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Post by happybunny on Jan 13, 2009 22:46:15 GMT
I believe from later this year the Olympia service will be one train only, double manned..
I think it would be a better idea to run the service as a 3 car train, this would free up one train for the main service. What could happen is, a driver brings two double ended units (as one train) out of EACDT EB , and runs in service to H/St. At ECT he picks up another driver just booked on for duty. At H/St the trains are divided and the first one leaves for Olympia, the second ECT driver prepares the remaining 3 car train to leave for Olympia later...
There would be very very minimal work required to implement this... dispatch at Oly should be fine as it would be cat B, if they were so fussed they could install a small mirror.. same for HST.
Good idea?? Would be a easy way to free up 6 cars of D Stock for other services.. as the Olympia service is hardly ever full, or anywhere near !
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 13, 2009 23:06:52 GMT
I agree that this would be better than having one 6 car train. If there was only one train, then the service wouldn't run as often, and it would be annoying to just miss one at Earls Court (Olympia is better than West Brompton for connecting with Southern / Overground services towards Willesden or Watford, as it is a cross-platform interchange). It would also be interesting to see 3 car D stock trains on their own, but what would happen when S stock entered service on the District?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2009 23:16:18 GMT
as the Olympia service is hardly ever full, or anywhere near ! Really? In my experience in peak hours all trains get filled to the rim! |
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Post by happybunny on Jan 13, 2009 23:37:01 GMT
Hmm I have often worked the Olympia service through the peak hours, and have yet to witness a train where you wouldn't get a seat.. never mind ' full to the rim'
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 0:05:20 GMT
Normal peak hours don't apply to the Olympias - it's busiest when there's something on at Olympia, so when the beer festival used to be held there it would be busiest at about 10:30pm!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 14, 2009 0:19:08 GMT
Hmm I have often worked the Olympia service through the peak hours, and have yet to witness a train where you wouldn't get a seat.. never mind ' full to the rim' Have you ever worked when the 'Erotica' exhibition has been on?  |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 14, 2009 0:32:56 GMT
I'm not sure what I think about all this. There are currently two six car D stock trains running every 15 mins I guess. They could be made into two 3 car trains. When an exibition service is being run a better service using 6 cars would be better.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 14, 2009 0:42:55 GMT
Are the Olympia trains not often sent elsewhere in case of disruption? (say, to Ealing whilst a train from the East goes to Olympia instead). If so, this would surely reduce such opportunities and tie the hands of the controllers?
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 14, 2009 1:01:37 GMT
That's another problem-loss of flexibility.
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Post by ruislip on Jan 14, 2009 1:20:46 GMT
Isn't uncoupling a relic of the past? I guess the 3 car units would couple up and run to ECT once the day is done.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 1:43:52 GMT
I can't see routine uncoupling making a return - most drivers won't want to do it and I can't see LU wanting us to do it unless absolutely necessary. One train double manned should make the Olympias more interesting for drivers. How long before the first SPAD caused by the driver nattering to his mate on the cab to cab? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 1:55:40 GMT
I think a major issue would be that the morning start up train would need to be specially made up of two double ended units. Remember D stock formations do NOT routinely get made up of two double ended units and for obvious reasons a train incorporating a single ended unit can not be split to run as two trains !
The double ended units would need to be sourced from one east leading train and one west if a complete useable train is to be produced to benefit this plan and whilst some shunting complexity may make this possible there also needs to be some assurance that the relatively random distribution of units at the end of the traffic day leaves appropriate formations in Ealing Common to make up the Olympia special !
In practise I suppose the same two units would then end up semi-permenant fixtures on the service until needed for exam.
Finally, the double ended units are notoriously problematic for uncoupling, since drivers can not get under the train with appropriately positioned crow bars, it is likely that a fair percentage of the time, the train would refuse to uncouple and still leave you with a single train !
I agree a three car unit would cope with numbers, though it could be a pain waiting for runners at the tail end of Earl's Court. It is naughty as it is to divert one of the trains elsewhere, but that option is outrageous if just a single train is being deployed.
However I think the whole plan is daft. The detrainment will delay services from the Wimbledon branch, flexibility is lost as the train can not be routed into either e/b platform. The train must then be routed via platform 3 w/b which is already in heavy demand. Either leave it as it is, or incorporate Olympia trains into the main city service, by ceasing to have them self contained off peak !!
(Edit : I'm assuming a double ended train will reverse at Earl's Court, I'm even more opposed if the one train is still expected to run Olympia - High Street !)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 2:54:47 GMT
Many doubleenders have a dud unit in the middle, the depots normally operate on an out of sight out of mind policy. Double enders have only one compressor working, so would have to be modified to get both working before being able to be worked as a 3 car train.
Agreed, silly idea!
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 14, 2009 7:20:20 GMT
I think the double ending will cause trouble with crewing, unless both drivers stay on the train together. And then what do they do about meal reliefs? Get two drivers to do an hour? Suppose one of them gets delayed? Cancel the train? Reduce it to OPO and then cut the service by 50%?
I think this will cause more trouble than its worth.
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Post by happybunny on Jan 14, 2009 9:21:10 GMT
I think the 3 car train idea, is better than the double-ending idea... alright even if they come out of depot as 3 car, It works fine on the met!
The double ending will cause all kinds of fiddles once people get used to it and DMT's aren't watching it.. i.e. second driver disappears for an hour, first driver runs around changing ends quickly running it on his own, then favour is returned !! etc etc ...
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 14, 2009 9:25:58 GMT
As has been said, uncoupling the train in the morning 'on the road' will cause problems i'm sure!
Then you must leave them uncoupled throughout the day until stabling, as the signalling does not allow you to re-couple.
Where do you stop the train at Earl's Court? Level with the current mirrors? What about the vacant half of the platform, blind persons etc? Would they have to install barriers to 'protect' the unoccupied portion of the platform whilst a 3-car is standing there?!?
Double-ending the AM service for a while would get rid of those 2 horrendous 34-minute gaps in the service now. The one train would reverse quicker, filling the timing gap.
I can't honestly see either proposal, double-ending or 3-cars, being workable.
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Post by happybunny on Jan 14, 2009 9:34:11 GMT
I see the point about blind people etc... but as said this happens on the met and many many other railways around, different sized trains using the same platform, platforms shared with A &C and D&C stocks even.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 14:47:27 GMT
As for double ending again i can see entertainment as train leaves with leading driver but leaves behind the trailing driver and then sits for ever at the turn around whilst driver one reads the paper !
There are also scheduling issues for depots such as Upminster and Barking who do very few Olympia trips, there would need to be plans in place to make sure crews were rostered to drive in both directions on all of the various shift patterns.
I can't belive that timetabled change that produced a massive 30 min gap in the morning peak in order to provide an unnoticeable 1/2min improvement in the Wimbledon service ! I suspect the various monitoring bodies didn't notice that one slipped past them !
I could live with it if the D stock were to be freed up to do something useful, like take over the Rayners Lane / Uxbridge service so the Pic can concentrate on Heathrow, but as it stands I can't see the freed up train is needed for anything !
Pointless tinkering in my view.
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Post by happybunny on Jan 14, 2009 20:22:15 GMT
Especially since there will be an extra ten min (supposedly) running time, that will mean less capacity, and less trains out ! even less need for another spare train
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Post by londonstuff on Jan 14, 2009 22:18:41 GMT
I went to the BETT fair at Olympia today and the train in the evening was as packed as the Vic line. Mind you, having the train there for 15 minutes didn't help!
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Post by happybunny on Jan 14, 2009 22:25:53 GMT
I would bet you were in the very rear carriage.. and I would also bet that the very front carriage or even front 3 were more or less empty !
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 14, 2009 22:34:26 GMT
The double ending will cause all kinds of fiddles once people get used to it and DMT's aren't watching it.. i.e. second driver disappears for an hour, first driver runs around changing ends quickly running it on his own, then favour is returned !! etc etc ... You'd hope that such staff were disciplined; or that the management were astute enough to not let it happen in the first place! Anyway, if the aim is to reduce turnaround times (not free up a train), then surely you can have two trains double manned? I went to the BETT fair at Olympia today and the train in the evening was as packed as the Vic line. Mind you, having the train there for 15 minutes didn't help! Isn't there an enhanced service when there are big events on? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 23:19:54 GMT
Isn't there an enhanced service when there are big events on? No. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Jan 14, 2009 23:28:11 GMT
It would seem silly to run the same service on an average day, as when there's a big event - such as BETT - going on. Although (I don't know the area) the infrastructure at Olympia might not help.
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Post by Chris M on Jan 14, 2009 23:43:19 GMT
AIUI the standard level of service at Olympia is what is needed when there are big events happening. The service at the rest of the time is over provisioned (with the exception of the 30 minute gap mentioned earlier).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 23:54:33 GMT
Didn't the service used to only run during events?
However, Olympia is a NR interchange as well which should mean it is used more.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 1:08:03 GMT
Didn't the service used to only run during events? Yes, but before my time. AFAIK all the NR trains that call at Olympia also call at West Brompton, so I doubt Olympia gets much use as an interchange. |
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Post by Colin on Jan 15, 2009 1:21:40 GMT
I can't belive that timetabled change that produced a massive 30 min gap in the morning peak in order to provide an unnoticeable 1/2min improvement in the Wimbledon service ! I suspect the various monitoring bodies didn't notice that one slipped past them ! It came about following meetings between Putney's conservative MP Justine Greening and the former District line General Manager (BT). I can still remember watching her on TV on election night when, during her victory speech, she said "I'm sort gonna sort out the District line to Wimbledon". I do hope her constituents don't have short memories! It would seem silly to run the same service on an average day, as when there's a big event - such as BETT - going on. Although (I don't know the area) the infrastructure at Olympia might not help. The Olympia branch is single line with just one platform at Olympia, so yes, the infrastructure does indeed dictate the maximum service on offer. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 11:30:53 GMT
With the new Olympia service going to 1 train its going be harder to cover those gaps. As the SC uses one of the Olympia service to divert to one of the branch lines even sometimes both train, also they are used for changeovers for dud trains at Earl's Court with the Olympia going to ECD for changeover. As for uncoupling of a 6 car stock to make 2 cars I dont know how the signalling will work at HSK, 2 x 3 car unit will either come empty from ECD or better still it can come to/from PG 27rd but it have to be a 6 car unit during peek time it be too much of a danger at Earls Court if a 3 car unit came in with the over crowding you have.
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Post by londonstuff on Jan 15, 2009 13:21:44 GMT
What's the technical reason for there being no starting signal at Olympia? Isn't it the only station without one? Or so I recall from the District Driver's Eye DVD.
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