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Post by class411 on Aug 13, 2018 11:49:35 GMT
It seems fairly clear from the above that there is no 'official' meaning attached to the word halt - certainly not now.
Perhaps different companies had different definitions in the past, but stations have changed in the interim so it's virtually impossible to back-form the logic involved.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 8, 2018 8:11:38 GMT
A system whereby a passenger can be dragged down the platform without the driver being aware what is happening is not fail-safe. A system where there is only one staff member on a train is not fail-safe. A system where trains can stop at platforms in such a way that there is sufficient gap for passengers to fall down is not fail-safe. And NONE of these scenarios belongs on a railway. The third one may be a result of physical limitations The first and second are deliberate choices. The point I was making was that TPTB (the powers that be) clearly do think these things 'belong' on a railway - at least in the sense that they allow them to continue to exist on a railway. The very simple - and easily retro-fittable - system I suggested was rejected by one member on the basis of a scenario that has not, as far as I'm aware, ever happened on any railway anywhere in the world. Given that, as I showed, more dangerous systems, that demonstrably have caused problems, are allowed, it seems unreasonable to reject an idea on the basis of a situation so unlikely that it has never happened.
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Post by class411 on Aug 6, 2018 21:50:44 GMT
Unless an impact or other damage has disabled the radio system. Or a fire in a tunnel has disabled the radio system. Anything which is not fail-safe doesn't belong on a railway Nonsense. A system whereby a passenger can be dragged down the platform without the driver being aware what is happening is not fail-safe. A system where there is only one staff member on a train is not fail-safe. A system where trains can stop at platforms in such a way that there is sufficient gap for passengers to fall down is not fail-safe. In reality we are only concerned with fire (or smoke) related issues, as there are ones where there is the potential for a time critical escape necessity, and the probability of BOTH a fire occurring AND the driver becoming incapacitated are negligible. In any of these problems there has to be an intelligent assessment of the probability of each particular scenario occurring. In the entire history of subterranean train travel, has there ever been a situation where there has been a fire on a train in a tunnel and the driver is unavailable?
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Post by class411 on Aug 6, 2018 19:05:19 GMT
My rather frivolous 'guard' post had its genesis in something that occurred to me whilst reading this thread. It seems to be considered vital that passengers can access the cabs in case of emergency. However, I can't think of any circumstance in which it would be helpful to access the driving cab without the driver's acquiescence. If the driver became incapable, surely LU would need to send a rescue train to deal with the situation. Otherwise, in any form of emergency that meant the passengers needed to be de-trained through the cab, the driver would be supervising. So, why would passengers need to access the driving cab without the driver being able to unlock the door? Trailing cabs could be unlocked so that, if a fire occurred in the middle of the train, and for some reason it could not move, the driver could announce when it was safe to de-train from the rear (although this sound a little unlikely, there must be some plan for dealing with a serious fire in the middle of a stuck train.) That makes the solution very easy. Simply provide the driver with a proper lock that only s/he, or an emergency rescue crew, can undo should the need arise. in case of driver illness, or if the line controller is unable to get a response from a driver following an opo alarm they may make a pa on the train to try and get assistance to the driver, so there needs to be a means of entry. Well, if they can make an announcement, they can arrange for a remote override on the door lock via a coded, modulated, signal. That's not a difficult thing to do because it can be 'piggy-backed' onto an existing system and does not require integrating into any of the trains systems (except for a power supply).
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Post by class411 on Aug 6, 2018 13:22:49 GMT
My rather frivolous 'guard' post had its genesis in something that occurred to me whilst reading this thread.
It seems to be considered vital that passengers can access the cabs in case of emergency.
However, I can't think of any circumstance in which it would be helpful to access the driving cab without the driver's acquiescence.
If the driver became incapable, surely LU would need to send a rescue train to deal with the situation. Otherwise, in any form of emergency that meant the passengers needed to be de-trained through the cab, the driver would be supervising.
So, why would passengers need to access the driving cab without the driver being able to unlock the door?
Trailing cabs could be unlocked so that, if a fire occurred in the middle of the train, and for some reason it could not move, the driver could announce when it was safe to de-train from the rear (although this sound a little unlikely, there must be some plan for dealing with a serious fire in the middle of a stuck train.)
That makes the solution very easy. Simply provide the driver with a proper lock that only s/he, or an emergency rescue crew, can undo should the need arise.
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Post by class411 on Aug 5, 2018 18:01:41 GMT
What they need is a member of staff to be stationed in, say, the fourth carriage, who would have a key that would enable her to get into the drivers cab if the need arose to de-train the passengers. Since they would have a better view from the mid point, this member of staff could also take on the responsibilities of checking that the doors were clear, closing them, and signalling the driver when it was safe to start. If the had a separately operable door, they could then also check no one was being dragged down the platform.
It would big a big improvement to passenger, and possible staff, safety.
You could call this person, oh, I don't know, perhaps the train 'sentry', or, maybe, 'guard'
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Post by class411 on Jul 26, 2018 7:38:27 GMT
Started working again this morning.
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Post by class411 on Jul 26, 2018 7:30:28 GMT
I abhor the use of the term "customer" in the LT rule book, they are passengers. Look in any of the various railway laws and bye-laws, there is rarely a reference to "customers". After all, we have passenger trains and we have goods trains.; we have empty stock trains. I've never seen a customer train! FFS stop this gobbledegook. Well said. I notice that it's one of those words, like 'firefighter', and 'conductor', that, although used meticulously by the relevant organisations and the media, is generally ignored by the public who still refer to 'passengers', 'firemen', and 'guards'.
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Post by class411 on Jul 25, 2018 16:24:21 GMT
Thank.
It looks as if I will have to phone tfl.
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Post by class411 on Jul 25, 2018 11:19:23 GMT
Just bumping this to ask if anyone has successfully managed to check their journey history in the last couple of days.
I can log in, and view my personal information, but I'm continuing to get the errors listed in the OP.
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Post by class411 on Jul 25, 2018 9:59:06 GMT
What does a 'shunt move' actually mean? I had made an inference, but as it appears that it's something opposed to a 'coloured light move', I suspect my inference (that it was a movement that involved using track not used for passenger movements) was incorrect.
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Post by class411 on Jul 24, 2018 7:47:05 GMT
Having the incorrect next departure platform showing at Hammersmith HC&C used to be quite common, but I haven't noticed it as much lately. It's also been quite a while since I encountered a 'we've changed our minds and the next train will leave from another platform' announcement.
There was a time a few years back when they seemed to have a major aversion to using platform 1 - months went by wehen I never arrived at or departed from there and it was virtually always empty. So we would sometimes be held outside, and when we eventually arrived it would be at 2 or 3 and 1 would be empty.
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Post by class411 on Jul 23, 2018 16:26:24 GMT
I'm trying to access my Oyster account and the site seems to be broken. (Symptoms: "Summary Unavailable" where list of cards should be, "Unexpected Error" when trying to search for card number.)
Does anyone know how long this has been the case?
Last week, when exiting a station, the gate tried to close as I was half way through it. It wasn't strong enough to overcome my inertia, and I couldn't see any way of checking/rectifying any error, so I need to check what happened (was I just too slow, or did my card not register?)
I've always disliked using gates immediately after other people because I have feared exactly this situation (or, worse, that I'd get through a gate opened for someone else without realising that the ticket hadn't been read.) This is the first time it's happened (As far as I'm aware.)
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Post by class411 on Jul 23, 2018 10:03:25 GMT
It’s all getting a bit silly now. If passengers hear the warning too often, they won’t take heed when there really is a gap worth minding. 'Mind the Wolf'. I may have mentioned this before, but some years ago I 'complained' to LU that there was always a 'temporary' sign at Shepherd's Bush H&C (as was), saying to beware of the slippery floor, and pointing out that if, after it rained, someone fell on the floor because it was slippery, they would have no defence that they had warned people, because the warning would be considered void. I've no idea if it was my mentioning it, but the sign had been there for several years, and disappeared soon after. In fact, the floor at this station isn't particularly slippery, even when it is wet.
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Post by class411 on Jul 23, 2018 7:06:44 GMT
This is very optimistic... All it's going to be is another announcement that will be entirely ignored - further contributing to the noise pollution. This is very much the case. The incessant gabbling that now emanates from the train's PA system means that it is largely ignored by most of the people, most of the time. Probably the worst and most useless piece of 'noise' is the entirely superfluous 'this train is being held at a red signal', every time the train stops other than at a station. What do they think passengers are imagining? That it has stopped to nibble some particularly tasty mushrooms it's espied alongside the track? Whet we want to know, if it stops for any length of time, is why it's being held and how long it's going to be before it gets moving again. It's extraordinarily rare to be told that.
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Post by class411 on Jul 13, 2018 18:19:41 GMT
It's a very poor April fool. A good April fool should be taking something that's actually impossible/vanishingly unlikely, and making it seem real. Unless you are an 'underground nerd' you'll have no idea whether or not reopening any particular station is feasible and it may well be a superficially very desirable idea. A good April fool gets more and more outrageous until only the slowest fail to get it. Whereas this just waffles on in a vaguely believable way and at the very end say's it's a lie.
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Post by class411 on Jul 12, 2018 11:52:51 GMT
Which gives us the interesting result that, as it cannot be a branch of the H&C line, as that is topologically a straight line, it can only be a branch of a circle! The circle and the Hammersmith and city line have the same topological properties. [Possible thread split needed] No they are not. The H&C line is topologically a straight line. To be topologically equivalent, the points on a line must retain the same order. If you make the circle line a straight line the Paddington (D&C) to Edgware Road order is broken.
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Post by class411 on Jul 12, 2018 10:33:48 GMT
....... what is meant by 'the Hammersmith branch'. I have always understood references to "the Hammersmith branch" to mean Paddington to Hammersmith - as it is the only section of route that fits the general rule that branch lines are usually named after their terminus - we don't talk about the Golders Green branch, or the Hillingdon branch, or the Kew Gardens branch - but whatever happened to the "St Johns Wood branch" Which gives us the interesting result that, as it cannot be a branch of the H&C line, as that is topologically a straight line, it can only be a branch of a circle!
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Post by class411 on Jul 12, 2018 7:44:04 GMT
No 'E' in Edgware? (I might as well join in the fun!) Now, I actually thought about that, carefully, as I wrote it. There is no 'e' in 'Edgware', just one on each end. And I had to go back and edit the above line to remove the superfluous 'e' that I'd typed between the 'g' and the 'w'. doh! ETA (edited to add) Sorry, was typing this when the above post was sent so didn't see it until too late. [/OPFFTOPIC]
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Post by class411 on Jul 12, 2018 7:17:38 GMT
There is no train service from Hammersmith to Edgeware, and Edgeware Road is east of Hammersmith. I believe the poster was referring to your mis-spelling of Edgware. Really? I always thought that pointing out misspellings and grammatical errors was frowned upon. Not that I mind. I prefer if someone lets me know when I get something wrong. In lord knows how many years of seeing the name it never registered that there was no 'e' in it.
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Post by class411 on Jul 12, 2018 7:00:41 GMT
Sorry, I'm not trying to be pedantic here - I just looked at this thread for the first time today, and can't understand what is meant by 'the Hammersmith branch'. (Probably because I didn't read the thread from which this was split.) I cannot identify any piece of railway that would qualify as 'Hammersmith branch'. Unless you mean all the District line going west from Earl's Court that does not go to Wimbledon. Or possibly the HC&C line from Edgeware Road. But I used most of the services from Hammersmith and apart from some 5 min waits at Edgeware Road itself I can't think of anywhere that trains could be losing over an hour. The services just aren't that unreliable. It may just be the heat making me extra dense. ETA: I'm assuming the Piccadilly line does not count as a branch as there's no other line west through Hammersmith. Edgeware?There is no train service from Hammersmith to Edgeware, and Edgeware Road is east of Hammersmith.
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Post by class411 on Jul 11, 2018 21:13:35 GMT
This is happening quite a lot lately. Could we ask that members re-read the repeated guidance in this thread. Thank you for your co-operation. Admin commentETA? I assume you mean "Edit to Add" rather than Estimated Time of Arrival? Woops! Sorry, I thought that one was common knowledge. Always a dangerous assumption. ETA (Edited To Add): I'm assuming (I never learn) that the above emoticon means 'doh!'.
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Post by class411 on Jul 11, 2018 21:11:59 GMT
Sorry, I'm not trying to be pedantic here - I just looked at this thread for the first time today, and can't understand what is meant by 'the Hammersmith branch'. (Probably because I didn't read the thread from which this was split.) I cannot identify any piece of railway that would qualify as 'Hammersmith branch'. Unless you mean all the District line going west from Earl's Court that does not go to Wimbledon. Or possibly the HC&C line from Edgeware Road. But I used most of the services from Hammersmith and apart from some 5 min waits at Edgeware Road itself I can't think of anywhere that trains could be losing over an hour. The services just aren't that unreliable. It may just be the heat making me extra dense. ETA: I'm assuming the Piccadilly line does not count as a branch as there's no other line west through Hammersmith. MoreToJack was indeed talking about the Circle and Hammersmith & City lines from Edgware Road to Hammersmith. The post was about the service on Saturday 23rd June, which was completely, shall we say, messed up. This was during trial running of the new CBTC signalling on that part of the line (specifically Latimer Road to Hammersmith). Trains on the branch were not in revenue service at that time, though they entered revenue service once off the branch and were very much all out of sorts. The attempt to switch to CBTC failed, the branch is currently back in the hands of real signals rather than the miracle automagical stuff that will take over. Thanks, tut. Interestingly I was affected by the outage of the HC&C that weekend and was well pi^h^h vexed with tfl* as at exactly the same time as they nulled the SBM (Shepherd's Bush Market) to Hammersmith (amongst other) part of the line, they licensed a crane to operate in Shepherd's bush road and so that was closed, and the alternative 283 SBM to Hammersmith route was disrupted. And all for nowt, it appears. [OT] * Apart from the above, why is it that they can send me a weekly: "There's going to be a strike/Oh no there isn't/Oh yes there is/BEHIND YOU" email, but never send emails giving advanced notice of partial line closures? [/OT]
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Post by class411 on Jul 11, 2018 18:15:45 GMT
Nah. They'd have canned it first thing this morning if they wanted to avoid negativity. 90 minute late start up and known issues with VOBC tags. It's no surprise that trains are losing over an hour on the Hammersmith branch. Sorry, I'm not trying to be pedantic here - I just looked at this thread for the first time today, and can't understand what is meant by 'the Hammersmith branch'. (Probably because I didn't read the thread from which this was split.) I cannot identify any piece of railway that would qualify as 'Hammersmith branch'. Unless you mean all the District line going west from Earl's Court that does not go to Wimbledon. Or possibly the HC&C line from Edgeware Road. But I used most of the services from Hammersmith and apart from some 5 min waits at Edgeware Road itself I can't think of anywhere that trains could be losing over an hour. The services just aren't that unreliable. It may just be the heat making me extra dense. ETA: I'm assuming the Piccadilly line does not count as a branch as there's no other line west through Hammersmith.
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Post by class411 on Jul 11, 2018 7:57:07 GMT
So it looks like 1984 was the last time there was a rear end collision, a year when there were two such incidents. An impressive record considering the number of trains that run on a daily basis. This was what led me to start the thread. Not only are a vast number of trains run, but the number of individual movements (in the sense of stationary to stationary), the density of the stock on the rails, and the complexity of the track usage, make it a pretty amazing record.
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Post by class411 on Jul 10, 2018 7:40:59 GMT
If a train SPADs in ATO, does it count as a black mark against the operator in the same way as it would on a manual driven train? An interesting question. Presumably not for incidents where the rain only moves a short distance past the signal. But if a train is clearly not going to stop before a red, such as in the video to which rincew1nd linked, is the operator expected to prevent, or mitigate the effects of, the impending SPAD? And in the most egregious cases would they be censured for failing to do so? Which leads to another question: Do operators on the Victoria line get any opportunity to practice manual driving, so that they can maintain a feel for the braking profile of the trains they supervise - or are they able to maintain that simply by continually experiencing braking in day to day operations?
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Post by class411 on Jul 9, 2018 17:13:21 GMT
We all know that LU has in incredible safety record, but I cannot actually ever remember hearing of an LU train hitting another.
When was the last time it happened?
I'm thinking of instances other then a sidewswipe caused by a derailment, and on passenger carrying track, as opposed to depot's and suchlike.
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Post by class411 on Jul 8, 2018 15:44:16 GMT
What exactly is meant by 'stalled' in this instance? An electric motor stalls if there is too much resistance for its available torque and hence it stops rotating. It's extremely unlikely that all the motors on a S-Stock did that (unless someone welded one of the wheels to the track!) Or is 'stalled' used in railway terminology for any instance of a motor failing to turn - no power/faulty controls/faulty driver (motor, not train) electronics. Oh yes, of course, he said the train stalled, not the motors. So is there really that big a gap - big enough to isolate a seven carriage train - at that location? Or can a train get gapped when some of the shoes are still in contact with a conductor rail.
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Post by class411 on Jul 8, 2018 15:02:51 GMT
What exactly is meant by 'stalled' in this instance?
An electric motor stalls if there is too much resistance for its available torque and hence it stops rotating.
It's extremely unlikely that all the motors on a S-Stock did that (unless someone welded one of the wheels to the track!)
Or is 'stalled' used in railway terminology for any instance of a motor failing to turn - no power/faulty controls/faulty driver (motor, not train) electronics.
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Post by class411 on Jul 8, 2018 14:57:08 GMT
It was continuous. It really did sound as if it had been made by an absolutely enormous 'whoopie cushion'.
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