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Post by class411 on Jul 7, 2018 7:05:17 GMT
Cooling on the Central Line for use in the open sections would be appropriate, even if it had to be switched off in deep tunnels. Use in the open sections would cool the cars sufficiently to give a head start in the tunnel sections. Also, where shafts exist, they should be kitted out with proper cooling equipment. Think I read somewhere that was intended between Liv St and Stratford in the 1946 extension, and between Leytonstone and Newbury Pk, but never fully done? Can anyone confirm? Also, could the 92s not be retro fitted with air scoops over/through the cabs? I am not going to quote road names but there is a shaft entrance a few minutes walking time from where I live and I often pass it on my way to the station. I think there might be a substation at the same location. Earlier in this thread it was said that some sort of film had been applied to the 1992 ts windows. This explains something for me... I thought that something like this had been done because I had noticed that it looks darker when looking inside the trains from the station platforms than I remembered when the trains were new.
Simon
I asked about the dark windows on the Central line a while back, and was directed here: previous Central Line tinted windows thread.
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Post by class411 on Jul 7, 2018 6:56:08 GMT
I mis-read your explanation! Perhaps the OP could clarify of the video I found was similar to what they experienced? That's exactly it - although the sound in the carriage was different in tone because of its different acoustics. And, of course, in this instance the train stopped roughly where it was supposed to. Thanks a lot for the video.
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Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2018 17:22:37 GMT
This question relates to an incident from around 42 years ago.
I was on a Victoria Line train from Victoria to Warren Street, and as it arrived at Green Park, there was a sound that I can only describes as a giant massively farting, and the train came to a very abrupt halt. Passengers were thrown forward with considerable force. Once the train stopped I got up and looked out of the doors, and most of the first carriage was in the tunnel.
Is it possible for the VL to SPAD. If not, what could have caused the above event?
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Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2018 17:13:47 GMT
Thanks for that, PicNT.
It just shows how unreliable your (or rather my) memory can be.
I had muddled up the trainee with the 2 yr driver. So all my comments about poor training letting a new driver think using anything other than a signal as a clear to start are null and void.
I see what you mean about the unprofessional attitude, but I think that was almost certainly to do with being completely gutted about her error. It came across as if she didn't think it was too much of a problem, but, in reality, I suspect that was more her trying to convince herself that she wasn't as much of an idiot as she no doubt felt.
I noted the supervisor saying that some drivers had seen that video 'half a dozen times'.
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Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2018 16:39:05 GMT
I'm a little confused by all this can it/can't it speculation. I was under the impression that they had said that future tube stock would be A/C. Is this another error (like the S-Stock introduction timetable) I've picked up from lazy and inaccurate reports in the press? ETA: Or lazy and inaccurate reading on my part.
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Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2018 16:33:41 GMT
Obviously for a non driver/signaller it's hard to understand exactly what you are saying here, but, in layman's terms, would a reasonable interpretation be that the signalling is somehow inviting drivers to believe something that is not necessarily correct, even if the actually signalling arrangements are not actually 'wrong'. Some years back there was a good series on the underground that went into driver training, and a driver spadded on her first day (IIRC) alone because she treated one of those white diagonal lines that, I assume, indicate to the driver what route is set, as a (in road terms) filter signal. I felt desperately sorry for her, not only having a Spad so early, but having it televised. I also wonder about the quality of training that allowed drivers to qualify without having the fact that such a signal is NOT a filter thoroughly drilled into them. Was that the episode on women drivers? I remember that one and I believe it was Earl's Court and she heard the points throw and off she went. The points throwing of course is no confirmation that the associated signal has cleared as she found out. I also remember that her attitude was perhaps a little less than professional! As a driver you are more likely to remember exactly what happened than I am, but I'm surprised if it was the points sound that caused her to start. Starting because what you believe is a signal clears you is at least vaguely reasonable - even if it implies an appalling standard of training/testing, but starting because you hear the points change is downright weird. Maybe for an old hand who has encountered the situation (points and in immediate green) hundreds of times and has made in unconscious, incorrect, association it would be believable, but for an inexperienced driver it beggars belief that she would have responded to anything other than a signal. Unless, of course, one of her trainers had told her she could! I'm not sure what you mean by her unprofessional attitude, but, again, you would be far better placed to gauge that than I would. All I remember is that she was pretty upset - even though she tried to hide the fact. I presume causing a SPAD is psychologically similar to a minor car crash. Thanks for that detailed explanation. It not only explains what you were talking about but provides an interesting insight into the more esoteric functions of train driving.
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Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2018 9:49:44 GMT
Are you sure this is to do with A655, as opposed to A651 itself? I’d be rather worried if people were waiting for the repeater to clear and then being lulled into a sense of security that the train ahead has advanced far enough that A655 is likely to be clear - if so there’s if anything more chance of someone making the mistake of anticipating it clearing. In the case of Leicester Square this will be severely messing up the headway, as waiting for everything to clear before closing the doors means the following train will now be being held too long at the outer home (ironically making him more likely to have a SPAD if we take the view that a red signal is there to be hit!). Surely by the time the doors have closed everything should have gone green unless the preceding train has been pulled down. There used to be some rather messy signals in the Charing Cross / Embankment area, but I don’t remember them being a major problem - although the 95 stock does have the benefit of in-cab monitors, assuming you hadn’t left under assisted dispatch of course. Without wishing to sound flippant one effective SPAD avoidance measure would be to not let any train leave a depot in the morning, then no one would have to worry about SPADs at all! (To be fair, I do realise this is a complex subject, and in particular most of these signals will have been installed before today’s SPAD policy came in, which is the elephant in the room. It’s a rather depressing far cry from the days when signalling notices actively instructed drivers to derive maximum benefit from the signalling provided... I used to love the speed controlled signalling at Oval and Waterloo, and it was always extremely satisfying to manage to trigger it correctly, although it was very hard to do as using it as designed relied upon anticipating signals clearing which unfortunately became something we couldn’t do, so quite a bit of skill and nerve was required.) A655 is most definitely the problem due to the amount of SPaD's. Several initiatives such as a notice when you enter the tunnel that A655 is ahead, a "braking monument" board located a braking distance to the rear of the signal, two repeaters plus the instruction not to depart Barons Court until the repeater ahead has cleared. Still it gets hit on a regular basis. However, over the past month since another software update was dropped in, we are now being routinely regulated at Hammersmith EB so by the time we get to Barons Court, the train ahead has usually cleared the section ahead. Your observation about outer home signals is pretty much spot on. Around 50% of all of the SPaD's on the Picc are at outer home signals. There are various reasons why this occurs. Perhaps concentration and route knowledge are a couple quite high on the list. Obviously for a non driver/signaller it's hard to understand exactly what you are saying here, but, in layman's terms, would a reasonable interpretation be that the signalling is somehow inviting drivers to believe something that is not necessarily correct, even if the actually signalling arrangements are not actually 'wrong'. Some years back there was a good series on the underground that went into driver training, and a driver spadded on her first day (IIRC) alone because she treated one of those white diagonal lines that, I assume, indicate to the driver what route is set, as a (in road terms) filter signal. I felt desperately sorry for her, not only having a Spad so early, but having it televised. I also wonder about the quality of training that allowed drivers to qualify without having the fact that such a signal is NOT a filter thoroughly drilled into them.
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Post by class411 on Jul 5, 2018 8:43:19 GMT
I am thankful of the intensive service we do get but National Rail seems to grasp the concept, why can't the tube lines with newer stock do the same I would imagine it's because the powers that be believe (probably correctly) that it would confuse passengers to have two different systems in operation. Even regular users could get momentarily confused. I know exactly what to expect from the LU and NR trains I use all the time, but I still occasionally go to press the (inside) button on an S-Stock when it stops, and stand like a lemon for a second on an Electrostar at my destination. And these are trains that I use all the time and have been doing so since each were introduced.
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Post by class411 on Jul 4, 2018 13:12:23 GMT
It is art: Central line art project. I know that it is art because the website tells me so. But I am an artistic ignoramus, so I wouldn't know art even if it hit me on the head! You would have loved René Magritte's "This is not a picture of a hammer".
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Post by class411 on Jul 1, 2018 13:20:11 GMT
I can see the logic in this argument, but if it's a complete answer, then why is it that on NR, people will continue to walk along the outside of walk-through trains right up to - and in some cases past, the scheduled departure time? There is something quite illogical about people's behaviour, and, having given it further thought I think it's down to the confusion - to which someone allude earlier - between the 'I'm just about to depart' beeps and the 'I don't want the passengers getting too hot/cold so I'm closing these doors' beeps. Maybe NR passengers listen out for the departure whistle? So, on the one hand, underground passengers are too ignorant to understand even the most elementary aspects of signalling, but NR passengers all know about the departure whistle (that doesn't always happen).
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Post by class411 on Jul 1, 2018 11:28:49 GMT
Before the introduction of the S-Stock, people would walk alongside the train and either use the signal or the door beeps to time their entry. As you correctly point out, there may be times when the inside of the train is more inviting than continuing outside, but it's generally easier to walk outside the train than weave along inside it, so I'm still not entirely clear why passengers have lost confidence in their ability to successfully enter the train whilst still attempting to reach their optimum carriage on the more easily navigable platform. With previous stock you couldn't walk through. If you are picky about your travelling environment your only option was to walk along the platform looking for somewhere you were happy with, knowing that as soon as door alarm sounds you'd have to dive through the nearest doorway. Now you can walk through at leisure with no anxiety about when exactly it will leave. It's the certainty. MerseyRail termini have departure boards so passengers know how long they have until departure. If there's ten minutes people walk along the platform and find a comfortable seat. If there's a minute people will get on the first opportunity and then walk through it to find their seat of choice. I can see the logic in this argument, but if it's a complete answer, then why is it that on NR, people will continue to walk along the outside of walk-through trains right up to - and in some cases past, the scheduled departure time? There is something quite illogical about people's behaviour, and, having given it further thought I think it's down to the confusion - to which someone allude earlier - between the 'I'm just about to depart' beeps and the 'I don't want the passengers getting too hot/cold so I'm closing these doors' beeps.
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Post by class411 on Jul 1, 2018 10:15:01 GMT
Are you really suggesting that people don't know that a red signal at the end of a platform means that the train can't move? If you asked them they would probably know that, but they have no knowledge of how long it is going to be red or how long there is between the signal turning green and the doors closing. The signal is not always clearly visible (especially for short people on busy platforms), and not everybody's eyesight In my experience the interval between a diver getting a proceed signal and closing the doors varies between about 2 and 10 seconds. I've experienced drivers who waited for those walking alongside the train to enter, and I've experienced drivers who have not. This applies equally to the tube and the DLR. I presume that the extended delays are due to something like the driver not being quite ready for whatever reason, or some indication that its not safe to close the doors at that moment (and I have no way of knowing which, or predicting which is going to be the case). In times of disruption I've experienced trains sat at green signals for minutes at a time (in at least one case the driver explicitly said that they could see the train in front so they were waiting at the platform not in the tunnel). Without some clear, reliable and consistent indicator designed for passengers that explicitly says how long they have until the doors close for the final time before departure, it is perfectly logical for passengers to board at the first available door and walk through the train. Particularly if the environment on the train is better than the environment outside (warmer or dryer particularly). All this may well be true, but this inability to interpret the signalling seems to have coincided with the arrival of walk through trains. Before the introduction of the S-Stock, people would walk alongside the train and either use the signal or the door beeps to time their entry. As you correctly point out, there may be times when the inside of the train is more inviting than continuing outside, but it's generally easier to walk outside the train than weave along inside it, so I'm still not entirely clear why passengers have lost confidence in their ability to successfully enter the train whilst still attempting to reach their optimum carriage on the more easily navigable platform.
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Post by class411 on Jul 1, 2018 8:18:12 GMT
The last few posts are very "railway centric". You would be surprised to know there's only a very small minority that understand railway signalling. Strange that. Are you really suggesting that people don't know that a red signal at the end of a platform means that the train can't move? From observation, this is evidently true. I was thinking of stations such as Hammersmith HC&C, where the first set of doors nearest the barrier are at the rear end of the train so everyone has a clear forward view of the actual signal controlling the train.
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Post by class411 on Jun 30, 2018 17:44:08 GMT
I certainly would favour bringing the 45 second hold on S stock down. Summer and winter it's a waste of energy, and particularly at stations with long dwell times due to padding in the timetable or driver changes such as Earls Court, it makes sense to bring down. Especially now as most passengers know a closed door can be opened if the button is lit, on a held S stock train. No, please, no. It's bad enough as it is at a terminus where passengers (few of whom seem to have grasped the concept that a train's departure is controlled by signals, and if there is a bright red light at the far end of the platform the train is not going anywhere for at least a few seconds) stream onto the platform and hurl themselves at the first set of doors should they ever manage to close for a second or two. Followed by the vast majority seeming to promenade through most of the length of the train.
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Post by class411 on Jun 27, 2018 12:57:47 GMT
Very incorrect geographically :-P Do enlighten us.
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Post by class411 on Jun 19, 2018 17:26:10 GMT
Those are absolutely fascinating.
Thanks to Daniel for producing them, and yourself for bringing them to our attention.
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Post by class411 on Jun 16, 2018 7:44:04 GMT
You can make as many PAs as you like - some people never listen, and then get confused when what was foretold in the PA comes to pass. Not to mention the ever increasing headphone brigade! And the fact that at least half of non-recorded announcements are inaudible/incomprehensible.
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Post by class411 on Jun 5, 2018 18:29:11 GMT
And one could ask the same question about the SSR system... Oh how cruel. I see what you did there.
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Post by class411 on Jun 5, 2018 17:34:29 GMT
When the Thales TBTC was being developed it had to meet headway targets set by LUL and computer modeling was used to maximise headways, trains however were kept to 0.5 mph of the Target speed as a result train would be constantly motoring on and off on uphill gradient and braking on downhill gradient, this did mean a more jerky journey, in addition the trains traction software was set to a maximum rate, rather than at 50% when interrunning with the old trains and signalling system as overlaps would be compromised. over time tweaks to the system have been made to smooth things out, although we may have just become 'used'to the new train performance under TBTC. 0.5 mph seems a very low hysteresis, but, if the accelerative and decelerative forces can be controlled sufficiently finely there is no reason why a train cannot proceed smoothly with that value. Does anyone know just how fine a control of traction and breaking force are available to modern ATO systems?
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Post by class411 on Jun 5, 2018 12:07:51 GMT
Coasting when using electric power is not the same as coasting in something driven by an internal combustion engine. Apart from friction (ignoring regenerative breaking), the electric motors do not provide 'engine breaking' as an IC engine does.
It's a pretty safe bet that modern control systems are capable of very fine granularity in the amount of power delivered, so they can probably deliver just enough to overcome the various drag factors on the train - friction and wind resistance. But there is no reason why a ATO system should not deliver zero power if, for example, the train is gently descending at a constant speed. There are no adverse safety considerations to it behaving in that way.
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Post by class411 on Jun 4, 2018 17:05:39 GMT
I noticed this morning that two of their prospective plans were to do away with the peak/off peek distinction and get rid of railcards.
Way to decrease crowding and increase revenue!
Remove the financial incentive for people to travel out of rush hour and the incentives that get them to used half (or more) empty trains.
Really, I think people can quite easily manage "It's cheaper if you travel after 10:00" and you get x% off all fares with a railcard.
Where the problems occur are when you have to handle nonsense like:
If you want to go from London to Manchester in three months, you might get the cheapest fare now, or maybe next week, or perhaps the day before the journey, if we've got any seats left, oh, and by the way, it's cheaper if you go via Edinburgh and Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch (unless it's a Friday or a bank holiday when you should go via Strood but you must by a return for the first half of the journey and two singles for the second part.)
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Post by class411 on Jun 4, 2018 9:56:35 GMT
I suspect that most of the cost reduction would be down continual fall in the price of electronic components, and computer sub assemblies. Think it is probably down to buying an off the shelf design from Data Displays. Buying cheap is not always the best idea. That would certainly save a hell of a lot. Really, though, they need to rethink the whole describer system from the ground up, bearing in mind the changes in the relative costs of various technologies. Given the extreme cheapness of LCD displays now, it would possibly be better to use a number of these along the platform, rather than relatively expensive dot matrix systems.
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Post by class411 on Jun 4, 2018 9:20:09 GMT
The sad thing is, though, that whilst the power problem is easy enough to overcome (solid state converter or one of the suggestions from spsmiler), presumable the signalling is a dead end? Obviously you can't halt progress just so heritage trains can run, but it is sad to think that relatively soon it will be impossible to run heritage trains at all - at least under their own power/control. Where I used to work it was know as forward thinking but they all had their heads in the sand. Sorry, what was known as forward thinking?
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Post by class411 on Jun 4, 2018 8:42:13 GMT
The sad thing is, though, that whilst the power problem is easy enough to overcome (solid state converter or one of the suggestions from spsmiler), presumable the signalling is a dead end? Obviously you can't halt progress just so heritage trains can run, but it is sad to think that relatively soon it will be impossible to run heritage trains at all - at least under their own power/control.
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Post by class411 on Jun 4, 2018 7:35:45 GMT
(potential sacrilege alert:) It may be that LU is the wrong place to want to see heritage trains running. At least one iconic Sprague train from the Paris metro is used on a museum railway. The line is not electrified - instead they have adopted another solution (diesel generator - either towed or inside the train, I am not sure which). Maybe this is what we should hope for here in the UK? Maybe fuel cell would be better / cleaner than diesel - as is planned for some withdrawn Class 321 trains? Simon - thinking outside the box (end of potential sacrilege alert:) Isn't it more a matter of signalling than power supplies?
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Post by class411 on Jun 4, 2018 6:37:29 GMT
The older signs were made by Data Display to a LUL/Metronet specification that included many unused features like remote monitoring and extra thick shatterproof glass, their large size made them awkward to fit on platforms without obstructing other signs and cameras. The newer smaller signs are from the same company for about a tenth of the price. Hmmm, had an idea that cost cutting was part of the reason! I suspect that most of the cost reduction would be down continual fall in the price of electronic components, and computer sub assemblies.
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Post by class411 on Jun 2, 2018 8:01:45 GMT
Looks like we're stuck with 'train station'. Even enthusiasts use it. Although I must admit that I always use 'railway station', I can't see a problem with 'train station' (other than that the sound doesn't flow as nicely). It's a place where trains spend some time stationary, in the same way as a police station is a place where the police spend time (relatively) stationary. The rest of the railway is pretty much stationary, pretty much all of the time.
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Post by class411 on Jun 1, 2018 18:48:51 GMT
A little ironic, living in a station, and having to travel 0.4 miles to the, er, station.
But it looks rather idyllic, (until they reinstate the rail line for heavy goods movements.
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Post by class411 on May 31, 2018 18:41:25 GMT
It should happen overnight whilst the station is closed, as it means that the escalators don't 'wear' in the same pattern all the time and retain the ability to run both ways. A lot of those with the one way restriction are because of a lack of regular reversals. There may be some point in doing it from the point of view of maintaining an ability to run in both directions (although that sounds slightly unlikely, and if it was necessary at all it would surely only be necessary for a couple of minutes at a time.) However, that method would do virtually nothing to balance wear, because the reason to reverse escalators for wear balancing is to cause people standing on the right to be standing on the other side from when it is in normal operation. Clearly this will not happen when the station is unoccupied. Similarly there is not a great deal of point in doing it when the station is very lightly loaded - unless, perhaps, you could have, say, one direction for four hours a day when the load is heavy and the other direction for the rest of the day when the load is lighter but still significant.
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Post by class411 on May 31, 2018 16:19:46 GMT
Some drivers love the Drain and spend as much time down there as they can Do they get nicknamed 'sewer rats' by their colleagues?
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