Class 378s

You don't need TfL ownership to get a new fleet of trains, the new franchise could have specified that for any operator. The trains are just one coach longer, and the overcrowding issue has been addressed by not fitting many seats. it did not need TfL control to do that either. Shepherd's Bush was started (and signed) while under Silverlink control. Frequencies look set not to be improved by much, and I see little evidence that anything is to be done to improve line speeds, which make journey times uncompetitive or equivalent to going into London and out again. Electrification of the Goblin line has been mooted but doesn't look likely. ELLX would have happened whether TfL was running this outfit or not. The only real improvements (which are important ones) which can be squarely laid at the door of TfL are better staffing and full Oyster card compatibility. Scarcely the most exciting railway developments in the world.

On another board, a commentator noted that they travelled on the NLL for 45 minutes every day. Thats a long time standing, or fighting to get a bench seat. Elsewhere, to see just how little TfL cares about passenger comfort, try sitting on one of their low floor buses for any length of time, its harder to imagine a less padded seat. The lack of airflow through these same buses coupled with large windows turns them into excruciating greenhouses in the summer. The lack of comfort on 92 stock has been noted. Every day, over 6000 people travel into London from the extremes of the Central Line. Again, a long time to be crouched into one of the worst-pitched seats I have ever known.

If any of the moderators object to my TfL jibe, I am sure they will be in touch, its just been complaints from amateur moderators so far.

I have no problem with London Overground essentially. The *one* great thing that I do not support is longitudinal seating on the 378s.

It seems to be that people assume that the 378s will only be used for short 10mins hop-on and hop-off services.

This may be the case on something like the Watford DC lines where if you were going any great distance, you'd get a London Midland train to Watford Junction, Bushey or Harrow and work your way back / forward.

However, on mainly the North London Line, it is worth noting that Richmond - Stratford is a longer and far more complex journey if going via NXEA to Liv St, then tube to Waterloo then SWT to Richmond. So in effect, it's quite likely that people actually regularly do the entire length of the line.

Someone who lives in Willesden Junction on their way home from work in Stratford, for example, is not going to want to go in to central London terminals during the peak, but will probably sit on the NLL quite happily as it takes just 45mins.

I'm pretty sure as I have said before... 313s cope ok-ish at the moment. I don't see how increasing the number of people standing is any positive development? Surely if there's more people standing, then there's more crowding and more of a hold up at stations where people have to navigate their way through the crowds (who will still naturally bunch up near the doors) to get off.

I'd say they nee dto be even longer than that. TFL nee dto get with the times.

Having said that, the new EMUs will have far superior acceleration to the 313s and combined with the wider doors theoretically resulting in shorter dwel times, services should speed up.

I thought that one of the other stations couldn't have its platforms lengthened? I think it was Rotherhithe or Wapping.

I cannot believe I just read that. Even a schoolchild should be able to know the following answers to the above comment

Wider doorways will let more people on and off of the train at once, but it will still have the same capacity.
Longer carriages will not go round the sharper curves as the distance between the bogies will be too long and the centre of the carriage may hit something.
The trains will be longer. They are all going to be extended to 4 carriages when the stations have been lengthened
You just cannot go and build wider trains. There is a thing called gauging. To put it into plain English, the train needs to go through tunnels, cuttings and under bridges.
The signalling is being upgraded so a more frequent service can be run.

A railway magazine has quoted the 21st July as a day to enter service. Mind you, that might just be a typo.

Well, I'll be out and about on Monday, if I actually get up in time or actually remember, I'll head off to Willesden and have a nose about.

The 313s simply do not cope at the moment.

Fighting through the people standing in the inadequate space currently on the 313s is no joke.

More standing room may mean more people standing and a net result of the crowd being just as thick to fight through... but more people will be carried, and fewer people will have to let a train pass and wait for the next one because it's too rammed to get on. So even that scenario would be a net win. But more likely the crush will be eased without the obstacle course of impractical seating, so there will be improvements on all fronts.

People taking a 45 minute journey will almost certainly be able to nab a seat for at least part of it, given the high churn of other passengers getting on and off around them - I expect it will be an unusual 45-minute journey when this is not the case.

Longer and more frequent trains would of course be the ideal solution. And we're getting longer trains. I would however object to having to pay for massive train extensions to, say, six coaches, through either taxes or fairs, when more cost-effective solutions such as more practical - albeit perhaps compromised - seating had been rejected. The 378s undoubtedly strike the correct balance by utilising a mix of solutions.

If they can be criticised for anything it's probably the low number of doors, which won't alter the numbers carried much but could hinder boarding times slightly. But even so, they're hardly likely to be the Overground's 83ts... I look forward to travelling on them.

NLL journeys: they're short. Seriously. I commuted on the NLL from Highbury to Frognal for six months; half the people on the train got out at Highbury (and were immediately replaced by new joiners); half the people on that train got out at Camden (and were about 50% replaced by new joiners); and the train got progressively less rammed as it went west. Anyone coming from Stratford would have a seat by Camden, even with longitudinal seats.

(and if I lived in Willesden and worked in Stratford, I'd get the Jubilee and the Bakerloo.)

Canada Water: have you been there? Extending the platforms now would be a tens-of-millions-of-pounds piece of civils. Whoever decided to build it short when they made the JLE should probably be shot.

As routemasterkeith says it will not be happening this coming Monday. I think that between routemasterkeith, Dazz285 and myself, we should be able to relay the date when it happens. I am not going to speculate or guess though as I have already given a couple of people a date to see it pulled. The only problem is now that they have had the press launch I do hope it is soon or the public and press will start wondering why these trains are not appearing

The problem is that nearly all LO stations would need platforms lengthened to take 6 car class 378 trains. People may think that 6 car trains have run on many of the lines before, especially on the DC lines, but the class 501 coaches, for example, were only ~17m (57 feet) long and a 6 car 501 would be approximately the same length as a 5 car class 378.
A six car 378 will even be about 8m longer than a rake of Bakerloo line 1972 Mk II and 12m longer than a 6 car District line D stock rake.

Even ignoring the problems at Canada Water on the East London Line, there will be several other spots where platform extension will be expensive, Willesden Junction High Level is one, I don't know what the current planned solution for the 4 car platforms is here, but adding another 40m on top of that would certainly be expensive. Camden Road would also be interesting, with the restrictions at either end of the site. Many of the stations are either in cuttings or on embankments, making extensions expensive. Regulations mean that the whole of the train would have to be platformed, including the rear cab door, if the stations are being rebuilt.

378005 & 378007 & 378015 have finished testing and are ready to go.
378013 is nearly complete mileage wise & should be running on the D.C. tonight to gain D.C. mileage then 1 or 2 days on the mainline to complete it's 2000 miles fault free.
378016 finally went on it's first run on Thursday night and all went well but test was cancelled last night (Friday) due to severe power problems on the D.C. so it was all hands on the pumps to help stranded drivers and trains.
Hope this helps...

I fully agree. The LO lines are not tube train journeys. I often use them for quite long journeys, in fact, and don't relish the prospect of travelling sideways and not being able to sit by the window and watch the scenery (which is admitedly often dull - but not as dull as looking at adverts and strangers' faces) go by.

I feel the same way about the forthcoming metropolitan line stock as well and worry about the increasing trend towards this type of seating that seems to take little account of the enjoyment to be had from an overland train journey in comparison to a short hop on the tube.

Going at this rate, how long before we see longitudinal-only seating on long-distance mainline services?

Edit to add: for the record, I do think the 313s are outdated now and in need of replcacement. I just don't think these 378's - as presently configured - are the right type of replacements.