimmick features like air-conditioning will be insignificant due to the seating. And, for me, the claustrophobic bendy-bus style interior of the S stock is in every respect a downgrade from A stock. And like the 378, I suspect the S stock seating and interior layout will quickly prove to be a problem in terms of passenger flows, lack of comfortable standing space, and space for belongings. This is what I thought as well. That's what I mean about when I saw the mock-up. I do believe that people make the line, if you take them away there is no line and when I was a signalman I thoroughly enjoyed the banter and camaraderie with my fellow signallers and drivers. Where I work, I am the only person there. I only speak to people on the phone and have to be brief in case someone else needs to get through on the line! It is pretty solitary for me I don't agree with your comments on the Northern either, in my experience the line has always had a bit of bad feeling about it. If however the line did have a 'buzz' it came from the people not the physical infrastructure. I will never forget the Northern during the late 1990s, when at the age of fifteen I’d come up from my folks place in Hampshire to see the 1959/72mk1 stocks before they were replaced. Wonderful times. I consider myself so lucky to have seen those days and still miss them incredibly now  I will never be able to fully describe the atmosphere back then and I am sure I will never experience anything like it again. 1959 stock will always have a big place with me. As for bad feeling, I live at the southern end of the line and the staff are generally really good! As for your feelings on 'S' Stock, you are perfectly entitled not to like the train but ultimately it is a well thought out and well designed train that is best suited to our current and future customers needs. Carrying 3 million customers a day (occasionally 4 million) and with numbers expected to rise after the current downturn mean that 'A' Stock just wouldn't cut it (even if they weren't time expired). I also don't think a 'fair few' people agree with you either, I have done numerous roadshows and staff surgeries and the overwhelming feedback I got was positive. Thing is, I have spoken to a decent amount of people that are not looking forward to new trains. Well, be happy about the positive feedback. At the end of the day people are different, you (and the people you mention) like the idea of the new trains, and some people (like me), well, don’t. It’s just the way people are and in no way a personal thing against the developers of the new stock. I can imagine it being a very interesting and rewarding project to work on. It’s just that change on the network is something I feel very strongly about, and in a forum environment (people sharing views and ideas) I thought it’d be a good place to discuss. No hard feelings anywhere for individuals. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 21, 2009 21:56:04 GMT
The Major - I have no hard feelings at all mate, as I said you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. Some people will love 'S', some will hate it, and others won't give 'a monkies' as long as LU just keep the wages coming! I think your nostalgic view of the Northern though may be just that, nostalgic, becasue i was working there in the early 90's and the ageing 59's and awful 72ts were not pleasant for me and the general atmosphere was not ideal either.
Hopefully once we have a few trains in service people will come around. You never know, in 40 years time there may be similar forum exchanges about 'S' Stock!!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 21, 2009 22:02:55 GMT
Just as an aside to everyone - Apologies if I appear a bit confrontational in this thread, I am sure you can appreciate that last night was a long one for me and I am suffering slightly from a lack of sleep after having the kids at home all day!!  After 5 years of working on 'S' I guess I am a little bit touchy about the less positive comments, but thats the beauty of the forum I guess - we can all bring differing opinions to the table. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 22:03:23 GMT
You never know, in 40 years time there may be similar forum exchanges about 'S' Stock!! Well there probably will be, I can't ever imagine a replacement for the S stock (I know it's an incredibly long time off) as the S stock looks so 'space age' to me. Like I say I really like things the way they are and I'm scared everything is going to get ruined over the next few years. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 21, 2009 22:53:31 GMT
Replying to several posts, and I apologise in advance but I can't be bothered to quote them all individually.
I have never driven an A stock, I am just a passenger and I've never been a regular traveller on the sub-surface lines (I spent a year as a regular traveller on the Central Line though). Indeed I think the only LU stocks I've had the opportunity to view a live cab of are the D, 1996 and 1938. From this perspective, yes the seats are distinctive on an A-stock and they are comfortable (not the most comfortable train seats though, that award goes to first generation seating on HSTs), but they are old and showing their age. The word, and the London passenger, has moved on since the 1950s and 60s.
I am a big supporter of the heritage railway philosophy, but recognise that times have to move on on the real railway. Many of the modern DMUs on the national network are inferior in terms of comfort level and ambience to the stocks that they replaced and First's refurbishment of HSTs has downgraded that travelling experience as well. However not everything is bad, and when effort is applied to getting it right new stocks can be much better than the old in all ways.
I was not able to make it to the Upminster open day (I was in Shropshire that weekend) but I am aware of the differing seat layouts on the S7 and S8 from the Euston mockup, and I was impressed by the seating there - far more than I was on the 09 stock mockup. I've not had a chance to travel on an S or 09 yet, so I can't comment on them in passenger service. I've only had one trip on the 378s (West Hampstead - Richmond) and the only way in which I found them to be inferior to the 313s was the lack of visible maps in the saloon, the seats were not uncomfortable at all.
People generally don't like change. It's a well known factor of the human psyche, and so necessary change has to be well managed - and from my experience the SSL upgrades team are doing an infinitely better job than Defra managed. It is natural to be aprehensive of the unknown, but that doesn't mean change should not happen. The A stocks have been good trains for approaching 50 years, but they've had their time. The best place for them now is a gentle retirement running heritage events (an Amersham-Aldagte round trip or two every weekend would be good, but probably unrealistic). LU is in the business of moving lots of people relatively short distances as quickly and as frequently as possible. Perhaps Amersham Man would be better served by Chiltern taking over the service north of Harrow on the Hill and running a mix of long distance and outer suburban trains, leaving LU to run their metro services on the Uxbridge branch? As it stands most Met customers north of Harrow have the choice of Met or Chiltern trains and can vote with their feet if they want.
I think I've said it before, but I expect that in 40 years time prjb's protégé will be having these same discussions with people getting dewy-eyed about the S stock and deploring it's forthcoming replacement.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 21, 2009 22:55:37 GMT
I saw a picture from someone on this forum who attended the Upminster open day. It was a picture of a diagram of the interior layout of the 'S stock'. And I specifically remember seeing a different seating layout tailored to each line. From what I can remember the Metropolitan S stock was to have the most seats, District to have the least seats and the Circle sat somewhere in-between. Can someone verify this for me. I definitely remember the picture. Someone has it...might have been the Admin Colin. Nope, nothing to do with me!  But I can confirm there are out of date images within Upminster depot. I'm actually surprised prjb hasn't made it crystal clear (though to be fair, he did have a long night) - the seating layout on the S8's (Met S stock's) do feature a fair amount of 2+2 traverse seating. Whilst that may not match the A stock's 3+2, as prjb once said, the 3 seater on an A stock cannot realistically seat 3 any more as people are larger in general than they used to be. Less seats? yes. But the point most people are very happy to ignore is that LU is getting busier and seating will become a lower priority when it comes to carrying as many people as possible per train. In any case, you cannot convince me that the vast majority of people on a fully loaded S8 train will have come from Amersham, Chesham or anywhere else in Metroland - if that were the case, how the heck are people further south able to board trains and travel? Exactly - and if trains are that well loaded by the time they reach Harrow, what chance would A stocks have of coping as demand increases further? By using the argument that there aren't enough seats on S8's [because so many travel from the likes of Amersham] you are actually adding more nails to the A stock's coffin!! (sorry, I started ranting there!) All seating on the S7's will be longitudinal - no change for the Circle/H&C/District Wimbleware C stock users but a slight retrograde step for the District's D stock users. In actual fact the District's D stock users actually have better grounds for complaint than the Met's users!!  ;D ;D Could one of the Mods / Admins please either merge the ongoing numerous threads, or close a couple so that we have one dedicated thread. After a pint or two it all becomes a bit cloudy which thread I'm posting in ;D ;D Thread merging was promised by Proboards in an all singing all dancing upgrade 18 months ago. We're still waiting..... It has been noted that there are several threads on the go in different boards surrounding S stock, however each thread is ever-so-slightly unique from the other. Perhaps we should ensure that all S stock discussion occurs only in the new trains area, but then again 09ts discussion is equally a problem and can be quite at home on either the Vic board or the new trains board. Whilst most moderating decisions are fairly straight forward, as these new trains become a reality and start to appear on their respective lines, it is becoming increasingly difficult to decide which board is best suited. I suspect the forum staff could bat this around all day long and would likely fail to agree on the best way forward .... |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 21, 2009 22:59:31 GMT
Perhaps the forum staff should have made representations to senior managment regarding that issue when a single design of train was proposed for three/four different LU lines (depending how you count the circle/h&c/t-cup/)...
*removes tongue from cheek*
I can spell "circle", honest!
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Post by 21146 on Oct 21, 2009 23:28:22 GMT
District Line users do indeed object to being subjected to Circle Line seating. I normally find one or two seats vacant, with the % reduction that's over. This is outrageuos and I predict increasing and building negative comment as the trains are rolled out and people compare the existing stock and realise what's replacing them. Anyone at the north end of the Met already uses Chiltern whenever possible and comparing the A Stock with their stock shows how advanced the formerr are. Trouble is whereas the S Stock should have advanced over the Class 165/168 etc with their coffee cup holders, tables, 3-pin plug points, toilets, etc; we're just offering a glorified C Stock...
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Post by 1938 on Oct 21, 2009 23:47:54 GMT
Nobody complained when the O & P stocks were introduced, because apart from all the technical advantages they were better looking and much more comfortable than the trains they replaced.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2009 0:21:53 GMT
District Line users do indeed object to being subjected to Circle Line seating. I normally find one or two seats vacant, with the % reduction that's over. This is outrageuos and I predict increasing and building negative comment as the trains are rolled out and people compare the existing stock and realise what's replacing them Regardless of the seating, does an S7 train carry more people than a D stock train? If so it will decrease congestion in the stations, get people where they want to go faster and do it all in a much cooler travelling environment. I'd trade seating for air-con any day of the week. |
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Post by vato on Oct 22, 2009 0:44:58 GMT
Anyone at the north end of the Met already uses Chiltern whenever possible and comparing the A Stock with their stock shows how advanced the formerr are. That's a generalisation! I commute daily from up there. The Chiltern service might suit some, but it does nothing useful for me. Full before I get a chance to get on, uncomfortable seats if you get one, limited stops and a London terminus thats not where I want to go (and neither does the Bakerloo get me there either). I also prefer the A stock over Chiltern, but I'm really looking forward to the S stock. I'm sure some will disagree with me, but there's more variety of opinion than you give credit to. |
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Anyway I think Metman has a very fair and well put together post there! The post says the thread is being done in a fair way, that is what feedback is all about, some will be welcome, some not so welcome.
I will never be able to fully describe the atmosphere back then and I am sure I will never experience anything like it again. 1959 stock will always have a big place with me. As for bad feeling, I live at the southern end of the line and the staff are generally really good!
