class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 23, 2018 9:20:27 GMT
When I was training as a station assistant (not CSA) we were instructed that if we feel threatened we should go somewhere with a door that could be secured which in most cases that would be the station control room. On train the only place we have is the cab which as has been demonstrated cannot be secured. If a member of station staff is assaulted they will be sent home or to hospital as necessary. If a train driver is assaulted on an ATO line the train will carry on until the next station (providing the emergency brake wasn't tripped during the assault) and they can then be sent home or to hospital but if the driver is assaulted on a non-ATO line the train stops where it is, any assistance will have to go to the train (and driver) which obviously is going to take a lot longer. On the operational side of things if a member of station staff is unable to continue working the station possibly would have to close until replacement staff arrive which would be inconvenient for passengers who want to use that station but usually there are alternative routes available. If a driver is unable to continue working the train stays where it is until a replacement driver can arrive and the line part suspended which is going to inconvenience a lot more passengers, especially if they're stuck on a train between stations. I still can't help but think this is being disproportionate. I appreciate that I am not on the "front line". We have station staff, DLR captains etc all in the supposed line of fire. I can't comprehend that drivers are more vulnerable. If someone is blocking the cab door there is nowhere the driver could reasonably go. Whereas the staff you mention could all retreat to safety. Well yes, of course, spend a few hundred million on converting all lines to ATO, rather than a few hundred thousand converting the door locks. Makes sense to me.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 21, 2018 16:44:11 GMT
Well, they still need the ticket office... secure store for cash and card stock etc. Cash? What is this strange thing of which you speak?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 18, 2018 18:12:09 GMT
At Shepherd's Bush Market today, a Hammersmith train arrived and the doors of the front carriage did not open.
After what seemed like a minute, but was probably more like 15 seconds, the driver's door opened and the driver yelled at people to move back and use the second carriage for ingress.
The doors worked normally at Goldhawk Road.
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Post by class411 on Sept 6, 2018 14:14:59 GMT
Or just a convenient point of blame? Indeed. Even if they are custom devices it seems a long time to source new ones. They are not the most complicated of components.
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Post by class411 on Sept 5, 2018 8:04:12 GMT
My mistake. I hadn't grasped the fact that, no matter how asinine the behaviour, it's never the passenger to blame. You are making a mistake that many people make when talking about many different situations. It is quite possible for some unwanted event to have more than one entity to blame. I am pretty sure that in a case where a passenger had tried to squeeze between closing doors and injury resulted, if it went to court, even if it was found that the railway company was culpable, any damages would be reduced to account for the passengers contributory culpability. Yes, there is blame attached to passengers who act in this way, but, given that the railway companies know full well that they do so, it is their duty to mitigate against such behaviour. Otherwise you could revoke vast swathes of health and safety regulations on the basis that they would not be needed if everybody behaved perfectly.
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Post by class411 on Sept 4, 2018 11:54:39 GMT
Gosh, I'd love to see that :-) And it happened on my line, on a stretch I pass daily... I'm quite sure you wouldn't love to see that if you were on a packed train pressed against doors which flew open. A bit odd to wish for something that could result in death. I think he meant that he'd like to have seen ' that' - i.e. the situation where the doors opened in a lightly loaded carriage, and as a matter of actual fact, no one was injured. I think it would be quite spooky. Not exactly scary, but something that would make you feel anxious and uneasy - at least for a moment or two.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 4, 2018 11:50:12 GMT
Part of the problem, I suppose, is that lifts have worked this way for well over half a century and no one has ever said that you shouldn't use the sensitive edge to cause a lift to reopen its doors.
Thus people see a door that they believe will open if its closure is inhibited and, from past experience, assume that this means that they can reopen it by blocking its progress.
Even if you tell them not to, I suspect that the 'OMG I'm going to miss the train - lurch' reaction takes place much more quickly than the engagement of a proper assessment of the situation.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 4, 2018 9:08:35 GMT
I cannot confirm that he took early retirement because of the incident, I didn't know him or even that the driver involved was from Hainault until I was on my meal break yesterday which conveniently happened to be at Hainault. It would be sad to think that someone felt they had to cut their career short as a result of such an incident. Particularly since the failure seems to have been systemic - at one level or another - rather than the fault of a specific individual.
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Post by class411 on Sept 4, 2018 9:06:22 GMT
There's plenty of speculation about the reasons on various railway Facebook groups. Some conversations this morning on a "big railway" group wonder how they used slam-door stock for so many years! without checking figures I suggested that there's possibly been more incidents of passengers being dragged along by sliding door stock than there ever were with slam doors. Maybe people were more sensible in earlier years? And it was I believe 1956 when the last hand-worked sliding doors disappeared from the Underground. It'll be interesting to see what the cause of this one is. Slam door stock frequently travelled with doors open. Back in the late seventies/early eighties, I commuted from a station with a curved platform. I'd travel at the front of the train because it was generally less crowded. The station exit was about two carriages away from the other end. I would say that 50% of the time when I alighted from a twelve or thirteen carriage train at night, I'd need to kick at least one door closed as the train departed. Most of these were on the 'second catch', so would probably not have allowed egress if anyone had leant on them, but occasionally the doors were fully open. Without stationing multiple porters (yes, they were thing back then), it would have been impossible to dispatch trains in a timely manner and ensure that all doors were correctly closed.
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Post by class411 on Sept 4, 2018 8:48:13 GMT
As the report states the driver had joined LUL in 1998, qualified as a TOp on the Northern line in 1999 and transferred to the Central line in October 2004. This was his first incident and he had received five commendations. He was a Hainault driver, I was there for my meal break this evening so I asked around and he took early retirement. Can you confirm that he took early retirement as a direct result of this incident?
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Post by class411 on Sept 4, 2018 8:45:51 GMT
I don't know what is more astonishing the passenger filming that did not bother to alert the driver, or the people sat in the carriage that haven't even noticed it. The next station is West Hampstead change for National rail services. Doors are open on the left hand side. Aren't all the alarms by the doors? wouldn't the passenger be putting themselves in considerable danger by trying to do that? Probably wouldn't be the best idea in the world, because, if the carriage is not packed, there is virtually no danger of anyone falling out. On the other hand, in decades of regular underground use, I can't ever remember being thrown against a door, so if there was a compelling reason to alert the driver, and bearing in mind that there are always posts to hold on to near the doors, I wouldn't be concerned about doing so.
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Post by class411 on Sept 4, 2018 8:21:11 GMT
What amazes me is that at that time of day we're running 26 trains per hour, you only have to wait a couple of minutes and there's another train but still punters dive at the doors like its the last train ever. That sentence should have a 'theoretically', in bold, at the front. I've noticed on more than one occasion that there will be three trains extremely close together and then a very long gap before the next. Very annoying when the previous day you've been delayed for no other reason than 'to even out the service'. I'd suggest that that's one of the reasons why, even passengers who know the supposed line frequency, tend to want to get on a train if they can. A bird in the hand ...
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Post by class411 on Sept 3, 2018 8:06:55 GMT
Very nice clip. Two things of interest: **The Edmondson card ticket being dated in a traditional press (there was a long queue for tickets at W'stow Central up office - I'd cheated, getting ticket 0000 at the down office!). Has any aspect of this film changed so much as the ticket issuing process? **Blackhorse Rd not being shown as an interchange - because BR wanted to close their station (which now handles a couple of million passengers a year in an ordinary year) I thought the 'whatever or wherever Walthamstow may be' comment was rather amusing. Reminiscent of a Fry and Laurie London estate agents sketch: "The north? No, never heard of that; I've heard of the south east; never been there, but I've heard of it."
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Post by class411 on Sept 2, 2018 18:52:20 GMT
Excellent!
A very gaily decorated cake.
Just a very small piece for everyone working on the Victoria Line, one assumes.
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Post by class411 on Sept 2, 2018 10:05:27 GMT
Will there be a cake?
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Post by class411 on Sept 1, 2018 7:38:47 GMT
A 1st-generation Walkman and a latest-generation iPod are very different to each other. They use very different technologies, and the iPod offers many more features and a better user experiecnce, but they are still ultimately both personal music players doing the same job. The Class 350 sensitive edge system and the S stock sensitive edge system use different technologies, and the latter offers more features and a better better user experience, but they are still ultimately both sensitive edge systems doing the same job. I thought the primary purpose of the original Walkman was to mangle unwanted tapes.
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Post by class411 on Aug 30, 2018 7:46:56 GMT
Errr this was a failure of the Conductor... Ding, ding and away. Perhaps a driver having access to CCTV would have seen the passenger? As for suggested action, perhaps have automatic gates onto the platform, to prevent passengers accessing the platform during train dispatch. It was common for porters / ticket collectors at stations to close the barrier just before the train was due to depart. Yes the conductor caused the trap-and-drag but they were also the one who stopped it. Other trap and drag incidents on DOO routes show that even with CCTV it can be very difficult to determine whether someone is merely close to the train or interacting with it. The only way you can guarantee no trap and drag incidents is to ensure that there is no person between the train and the yellow line at any time the train is moving. I can't think of any way of achieving this without one or more members of staff who can (individually or collectively) monitor the entire platform-train interface from the moment the door closing alarm starts until the moment the entire train has left the platform. Certainly for trains longer than about two carriages the driver is going to need to be looking at the line ahead before the rear of the train is clear of the platform. And even if you could, how would you ever get all of the passengers on a really busy platform out of the zone in a reasonable timeframe on a busy platform where people might be waiting for the next train or adjusting their luggage, all the while happily playing music so they could not hear the guard?
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Post by class411 on Aug 29, 2018 7:54:40 GMT
A couple of people have asked rhetorically why passengers would need to access a cab or detrain without the permission and assistance of tube staff. The accident near Holland Park 28th July 1958 comes to mind. A number of LT staff did not cover themselves in glory on that day (eg Station Master Nelder), but life's like that and the outcome could have been very different if the passengers had been wholly reliant on the staff to enable them to detrain. How you balance that with the safety of Train Ops is another matter. The solution of locking the leading cab and leaving the trailing cab unlocked would not have hindered evacuation on that occasion. The only situation where I can see a problem with that solution is where a driver became incapacitated AND a fire broke out in the middle of the train. I doubt that's ever happened. The advantage of the solution is that it is extremely cheap and easily retro-fittable. A slightly more complicated system where the lock 'timed-out' if the driver didn't respond to a request for entry would be a little more expensive but would remove the objection that passengers could not get out if the driver became incapacitated.
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Post by class411 on Aug 28, 2018 16:05:18 GMT
Feet on seats is listed under "Recliners".
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Post by class411 on Aug 27, 2018 13:06:50 GMT
Presumably, if they did, it would be in name only.
Rather like Bush and Pye TV's and suchlike.
It seems unlikely, though, as the people responsible for railway contracts are not likely to be influenced by the vague feeling that a product has a good 'name', which is the normal purpose for recycling names.
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Post by class411 on Aug 27, 2018 11:30:21 GMT
Along the same lines of thought as North End, do you check your mirror to notice whether a driver behind is indicating to use a filter lane, and your action is actually slowing them down when they could keep going?
So, what would you have me do if I saw what you described (although I referred to a red signal, not one with a filter at green)? Drive up to the light as fast as possible and slam on the brakes at the last minute?
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Post by class411 on Aug 27, 2018 9:18:33 GMT
Admin comment: It’s really interesting looking at both POVs with regard to signalling but if it strays any more I’ll start a new thread so it can continue in the right place. Let’s also not take it the wrong side of a healthy, good natured discussion. If it felt like a two way conversation I'd happily carry it on, but sadly anything I say seems to be rubbished. It seems 14 years as a driver, the last 6 of which has been as an Instructor Operator - all on the District line - plus 4 years prior to that as station staff [ironically] at Earls Court don't qualify me to have enough knowledge of how the Earls Court area works from either a signalling perspective nor how drivers work their trains through it. Your comments made perfect sense to me. Although not a train driver, I do make the same sort of decisions when approaching a red traffic light; keeping the speed such that I will come to a smooth stop if it fails to turn green. Obviously that requires a good deal less skill than the same procedure with a train, but the principle is the same. I think North End's worry is that some drivers might 'engage autopilot', where the autopilot is programmed to expect a signal to clear in a certain way, and hence not treat it correctly: 'I must at all times be able to come to a full stop before passing the signal'.
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Post by class411 on Aug 26, 2018 8:04:04 GMT
When I used Victoria on Tuesday, someone, by the judicious use of some ink, had modified the "We're opening 3 new escalators" to read "We're opening 8 new escalators". It was done very convincingly, and for a second I wondered where they were putting them all. The upgrade is looking quite good, but they cannot solve the perennial problem of the cross streams of passengers NR1-8 -> District versus NR9-19 -> Victoria. I'm waiting to see how LU will operate the station and see who will be faced with a long walk from the Vic Line platforms - those entering or those leaving. I understand the logic LU employ to try to string people out over an extended internal walking distance but it's bloomin' annoying if you just want to get somewhere fast. I suspect I will end up going via the District Line ticket hall if I'm going to be forced to walk half way to St James Park and back to just get to / from the Vic Line. LU do seem to be using a form of one way system in the AM system with exiting passengers forced out via the new Wilton Rd staircase. Entry is via the entrances off Victoria main line station. Presumably they would make people exiting take the longer route to elongate the pulses that result from each arrival. Although they didn't have the sense to do that at Hammersmith and, of course, many people ignored the signage indicating they should access the platform via the long route as the wanted to catch their trains! What made it doubly daft (and seriously affected my opinion of the intelligence of those responsible for the station design) was that it also meant that the first set of stairs that most passengers encountered on the H&C side had a little (usually ignored) 'no entry' sign as they were supposed to continue past them, fighting with the people who had defied the 'take the long route to enter' signage, to another set of stairs at the end of the platform. After about five years of this chaos the giant brains at LU finally cottoned on and swapped the ingress/egress routes to the more sensible layout - and at the same times erected barriers to force people to use the indicated route, just as they became much less needed.
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Post by class411 on Aug 25, 2018 8:33:35 GMT
When I used Victoria on Tuesday, someone, by the judicious use of some ink, had modified the "We're opening 3 new escalators" to read "We're opening 8 new escalators". It was done very convincingly, and for a second I wondered where they were putting them all.
The upgrade is looking quite good, but they cannot solve the perennial problem of the cross streams of passengers NR1-8 -> District versus NR9-19 -> Victoria.
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Post by class411 on Aug 24, 2018 9:51:35 GMT
I too checked out Trackernet and found the same - so either the O/P’s perception of events is incorrect or Trackernet is fibbing..... Almost certainly my perception. As I had plenty of time I really wasn't paying that much attention until the second train left, and we started inching from the platform. Most likely I was mistaken about the first departing train being an Upminster one. It was the two trains that were clearly both going to use the same piece of track very soon, departing at the same time, and the ultra slow speed that were most puzzling. I think I have a clear picture of what happened, now.
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Post by class411 on Aug 22, 2018 20:35:25 GMT
This happened at around 10:10am. It may be normal, but in 60 years of using the Underground I've never known a train move so slowly for so long. The alternative is to move quickly to the next signal and then sit at a stand for longer. Indeed. And drivers seem to use a mixture of techniques. I've often known drivers reduce to a sub walking speed crawl (mainly coasting) when approaching a red signal, but I don't ever remember it happening when departing from a station. Presumably, knowing a train was departing from the adjacent platform, the driver used his knowledge of the track and signal spacing to work out a suitable speed which, in this instance, was extremely slow.
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Post by class411 on Aug 22, 2018 20:26:55 GMT
Don't they use earthing straps? Even if they do, presumably they have to remove them before the possession ends? Well, one would have thought that they would keep both the live rails shorted to ground, and have a well insulated tool or tools to unhitch the last straps once the section being worked on was known to be clear, so that if the power did return prematurely, it would just cause a circuit breaker to trip. Keeping line workers safe from live current should be, systemically, at least, fail safe, with a well designed system.
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Post by class411 on Aug 22, 2018 18:20:57 GMT
This happened at around 10:10am.
It may be normal, but in 60 years of using the Underground I've never known a train move so slowly for so long.
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Post by class411 on Aug 22, 2018 12:01:13 GMT
There was no signal failure at Earls Court or around the surrounding area this morning. This does happen quite frequently and happens when the trains are either out of turn or arrive late at Earl’s Court and the signaller puts them back in turn to arrive at Barking and Upminster in the right order as this can cause issues when trains arrive one after the other going into sidings / Depot. Sorry, I meant to say that it was yesterday (Tuesday 21st) morning. What was odd about the two later trains going first was that all three involved were going to Upminster. Otherwise I'd just have assumed it was re-ordering. The snail's pace departure from the platform, when there was another train also going, in the first instance, to Gloucester Road, departing the adjacent platform at exactly the same time was weird.
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Post by class411 on Aug 22, 2018 8:08:45 GMT
I caught a District Line train from Hammersmith to Victoria (destination Upminster). It made its way very slowly to Earl's Court, stopping frequently (with 'We are being held at a red signal' announcements each time). Once at Earl's Court, it was on the outside track, and two trains, both for Upminster arrived and departed whilst we waited. During this time there were no announcements by the driver.
As the second of these trains was leaving its platform, we started and crawled out of the station - at much less than walking pace. After a minute or so we speeded up to a very slow pace and made our way to Gloucester Road. After that we proceeded at a normal pace.
Whilst writing this it occurred to me that perhaps there was a signal failure on our platform, but it really was a very odd experience.
And why do LU insist that drivers make entirely superfluous announcements about red signals whenever the train stops at one (what do they think passengers think when a train stops other than at a platform - that's it's stopped to have a natter with its mate on the adjacent line?), and yet go completely silent when there is a significant delay?
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