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Post by uzairjubilee on Jul 17, 2009 13:53:03 GMT
When I was speaking to a DLR PSA yesterday, I was complaining about the JL closures and he told me that the the line from Green Park to Stratford is already capable of automatic train operation and the reason there are so many closures on the JLE is because the extension was rushed, and now LU are finding problems with the extension because of the usage of cheap components.
I never thought the reason would be that!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 18, 2009 12:48:56 GMT
You are a member here because you have an added interest in the railway, yet you are quite happy to moan about it. I really don't get all this negativity from supposed enthusiasts.
You should be very aware from stuff posted here that the DLR employee is talking out of their backside - though why you are complaining to DLR employees about an issue that has nothing to do with them I equally don't understand.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 15:00:16 GMT
Sadly the person the DLR PSA are talking out of their bottom.
TBTC is set to be tested over the next few weeks between Westminster & Stratford but certainly isn't working. There is a dual fit area at the northern end of the Jubilee Line.
The PEDs (Platform Edge Doors) are causing problems on the extension and it's intergration into TBTC. I believe that Tubelines have made some huge mistakes but I don't think it's the fault of "doing stuff on the cheap".
Although I do agree thats it's a scandal that extra possessions have been granted that have affected major music and sporting events (as well as affecting engineering works on other lines).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 6:01:27 GMT
The Jubilee line is having a new signalling system. Thus the number of closures at some section of the line is higher than you'd expect. However once this work is done you should see a more reliable, more frequent service. It's one of the pains of seeing improvements to the infrastructure. Also the question isn't limited to LU. Ask anybody who uses the West Coast Mainline the problems they've had over the past few years - but now have the hope of a better train service. Or when the extra lanes on the M25 were added. The question being - are there better ways of doing the work? You could extend engineering hours, but that would mean either later morning trains or earlier late trains. Both wouldn't fit into the 24hour London image. What about engineering blockades? Shut the line for say a month over the summer? Or perhaps look at the way the replacement bus services operate - perhaps an express service into Zone 1 rather than the train/bus/train options we have at present? 22:00 shutdown Monday to Thursday nights, like how the Victoria was done? Admittedly, as Stig said, it still wouldn't do much for London's image as a 24 hour city, but on nights where there are concerts at the O2, sporting events at Wembley or both, keep a section of line running? To give a couple of examples of what I mean by this. If there are events at both locations on the same night, keep the entire line running. If there is an event at Wembley, suspend the line between Stratford or North Greenwich and Green Park, but keep the Wembley section open. If there is an event on at the O2, than work could still be done between either London Bridge and Stanmore or Waterloo and Stanmore, though Waterloo would be better, because then you have the connection into main line services at Waterloo East. |
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Post by londonstuff on Jul 22, 2009 12:07:18 GMT
That's a really sensible suggestion, I'd imagine it would be more popular with frequent users of the line as well. I'm lucky in that I don't have to use the Jubilee often - these must be harsh times for people who depend on the line, especially at the weekends. If I'm right, those with season tickets aren't getting anything back either?
Often quoted is that they'll be able to run more trains much closer together: when this is all finally completed and the wiring is laid correctly (!) will there be enough rolling stock to be able to do this in peak periods?
Does anyone know how the overall work is now going?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 12:52:23 GMT
Think yourself lucky. Thsi weekend we have yet anoth closure of the entire JL with the added bonus of the District being shut Barking - Witechaple.
Yet anotehr example of thought for customers and their ease in getting about.
Next TFL along with Boris that passenger numbers have declined, whilst the amount of cars on the road has risen!
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Post by happybunny on Jul 22, 2009 13:21:22 GMT
There was never any shut downs like that when I was on the JL.. I should have stayed there a while longer imagine all the work those boys are getting out of every week !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 17:16:36 GMT
What the JL users are suffering is comparable with what the West Coast Mainline users have suffered over a similar time frame.
Sadly disruption is inevitable when you launch a new signaling system.
Northern Line customers will find out later what weekend disruption is like.
The JL project is running late and extra possessions were granted. The question being was that the right decision? Or simply let the project run say 6 months late.
Better planning would've helped reduce the impact on closures, including better use of bus replacement services especially at extreme times of the day or during events at 02 or Wembley.
Better staffing at stations to provide more information - improved frequencies on other lines to compensate would all have made life just that little bit easier.
The benefits to JL customers once the resignalling is finished is tangible.
Better service recovery - delayed services will resume to Good service quicker.
Quicker journey times.
More trains in service (if more trains are ordered that is)
Reduction is certain type of delays (i.e. Spads)
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Post by d7666 on Jul 22, 2009 21:27:13 GMT
Are you aware that a significant proportion of the Jubilee shutdowns north of and including Finchley Road have done and will continue to affect the the Met. because the IMRs are common.
If you plan for 22:00 shutdown 4 nights a week on the Jub, then ditto the Met.
Much of the Jub. work involves taking air off the V-frames at FIR WIG NEA and WEP - that shuts the Met.too.
Shuts the Met. Baker Street excl. to Wembley Park *incl.*
Nothing can move south of Harrow on the Hill.
That means last trains at Baker Street north are ~21:30.
In turn, last trains south by [? ] 21:00 with time to turn and get back ?
Met. main depot Neasden.
You've just shut down NEA and WEP IMRs at 22:00. That means your trains have to be *in depot* by 22:00.
Sure you can berth a hadful of trains at a couple of other locations, but nothing compare to NDT capacity. So now you have to run out the service in time to berth a large number of trains by 22:00. Every night.
Admitedly the more recent weekends workds have seen the Met. running with the Jub. shut down entirely ... partly because some of the work is aimed at eventual removal of the Jub. part from each IMR for eventual de-commission ... .... but anyway can you imagine the impact and adverse reaction ?
Even if there are now no more combined Jub. line driven Met.closures, try and calculate if all those weekends 52 h shutdowns of both that already taken place had been spread over 22:00-05:00 closures 4 nights a week . .. then see what results.
Now what do you think is better ?
Weekends or weekdays ?
They could get away with the Vic line as it is in isolation.
--
Nick
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2009 9:17:53 GMT
Also the Bakerloo & Jubilee share the "BM" IMR at Baker Street, so add the Bakerloo Line suspended Paddington to Elephant Castle as well.
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Post by johnb on Jul 23, 2009 12:56:38 GMT
...although the Jubilee experience should make the Northern upgrade rather less painful, as most of the things that could have gone wrong will have been discovered during the current troubles...
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Post by d7666 on Jul 23, 2009 14:14:15 GMT
Also the Bakerloo & Jubilee share the "BM" IMR at Baker Street, so add the Bakerloo Line suspended Paddington to Elephant Castle as well. Indeed. -- Nick |
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Post by d7666 on Aug 14, 2009 17:59:57 GMT
In the 3 weeks since I posted that, I was going to try and find out what work really has been going on where in order to demonstrate why it is impractical to do it with weekday nightly early closures. I have not found the time to do it - too busy ensuring the integrity of anther line  Anyway, am I right to assume that in the 3 weeks when no-one has come up with a counter argument as to why shutting Jubilee + Metroplitan + possibly Bakerloo each night from 22:00 is better than weekends, that we have arrived at a creditable reason for all the weekends closures ? -- Nick |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Aug 14, 2009 18:04:39 GMT
Just to upset people even more the Stratford-Waterloo shuttle planed for 22nd/23rd August is now cancelled,the entire line is now closed both days.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2009 22:38:32 GMT
I hope that the Northern Line learn from the mistakes that have been made by the Jubilee Line. As a driver, I'm obviously enjoying the time off the trains but I feel very sorry for the passengers. It can't be easy.
Yes, there is another total brown stuff down on 22/23 August (I'm a little surprised with you towerman - I would have thought you would have posted it a couple of days ago!!!)
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Aug 14, 2009 22:48:49 GMT
We only found out when we received our Traffic Circulars,not a word from the project.Doesn't help that the 6 month look ahead is 2 weeks late being updated!!!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Aug 18, 2009 18:01:13 GMT
Whole line closed 26th to 28th December.
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 18, 2009 19:02:14 GMT
Will that be to 'test' the finished system like they did with the extension to 7-car units a few years ago, or will this be continuing to get it ready? If so, the extra closures to get it finished by 2009 won't have worked!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Aug 18, 2009 19:04:41 GMT
I believe it's intended to be a "big bang"tripcock operation 24th December-TBTC 29th December.
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Post by mcmaddog on Aug 19, 2009 10:02:56 GMT
I believe it's intended to be a "big bang"tripcock operation 24th December-TBTC 29th December. Good news! - is that ATP+ATO or only ATP? |
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 19, 2009 16:46:29 GMT
Installing a new signalling system involves installing new cable - how is it possible to do that in tunnel sections with trains running? You know when I started with LT in 1977 it was a crime to interrupt the train service with routine engineering work and resignalling a line happened then with few if any closures and then only in the final stages if at all. We used to run thousands of metres of cable a night in the tunnels and heavy lead covered cable at that, not the light low smoke variety that is installed these days. A chargehand and five men would run 2000 metres in a normal night shift off a trolley straight into the bracket run that's two drum turners, one feeder on the trolley, two men pushing/braking the trolley and the chargehand and one man behind dressing. A jointer and his mate would follow us up and joint the 500 metre lengths as soon as we ran them. AC Main we'd run off a flat car pulling it from the well wagons and feeding it straight into the run, not for the faint hearted especially as the ballast loco driver would be pulling out all the stops to keep the speed low and consistent and we'd (usually 8 or 10) have to make sure there was enough slack to keep the feeders from getting their hands caught but not so much for it to loop and foul anything, communication between the supervisor (no trainmaster in those days and no radio either) the men and the driver was the key. No matter what the work it was all done as far as was possible without affecting traffic, what could be done in the daytime was done in the daytime and I can certainly recall running cable over the cable bridges at such places as Golders Green (no ladders, no guards, no walkways and trains running below) in the daytime in the few weeks leading to the resignalling changeover between Chalk Farm and Golders Green. Of course most work was done at night and I recall working at Baker Street on stage 1 Jubilee line, the place was absolutely awash with people of many disciplines all working alongside one another, plasterers, tilers, fitters, electricians, P-Way, signals, craftsmen etc. These days this kind of integration seems to be seen as a modern marvel,but nothing could be further from the truth, not only were we doing it in the 1970s but I bet in their day they were doing it in the 1870s too. What is different nowadays is that so much has been outlawed as the H&S empire builders find new ways to maintain and expand their existence. Not being a foreign traveller myself I can only repeat what those I know do travel on the continent tell me and that is that the often quoted 'EU H&S rules' are only applied in such draconian measure in the UK and nowhere else in Europe. These days I don't believe that anybody in authority really cares how disrupted the travelling public are, if they did then perhaps work would proceed without endless closures. It is certainly not impossible but it does require strict and efficient marshalling and usage of resources and labour which is something the engineers of today don't seem to be quite as good at as their forefathers were with far less at their disposal! |
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Post by littlecog on Aug 22, 2009 12:43:54 GMT
These days this kind of integration seems to be seen as a modern marvel,but nothing could be further from the truth, not only were we doing it in the 1970s but I bet in their day they were doing it in the 1870s too. A thought: it is easier to run a tight ship when everyone on it speaks the same language equally well. I work with South Africans and Romanians, and the odd Pole, at the sharp end of wetbed repairs, or drainage jobs. Yet visas for the saffas have become much harder to get, and getting into technical college is now harder than university - so are we now going to see a resurgence of the social economic structures you lived through thirty years ago? Closed shops notwithstanding, this is something I'd like to see. Not least because pushing several fully loaded track trolleys up the slope from half way between Baker St and Lords because Baker St was too full of other contractors was not something I enjoyed...! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 17:14:42 GMT
[/quote]
Good news! - is that ATP+ATO or only ATP?[/quote]
I would assume ATP only.
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 23, 2009 2:33:25 GMT
These days this kind of integration seems to be seen as a modern marvel,but nothing could be further from the truth, not only were we doing it in the 1970s but I bet in their day they were doing it in the 1870s too. A thought: it is easier to run a tight ship when everyone on it speaks the same language equally well. I work with South Africans and Romanians, and the odd Pole, at the sharp end of wetbed repairs, or drainage jobs. Yet visas for the saffas have become much harder to get, and getting into technical college is now harder than university - so are we now going to see a resurgence of the social economic structures you lived through thirty years ago? Closed shops notwithstanding, this is something I'd like to see. Not least because pushing several fully loaded track trolleys up the slope from half way between Baker St and Lords because Baker St was too full of other contractors was not something I enjoyed...! I'm not sure what you are getting at, in the 1970s I was working with many nationalities from four continents, LT was as cosmopolitan then as LU is today though the balance of nationalities has altered over time although they still come from the same parts of the world. Despite the apparent increase in those passing out of university with degrees I am of the belief that education nowadays is of a much lower standard in real terms than it was 30 years ago and that engineers are not quite as clever as they might be. In general terms the work is much easier nowadays than it was years ago but people are perhaps not quite as willing to work even though working conditions and H&S are much better these days. Even pushing trolleys is much easier than it used to be as long as your brakes are in good order, we never had any! 30 years ago LT was an integrated family of families where one had to earn one's place during probation or be dismissed, I don't think that is true in the world of devolved engineering in quite the same way as that family has been somewhat diluted by a multitude of contractors and subcontractors who simply don't all sing from the same hymm sheet. |
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Post by mcmaddog on Aug 25, 2009 9:18:35 GMT
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 25, 2009 9:33:43 GMT
The Crimbo closure has been around for a while, so I would say that its an additional closure. Anyone who works on the Jubilee will know this upgrade is running late, so its not much of a surprise to us....engineers tell us the same thing as well.
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Post by mcmaddog on Aug 25, 2009 11:20:04 GMT
I see ... TBH I'm surprised there were 5 days at weekends left free before the end of the year based on how many shutdowns it's been recently. If they really do go into 2010 then I for one will be mad. We were sold the line about needing the extra work in order to be finished on time and yet they still failed.
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Post by d7666 on Aug 25, 2009 13:45:56 GMT
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Post by Tomcakes on Aug 25, 2009 13:54:05 GMT
So what's actually going to happen? Will the two sides start bickering through the press - or will they follow the CEC and Bilfinger and take it to court? Or will they actually agree a way to get the work done on time with the minimum disruption?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2009 15:54:51 GMT
So what's actually going to happen? Will the two sides start bickering through the press - or will they follow the CEC and Bilfinger and take it to court? Or will they actually agree a way to get the work done on time with the minimum disruption? I think TfL wants Tube Lines to fail and then use that as an argument (a pretty good one actually) for complete nationalisation of LUL. |
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