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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2010 10:49:49 GMT
Sorry if this has already been discussed, buy why could not a few units replace the 38ts on the I.O.W. ? I'm guessing the 67ts are in gauge for the I.O.W. and would be newer than the current stock with many units being scrapped the availability of spares being salvaged. The 38ts then could go into preservation providing a summer service on the I.O.W.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2010 14:40:40 GMT
Sorry if this has already been discussed, buy why could not a few units replace the 38ts on the I.O.W. ? I'm guessing the 67ts are in gauge for the I.O.W. and would be newer than the current stock with many units being scrapped the availability of spares being salvaged. The 38ts then could go into preservation providing a summer service on the I.O.W. I'd thought this as well. It does seem a bit strange to scrap something that could possibly give good service on the IOW. Even if they were put on some sort of deferred lease it would bring some cash into LUL.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2010 17:41:10 GMT
Unless I'm mistaken the 67TS was ruled out for the Isle of Wight because of several matters; the control system i.e. lack of a Deadmans Handle - easily remedied i'd imagine & no Guards Panels (OPO would result in having to re-open booking offices)
Its not insurmountable problems - but I'd rather say the 1972 Mk I stock would be more suitable for IOW Service.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2010 18:11:50 GMT
Where on earth are the 72MKI's now anyway?
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Post by seaeagle on Sept 20, 2010 18:12:17 GMT
I think there should be a post-refurb DM saved at least, as an example of LU's first corporate refurb. It can stand fir both the 67s and the 72s. Oh, the 73s MUST be preserved, but that's a diff story. DM 3052 is being saved in the depot museum at Acton when it's withdrawn from service. Out of interest, what would be the market for a farewell tour with the 67's?
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Post by seaeagle on Sept 20, 2010 18:14:00 GMT
Where on earth are the 72MKI's now anyway? Some of them are going up and down the Victoria Line, plenty of DM's and trailers still in use, but not for much longer.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 20, 2010 18:20:59 GMT
I think there should be a post-refurb DM saved at least, as an example of LU's first corporate refurb. It can stand fir both the 67s and the 72s. Oh, the 73s MUST be preserved, but that's a diff story. DM 3052 is being saved in the depot museum at Acton when it's withdrawn from service. Out of interest, what would be the market for a farewell tour with the 67's? There will always be a market for farewell tours, but even if they don't do one, I'm sure they'll do a good "last day" send off. Just under a year to go for the 67's . . . As for car 3052, for those who aren't aware, this was the car that the Queen rode in when she opened the line in 1969 (official opening that is, some bits were open in 1968). Would be good if it could be restored to original, unrefurbished condition.
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Post by Chris W on Sept 20, 2010 18:38:02 GMT
Sorry if this has already been discussed, buy why could not a few units replace the 38ts on the I.O.W. ? I'm guessing the 67ts are in gauge for the I.O.W. and would be newer than the current stock with many units being scrapped the availability of spares being salvaged. The 38ts then could go into preservation providing a summer service on the I.O.W. Based upon the informal conversation I had with IOW railway staff last week (I am more than happy to be corrected) I think I can answer that in a short economics course: - Budget to convert 38ts stock (late 1980s costs) = £300k
- Actual cost of conversion/refurbishment in late 1980s = approx 10 x £300k
- Profit per annum today = approx £500k
True you speculate to accumulate, but economics and return for investment are key particularly when at late 1980s values conversion costed millions. Will the IOW railway increase their income in line with any investment in new/refurbished stock? IMO from what I witnessed last week no. Therefore if the staff feel that they can keep the 38ts units going by sacrificing one unit for parts and given that the TOP completes their current franchise in less than 10 years (I may be wrong, but I'm sure it ends in 2017) I think they'll squeeze what useful life they can out of the remaining 5 units. When the franchise renews IMO that'll be the time, particularly given that the 73ts units on the Picc seem to now have a life extension. In some respects we should be happy as the best chance we have to ride the 38ts units is on the IOW (bar occasional 38ts tours on LU metals). Constant use is the best form of preservation as that means constant maintenance. In fact we should be celebrating and congratulating the hard working maintenance staff who are working miracles... the only issue being the poor track/alignment in some stretches of the line
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Post by Chris W on Sept 20, 2010 18:52:07 GMT
As for car 3052, for those who aren't aware, this was the car that the Queen rode in when she opened the line in 1969 (official opening that is, some bits were open in 1968). Would be good if it could be restored to original, unrefurbished condition. But surely that'll mean the loss of unrefurbed car 3016 for parts...
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Post by superteacher on Sept 20, 2010 18:55:00 GMT
As for car 3052, for those who aren't aware, this was the car that the Queen rode in when she opened the line in 1969 (official opening that is, some bits were open in 1968). Would be good if it could be restored to original, unrefurbished condition. But surely that'll mean the loss of unrefurbed car 3016 for parts... I'm sure that could recreate the materials and internal decor from the original design spec. A lot of the refurbished Routemaster buses that were sold privately have, or are, being restored to original condition. Where is car 3016?
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North End
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Post by North End on Sept 20, 2010 19:05:24 GMT
Where on earth are the 72MKI's now anyway? Some of them are going up and down the Victoria Line, plenty of DM's and trailers still in use, but not for much longer. This is what I believe to be the current status of the 72MkI stock. Those listed as in service on the Victoria Line may have been withdrawn in last couple of months, and I'm not too certain about those units listed as being stored at Shoeburyness. Otherwise this list is fairly accurate. 3202 - Stored Acton Works 3203 - In service Bakerloo Line 3204 - In service Victoria Line 3210 - In service Bakerloo Line 3213 - Tube Lines Asset Inspection Train 3215 - Stored London Road Depot 3216 - In service Victoria Line 3217 - In service Victoria Line 3218 - In service Bakerloo Line 3219 - Stored MOD Shoeburyness 3220 - In service Victoria Line 3221 - Stored MOD Shoeburyness 3222 - Stored MOD Shoeburyness 3223 - In service Victoria Line 3225 - In service Victoria Line 3226 - Stored MOD Shoeburyness 3229 - Stored Aldwych 3501 - In service Bakerloo Line 3507 - In service Bakerloo Line 3511 - Stored Hainault Depot 3512 - In service Bakerloo Line 3515 - Sold to Schweerbau Glasgow, don't know what happened after that ?? 3516 - In service Victoria Line 3520 - In service Victoria Line 3524 - In service Bakerloo Line 3527 - In service Victoria Line 3529 - In service Victoria Line 3530 - Preserved London Transport Museum
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Post by Chris W on Sept 20, 2010 19:10:30 GMT
Apologies... my mistake its a 72ts at the museum 3530 I'm sure that 3016 was recovered though and not scrapped... low hall museum @ Walthamstow perhaps
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Post by superteacher on Sept 20, 2010 19:18:42 GMT
Apologies... my mistake its a 72ts at the museum 3530 I'm sure that 3016 was recovered though and not scrapped... low hall museum @ Walthamstow perhaps Yes, there is one at that museum, so it's probably 3016.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 4:28:49 GMT
Unless I'm mistaken the 67TS was ruled out for the Isle of Wight because of several matters; the control system i.e. lack of a Deadmans Handle - easily remedied i'd imagine & no Guards Panels (OPO would result in having to re-open booking offices) Its not insurmountable problems - but I'd rather say the 1972 Mk I stock would be more suitable for IOW Service. Why do you need a guard's panel? Can't the train be OPO, and have a proper roving conductor?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 12:42:10 GMT
3016 is the One at Walthamstow. Had a look at the weekend at London Open House weekend. ( hence my orginal question)
Has no doors, no bogies and many small parts missing... plus the cab is a right off. It complete stripped and with no floor and what little metal work there all bent.
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Post by Chris W on Sept 21, 2010 15:33:14 GMT
As I understand it 3016 was involved in an accident and was consequently written off, hence being obtained privately. What I stated yesterday re 3016 was probably inappropriate (re donating parts to restore 3052 back to its original state) as the surviving 67ts in original condition is not owned by the museum... however... as an example CO/CP car 54256 was in a dire state and at one point the Low Hall Museum was asking the owner to remove it due to its appalling condition. Private collectors often start with lots of enthusiasm, but then lose interest or have cash flow issues. Hopefully 3016 is in the active process of being restored, however all to many example of 'saved/preserved''railway rolling stock sit along siding around the country simply rusting away
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Post by seaeagle on Sept 21, 2010 17:57:42 GMT
Just to confirm that DM 3016 was involved in an accident at Northumberland Park depot around 1991/92. An eight car 67 stock, (3016 was the north end DM), was being used to teach new Vic line drivers the push-out procedure, using the south end unit as the pushing unit, when the emergency brake failed on 16 unit, and was rammed into the stops on 33 road. The instructor lost a foot. The gutted shell of 3016 sat on sleepers for a few years by where the old 58 & 59 short roads used to be at Northumberland Park before being sold.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 19:34:13 GMT
I am aware that one 72mk1 went to germany for use as some kind of rail treatment cars and was painted in yellow, there were pics of it on t'internet but I cant find them anymore And as for 3016, the last time I saw it in the pump house museum, it was in a terrible state.
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metman
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Post by metman on Sept 21, 2010 19:44:57 GMT
I think two cars of 72 stock went to Germany.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 21:53:22 GMT
Why do you need a guard's panel? Can't the train be OPO, and have a proper roving conductor? The IOW already has roving conductor/guards. But why bother with two members of staff when at most times the trains run (Off Peak) at least near enough empty? Generally conversions for the IOW were done 'on the cheap' hence why I suggested the lack of Guards Panels to be an issue. I reckon 1972 Stock might make it to the IOW. Or perhaps 1992 Stock with a large quantity of sticky tape!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2010 4:58:59 GMT
Why do you need a guard's panel? Can't the train be OPO, and have a proper roving conductor? The IOW already has roving conductor/guards. But why bother with two members of staff when at most times the trains run (Off Peak) at least near enough empty? Generally conversions for the IOW were done 'on the cheap' hence why I suggested the lack of Guards Panels to be an issue. I reckon 1972 Stock might make it to the IOW. Or perhaps 1992 Stock with a large quantity of sticky tape! So even without guard's panels they'd work fine? So why raise the guard's panel issue? But yeah, 72's might be better...
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metman
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Post by metman on Sept 22, 2010 6:50:33 GMT
Without going two much off topic, I would suggest that for 3 car trains the 72stock would be easier to convert than the 67 stock. I would use the 3 car portion of the 72 stock and swap the UNDM with a DM.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2010 7:14:32 GMT
Without going two much off topic, I would suggest that for 3 car trains the 72stock would be easier to convert than the 67 stock. I would use the 3 car portion of the 72 stock and swap the UNDM with a DM. In order to have two compressors, right?
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Post by seaeagle on Sept 22, 2010 7:46:20 GMT
Without going two much off topic, I would suggest that for 3 car trains the 72stock would be easier to convert than the 67 stock. I would use the 3 car portion of the 72 stock and swap the UNDM with a DM. In order to have two compressors, right? No, DM's or UNDM's aren't fitted with compressors, only trailer cars are. I doubt it would be a hard job to move compressors to the DM's.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2010 8:06:19 GMT
In order to have two compressors, right? No, DM's or UNDM's aren't fitted with compressors, only trailer cars are. I doubt it would be a hard job to move compressors to the DM's. No, what I meant is that the 3-car unit trailer has 2 compressors; the trailers in the 4-car unit have one each. I was thinking of ripping a trailer out of a 4-car, but it'll only have 1 compressor that way.
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metman
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Post by metman on Sept 22, 2010 21:05:59 GMT
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 22, 2010 22:29:59 GMT
Three-car 1972ts units are single-ended, so they can't operate on their own. So why would they have been fitted with two compressors
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 5:44:31 GMT
Aren't the compressors for the brakes? Anyway, the point is to make a double-ended three-car unit. The Special Trailer from the three-car unit is more suitable than a Trailer from a four-car. In essence, what metman said before I started on compressors. ;D BTW are there any reasons why four-car units cannot be used on the IoW?
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metman
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Post by metman on Sept 23, 2010 7:34:44 GMT
I believe stabling arrangements and traffic demand.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 8:15:48 GMT
Which would make the additional car a liability... I suppose car stock had its advantages?
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