Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jan 15, 2009 13:38:08 GMT
There is no starting signal at Chesham either, as that to is a single platform at the end of a single-track branch.
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Post by setttt on Jan 15, 2009 13:54:17 GMT
Croxley southbound doesn't have one either IIRC
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 15, 2009 14:16:29 GMT
What's the technical reason for there being no starting signal at Olympia? Isn't it the only station without one? Or so I recall from the District Driver's Eye DVD. As ChrisM has pointed out, Chesham doesn't have a starting signal either; however Olympia does have WB7/WB28 - which although not strictly a starting signal for the platform (by location) does fulfill some element of the regulation/protection aspects that a starting signal would. WB7/WB28 controls the divergence into Lillie Bridge (WB28, via the points and crossover in advance) and the route into Earls Court (WB7, up to the 'X' signal on the approaches off the Olympia branch). In fact looking at the Yellow Peril for the automation of the Olympia Branch (15/70) - WB7 is referred to as 'Starting signal from Olympia single line to eastbound line'. So there *is* a starting signal at Olympia, just not on the end of the platform - but as noted in the same peril: 'no starting signal is provided for the bay road and trains must, therefore, depart in accordance with the timetable'. With the special 'Olympia' machine there is no time control, TD check and the machine is either in pushbutton or FCFS. Croxley southbound doesn't have one either IIRC Doesn't need it - JJ60 is sited to protect/regulate at the junction and any train sat in Croxley would be protected by JJ59 behind. AIUI JPX798 is only at the end of the NB because the track is either level or drops toward Watford needing a comparatively long overlap. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 15, 2009 14:37:37 GMT
I see that the proposed reduction (mentioned by happybunny) to a 1 train 20-min double-ended service IS due to start 13 December!
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Post by happybunny on Jan 15, 2009 17:41:34 GMT
Lets hope they sort out a solution whereby the fan heater can be turned on in the rear (non-active) cab.. otherwise there will be drivers complaining they are too cold and booking off in the middle of winter ! (the background heaters aren't that great) .. maybe the position switches will be uncovered and keys issued, we could even play guards  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 18:51:03 GMT
maybe the position switches will be uncovered and keys issued, we could even play guards You'll be a damn sight colder if you have to open the cab door to close the doors from the rear cab every time! I can see the DMTs trying to run this train with only one driver when they're short of spares, especially if one of the drivers on the train wants a PNR. Incidentally, will the one remaining train be 151? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 8:53:26 GMT
An idea that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is the "stepping back" system as employed the bakerloo/w+c/victoria lines. Would this have not worked in this scenario? At least the driver working in would have a PNB facility if needed in between trains and you just press a plunger to indicate the rear cab is empty. Would also iliminate a risk of a driver being left behind etc. Have seen it happen as well with late running/operational problems where control then make the train the origional drivers next turn to keep the service moving.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 12:14:20 GMT
We don't really do stepping back on the District - the only time I've known it done was during engineering work when we were reversing a train every 6 minutes at Mansion House. A DMT was there all day to make sure it worked.
The driver on the west end of the train will be able to go to the loo at Earls Court, where the staff toilet is by the headwall, but the east end driver will have to go upstairs to the ticket hall at High St Ken. Hopefully timetables will realise that it is no longer practical to have 4 hours of Olympias in a duty!
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Post by happybunny on Jan 16, 2009 12:22:31 GMT
There is a new toilet at High St Ken... it is in-between platform 2 and 3, just by the headwall of platform 2 and has a big white door- you need a code to get in. It is ideal when doing Olympia's or even if going towards Notting Hill Gate.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 16, 2009 16:59:58 GMT
Lets hope they sort out a solution whereby the fan heater can be turned on in the rear (non-active) cab.. otherwise there will be drivers complaining they are too cold and booking off in the middle of winter ! This also would affect the air-con unit. I would hate to be stuck in the back cab outside Earl's Court without being able to have either the fan heater (winter) or air-con unit (summer) available! Also, when due to be relieved you may have to use the 'J' door and side doors rather than the 'N'/'O' open flap inside. I hope a solution can be found for this. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 19:19:20 GMT
Lets hope they sort out a solution whereby the fan heater can be turned on in the rear (non-active) cab.. otherwise there will be drivers complaining they are too cold and booking off in the middle of winter ! (the background heaters aren't that great) .. maybe the position switches will be uncovered and keys issued, we could even play guards Oooo, now that is a very valid point that i bet hasn't been thought out properly ! I for one will not be sitting in the rear cab of a train without a fully functioning fan heater on a cold day ! I can't see the unions allowing stepping back at Olympia or High Street unless heated and safe accomodation is provided, i can't see standing in the cold for 15 - 20 mins being an acceptable option ! (Given the previous union directives for Barking e/b). |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 19:23:54 GMT
I went to the BETT fair at Olympia today and the train in the evening was as packed as the Vic line. Mind you, having the train there for 15 minutes didn't help! I find the first 2 or so coaches nearest the station entrance are sometimes packed like that - but the front coaches are still really empty. Everyone just jumps on the first 2 coaches in case the train goes without them. Happybunny makes a similar point. With regards to the proposal for just 1 train on the Olympia branch - if it helps ease the ridiculous amount of train congestion at Earls Court, I'm all for it!  As I've said before on here, the amount of delays at that junction are nothing short of dreadful and something has to be done about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 19:25:59 GMT
Didn't the service used to only run during events? Yep - and it was barely served by BR trains as well. Just a few DMUs shuttling back and forth from Clapham Junction during the peaks. I can rememebr there not being many passengers on either the District or the BR trains on the branch. The lines to Olympia have slowly evolved and increased in popularity over the last 15 or so years. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 19:30:31 GMT
AFAIK all the NR trains that call at Olympia also call at West Brompton, so I doubt Olympia gets much use as an interchange. Worth mnetioning that back in the days of exhibition-only Districts at Olympia and peak-only BR trains, the BR trains did not stop at West Brompton as there were no platforms for them there. |
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Post by happybunny on Jan 16, 2009 19:55:01 GMT
Why not just reduce the frequency to every 30 minutes off peak.. on the hour and half past, with just one train running.
I.E.
Oly a 1253
Oly d 1300
Ect - 1303 1/2
Hsk a 1307
Hsk d 1316
Ect - 1319 1/2
Oly a 1323
Oly d 1330
That is a good enough frequency.. if they can't wait that long they can get the southern/LO and change at West Brompton... since most of them will have to change at Earls Court for a City train or HSK for an Edgware/Circle to get to there destination anyway, they will still make the same amount of changes going via West Brompton.
Then in the peak times, they can bring another train out to increase to a 15 minute frequency, or do this double-manning if they wish.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 21:09:30 GMT
Oooo, now that is a very valid point that i bet hasn't been thought out properly ! I for one will not be sitting in the rear cab of a train without a fully functioning fan heater on a cold day !. Couldn't the other driver sit with the passengers in the last car until they are needed in the cab? |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jan 16, 2009 21:37:30 GMT
One of the consequences of the Exhibition-only service was that those seeking to break the all-stations Underground record had to pick a day when there was an Exhibition! It was possible to contact 55 Broadway for a list of all that were planned throughout the year. You then had to pick a Monday-Friday because of Ongar and Shoreditch!
The 'Kenny Belle' had a distinction of being the last steam-hauled branch service in London, and was then replaced by SR DEMUs and WR DMMUs. It was I think unadvertised, and was reputedly for Post Office workers at an office near Kensington (Olympia) station. In addition there were also the Motorail trains from 1955, although there was no District service to meet with them (they were car carriers after all). However, there were diversions from Euston and in UndergrounD I published a photo of a C Stock train that was part of a special service laid on to meet BR trains terminating at Olympia.
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jan 16, 2009 23:30:36 GMT
The 'Kenny Belle' had a distinction of being the last steam-hauled branch service in London, and was then replaced by SR DEMUs and WR DMMUs. It was I think unadvertised, and was reputedly for Post Office workers at an office near Kensington (Olympia) station. I always heard that this service was "unadvertised" and they certainly never made a big noise about it,but it was in the timetables and maps,and information at Clapham Jct. It was said to be for PO workers at a sorting office there,but it was always lightly used. In the mid-70s to early 80s (while I was going to school) it would always be there at Platform 1 or 2,Clapham Jct and I never saw it anything other than a Class 33 and a (nearly empty) 4TC unit.There were 2 departures from CJ,08:12 and 08:45 returning at 16:44 and 17:15. There was one train in service,the 33 normally running-round the TC (IE not using it as a control). I never saw a DMU on the service,nor a DEMU,which tended to stay on the Oxted lines or out in the sticks on the South Western. Things may have been different before 1976 or after 1981,though. It's good to see the West London Line being used properly now,though.....Although I miss the idiosyncrasy of the old Kenny Belle. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 17, 2009 3:49:29 GMT
Why not just reduce the frequency to every 30 minutes off peak.. on the hour and half past, with just one train running. I.E. Oly a 1253 Oly d 1300 Ect - 1303 1/2 Hsk a 1307 Hsk d 1316 Ect - 1319 1/2 Oly a 1323 Oly d 1330 That is a good enough frequency.. if they can't wait that long they can get the southern/LO and change at West Brompton... since most of them will have to change at Earls Court for a City train or HSK for an Edgware/Circle to get to there destination anyway, they will still make the same amount of changes going via West Brompton. Then in the peak times, they can bring another train out to increase to a 15 minute frequency, or do this double-manning if they wish. Whilst a very sensible suggestion, It would be so pointless as to render the Olympia service an unrealistic proposition...............hang on a minute, perhaps this is where LU is heading with these plans - make the service unviable then they can justifiably stop it altogether... Couldn't the other driver sit with the passengers in the last car until they are needed in the cab? That would never happen - it would not be considered a place of safety, and the Unions would definitely create merry hell if it were ever suggested. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2009 10:11:18 GMT
hang on a minute, perhaps this is where LU is heading with these plans - make the service unviable then they can justifiably stop it altogether... Poor people at Olympia...  |
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Post by happybunny on Jan 17, 2009 10:25:10 GMT
Yes especially after losing there cross country/intercity service
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2009 11:26:11 GMT
I don't think loss of long distance service would affect a lot of people, but District to Olympia is used daily by many people working around there. Lately area around Olympia got settled by large number of new media companies. Granted, I was there only for about a week - but I saw the service well used.
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Post by happybunny on Jan 17, 2009 12:27:19 GMT
But most of the people travelling into the city will have to change at Earls Court anyway. If they sort out the LO service to a decent frequency, there journey will not take any longer by travelling via West Brompton
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jan 17, 2009 12:42:06 GMT
Except for those people travelling to or from places west of Earl's Court.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2009 12:47:55 GMT
The 'Kenny Belle' had a distinction of being the last steam-hauled branch service in London, and was then replaced by SR DEMUs and WR DMMUs. Do you mean the HSK - Earls Court - Olympia LU service or the BR Clapham Junction - Olympia service? If the former, it must have been odd to see steam or diesel trains at Earls Court (very smoky, too, I would have thought! ;D)! |
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Post by 21146 on Jan 17, 2009 15:12:38 GMT
Another reason why uncoupling 'on the road' will never return is the need to remove the ICB furthest from the platform.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 17, 2009 15:17:05 GMT
That's the inter car barriers for those not in the know - and a very good point there 21146........mind you they do break quite spectacularly once you stretch them to about 6 feet, Just ask Solidbond   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jan 17, 2009 18:18:00 GMT
The Kenny Belle, so-called was the Clapham [P16??? judging by photos in steam days], and P1/2 in diesel then electric days, and ran Clapham Junction - Kensington (Olympia). Steam was used, and I think they were latterly retained Standard 5s, until 1967.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2009 18:20:09 GMT
The Kenny Belle, so-called was the Clapham [P16??? judging by photos in steam days], and P1/2 in diesel then electric days, and ran Clapham Junction - Kensington (Olympia). Steam was used, and I think they were latterly retained Standard 5s, until 1967. Ah.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2009 18:57:26 GMT
Another reason why uncoupling 'on the road' will never return is the need to remove the ICB furthest from the platform. Technically they could be removed at Ealing Common before such a train set off, a train is allowed to run passenger with one missing per-side. However it would have to be remembered and you rightly point out is another obstical to the suggestion ! |
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As I've said before on here, the amount of delays at that junction are nothing short of dreadful and something has to be done about it.
