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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2009 18:33:40 GMT
Could somebody explain to me why this is classed as a District line service when its stock and depot are identical to the H&C and Circle Lines? Is it a historical thing or are there operational reasons?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2009 18:40:45 GMT
The drivers for the Edgware Road to Wimbledon service are all District drivers based at Earls Court and Acton Town.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 1, 2009 19:15:41 GMT
.....and yes it is historical. In the days of separate railways the District would terminate a High Street Kensington. When Edgware Road was rebuilt to four platforms by the Met to try and resolve overcrowding on the extension line, the service from Putney/Wimbledon was extended, but only the District ran to Wimbledon as it owned the track on some of the route.
The Wimbleware service has only been run using C stock since 1977. Before that the Q stock and latterly the CO/CP stock operated the service.
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Post by DrOne on Jan 1, 2009 19:36:21 GMT
.....and yes it is historical. In the days of separate railways the District would terminate a High Street Kensington. When Edgware Road was rebuilt to four platforms by the Met to try and resolve overcrowding on the extension line, the service from Putney/Wimbledon was extended, but only the District ran to Wimbledon as it owned the track on some of the route. The extension line being from Edgware Rd - ?
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 1, 2009 19:39:21 GMT
The drivers for the Edgware Road to Wimbledon service are all District drivers based at Earls Court and Acton Town. That doesn't mean it has to be a District line service. LU could have it as a seperate line if they wanted to - the H&C used to be part of the Met.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 1, 2009 20:19:25 GMT
.....and yes it is historical. In the days of separate railways the District would terminate a High Street Kensington. When Edgware Road was rebuilt to four platforms by the Met to try and resolve overcrowding on the extension line, the service from Putney/Wimbledon was extended, but only the District ran to Wimbledon as it owned the track on some of the route. The extension line being from Edgware Rd - ? Yes, it all went pear-shaped! The idea was to dig a new line from Finchley Road to Edgware Road and then join the Circle Line. The plan failed and the Bakerloo was built by the LPTB instead.
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Post by DrOne on Jan 1, 2009 20:34:53 GMT
Oh yes. Wow Baker St jn would have been even busier!
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 1, 2009 20:38:39 GMT
Yes, I think what happened was all for the best.
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Post by citysig on Jan 1, 2009 20:40:28 GMT
That doesn't mean it has to be a District line service. LU could have it as a seperate line if they wanted to - the H&C used to be part of the Met. Well, yes it does really. Regardless of which depot supplies the stock (stock being an asset owned by the infrastructure company and supplied to us, the operating company**) the service is staffed and operated as a separate branch of the District Line. If there was room, then the District could choose to use either the C or D stocks to operate the service as it wished - provided that at the start of the day they were furnished with x number of C stocks and returned the same number at the end. Mind you, some of the C stocks supplied do not return to the H&C overnight - they are outstabled at District locations. The section between High Street Ken and Edgware Road is a bolt on to the purely District section from High Street Ken to Wimbledon, and offers an additional - and valuable - service to the Circle Line on that section. **This is still more or less the case, even though we are all meant to be one big company again.
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 1, 2009 21:01:14 GMT
I meant that LU doesn't have to call it part of the District line, even it it has to use District line staff.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 1, 2009 21:03:35 GMT
There's no point separating it, there would be so much red tape involved. It works fine at the moment imo. It is widely known by most regular travellers that the Wimbleware service is self contained.
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Post by miztert on Jan 1, 2009 23:42:58 GMT
I meant that LU doesn't have to call it part of the District line, even it it has to use District line staff. I think the idea that the 'Wimbleware' service might have its own line identity certainly has quite some merit, and I've thought so for some time. The current arrangement causes some considerable confusion amongst passengers - sure, Wimbleware regulars are likely to have figured it out, but not others. It's instructive, for example, to watch passengers grappling with line diagrams on board District line trains - both the 'proper' District line diagram, and also the fused Circle/H&C/Wimbleware one - and trying to dovetail that with the simpler Tube map diagram. This confusion is also evident with passengers looking at the line diagrams on station platforms.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 1, 2009 23:51:40 GMT
The same could be said of the Circle and Northern Lines, but spliting them removes flexibility. I am against a split in the Northern Line.
Isn't the Wimbleware service shown separately on the LU map including at Earls Court?
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 2, 2009 11:11:17 GMT
The same could be said of the Circle and Northern Lines, but spliting them removes flexibility. I am against a split in the Northern Line. I agree about the Northern, but having the Wimbleware service as a seperate line wouldn't really affect the way it would operate.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 2, 2009 11:14:02 GMT
It may in a few years. With standardised trains there maybe more interworking. Trains will be more easily swapped around.
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Post by citysig on Jan 2, 2009 13:15:25 GMT
I agree about the Northern, but having the Wimbleware service as a seperate line wouldn't really affect the way it would operate. Well, if it were as simple as just calling it another line, then to be honest it probably would work ok. The trouble is, although it's all London Underground, it is made up of several smaller business units - each with their own management and budget to spend. If it was another line, then it would need its own management structure and dedicated staff - which would all have to be paid for. Then would come the costing of this small other line in terms of the tracks it shares. It would be sharing the Circle and would then of course be sharing the District Line. And to be honest, there are not that many trains on the service, so it would be quite a small operation, and time would tell that it would one day be merged back again to save money! If it was kept just on paper, and run by another line, then you would still then have yet another colour of line on the map to confuse the tourists. Whatever the level of "confusion" on the current HSK to Edgware Road bit, they can at least see it is the same colour as the main District Line which it merges with at Earls Court.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 15:45:36 GMT
I think it would help if the C & D stock car diagrams showed the whole of the District Line, a fair bit of confusion seems to be generated by passengers consulting the line diagram and assuming it shows the whole of the line, leaving them to conclude that to get from Fulham Bdy to Victoria, they must change at High Street Kensington ! (R stock used to show all District and Circle til their end, whilst CO/CP used to show both plus the East London, can't remember if they also showed the Met (H&C) bit until their withdrawal.
It would also be useful for C stock District trains that get diverted along the "main" city route. This is another reason in support of not splitting it's identity, at present a C stock train can be diverted to cover a gap on any of the District branches. Even where coverage is theoretically possible, it rarely happens if cross line issues are involved as performance statistics would be affected. ie. I can't say I've heard of a H & C train being diverted at Aldgate East to run to Edgware Road via Victoria to "cover a gap" (as opposed to diverting because of signal problems). or a Whitechapel bound H&C extending to Barking to "cover a gap".
As an aside I don't think the current treatment of the Earl's Court area on the tube map is adequate, in attempting to show the main routings through the area, it gives the impression other routings, that do occur and are timetabled, are impossible. It should settle for all merging into a single green line before and diverging after, as it used to do.
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Post by londonstuff on Jan 3, 2009 17:02:20 GMT
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jan 3, 2009 18:18:35 GMT
My dad does not really like the Tube at all. Whenever we are at Earls Court waiting at platform 4 for a train to Wimbledon, he always says "Make the Edgware Road to Wimbledon service a different line. Call it the, I dunno, Wimbledon Line or something" He also says this whenever trains from platforms 3 and 4 are going to Wimbledon depart Earl's Court simultaneously and the one we are on has to wait for the other to get into West Brompton first.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 3, 2009 19:36:41 GMT
Now why am I not surprised that a Wimbledon branch user suggests that the Wimbleware service be called "the Wimbledon line" ;D ;D ;D The Wimbledon branch is the busiest of the west end branches with something like 60% of westbound punters, but Wimbledon branch users are the absolute worlds worst for thinking they are more important than the other branches - it only has 8 stations, and one of them isn't even LU's! If Wimbledon branch punters think they have it bad, try traveling east of Barking on a regular basis. I can assure you that the Wimbledon branch is treated very highly in the priority stakes when compared with rest of the District line - you've even nicked an Olympia train in morning peak!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 19:59:52 GMT
My dad does not really like the Tube at all. Whenever we are at Earls Court waiting at platform 4 for a train to Wimbledon, he always says "Make the Edgware Road to Wimbledon service a different line. Call it the, I dunno, Wimbledon Line or something" He also says this whenever trains from platforms 3 and 4 are going to Wimbledon depart Earl's Court simultaneously and the one we are on has to wait for the other to get into West Brompton first. This is an interesting one. Is there anywhere else on the system where trains can leave for a destination from either of two platforms and regularly the one that leaves first arrives at the next station second ?
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jan 3, 2009 20:21:35 GMT
Thanks for the replies. I just told him about the replies, and Colin, he disagrees with you on that the Wimbledon branch is given high priority because he said that he twice saw 3 trains in the sidings at Parsons Green at 4pm on a weekday. He doesnt believe in peak and off peak times anymore
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Post by DrOne on Jan 3, 2009 21:12:49 GMT
I wonder what would have happened if the Piccadilly had been routed to Heathrow and Wimbledon instead of the current routes. I'd love to have seen the Wimbledon folk argue their service should take priority over Heathrow!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 22:44:25 GMT
I just told him about the replies, and Colin, he disagrees with you on that the Wimbledon branch is given high priority because he said that he twice saw 3 trains in the sidings at Parsons Green at 4pm on a weekday. Another false assumption by Wimbledon branch users is that if a train goes to Parsons Green it "should" be going to Wimbledon - in fact it could just as easily be a diverted Richmond or Ealing service.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 3, 2009 23:14:53 GMT
Wimbledon gets the best service of all the Western branches. What does Wimbledon get 12-13tph? Ealing/Richmond gets 6tph?
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Post by ruislip on Jan 4, 2009 2:14:29 GMT
I wonder what would have happened if the Piccadilly had been routed to Heathrow and Wimbledon instead of the current routes. I'd love to have seen the Wimbledon folk argue their service should take priority over Heathrow! I'm sure that would have meant a new underground link to connect with the "main" Piccadilly west of Earls Court. Also, would a District Uxbridge branch have continued on to Upminster? In such a scenario, I feel that the Richmond branch would be in the best position to provide service along the western half of the Circle to Edgware Rd.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 11:56:41 GMT
This is an interesting one. Is there anywhere else on the system where trains can leave for a destination from either of two platforms and regularly the one that leaves first arrives at the next station second ? Whilst it does happen, I wouldn't say it happens regularly ! It can equally happen to city bound trains departing from platforms 1 & 2 at Earl's Court. Other places that spring to mind where it is a possibility are Leytonstone w/b, Wembley Park s/b. Harrow on the Hill ? Ignoring things like two Piccadilly line trains one on the fast and one on the local at various locations !
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 4, 2009 13:26:23 GMT
The Wimbledon branch is the busiest of the west end branches with something like 60% of westbound punters, but Wimbledon branch users are the absolute worlds worst for thinking they are more important than the other branches - it only has 8 stations, and one of them isn't even LU's! If it is the busiest, then it is more important, isn't it? The Heathrow branch of the Piccadilly is more important than the Uxbridge branch, and that is not to do with the number of stations, it is because the Heathrow branch is busier than the Uxbridge branch (Heathrow branch has 11 stations, Uxbridge branch has 14).
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 4, 2009 15:37:29 GMT
That dose look like a contradiction doesn't it?! ;D ;D My point was that Wimbledon passengers complain the loudest yet they do get the better service in comparison to the rest of the District's branches (both east and west ends) despite being only a small part of the line. Hope that makes more sense?
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Post by Ben on Jan 4, 2009 15:48:37 GMT
I can agree with aspect about the HOTH service. A southbound fast and slow will arrive in the platform at the same time. The slow wil usually set off first, to be overtaken at Northwick Park by the fast. Regrettably because of signalling the fast will be held outside Wembley Park to let the same slow in first!
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