|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 4, 2008 6:22:11 GMT
The "M" is "two main portions". As far as I can tell, the normal set formation was 4-car main portion plus 1 x 2-car east end portion for a 6-car train and 2 x 2-car east end portions for an 8-car. The east end portions could be added or subtracted as required but could not operate in service because there was no cab at the west end. They were driven from the east end cab in reverse if necessary - e.g. moving from the platform at PG into the sidings.
A train made up of 2 x 4-car main portions (M next to the east end portion) could in theory be uncoupled into two separate 4-car trains in the same way as the Met split a 6-car into 2 x 3-car sets. This brings me to two questions:
Did any of the 4 + 4 sets split into 2 x 4-car sets in service?
and
If the Met was running Whitchapel reversers as 3-car sets, it can't have been O Stock as this was still 2-car units. They must have kept the old stock in service while the new stock was being converted into 3-car units. The trailers only started to arrive in July 1938. Perhaps they ran some O Stock 6-car sets in the peaks?
*got to shower now as I'm off to Manchester for the day*
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 4, 2008 9:58:49 GMT
4 + 4 † 2 x 4 using 1939: ‡ into 8 † 4M: SE - Ealing Broadway train 63, shewn as 8M arriving, † 4M, but formation shewn thereafter as 6 - dropped off 4M, but picked up 2. Train 74 likewise. Similar SO with train 55. SE Train 67 8M arrives Ealing Bdwy 9.57, off EBbwy 10.3, stow ECm 10.8 - 4.39, but comes back as 4 + 2.  *off to do a bit more digging* |
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Oct 4, 2008 11:10:42 GMT
TP, I'd go with you on that. The old 1906 saloon stock must have been kept on until WW2. The normal formation was M-T-DT+DT-T-M spliting into M-T-DT.
The district is a little more complex.....
|
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 4, 2008 11:14:37 GMT
4 + 4 † 2 x 4 using 1939: ‡ into 8 † 4M: SE - Ealing Broadway train 63, shewn as 8M arriving, † 4M, but formation shewn thereafter as 6 - dropped off 4M, but picked up 2. Train 74 likewise. Similar SO with train 55. SE Train 67 8M arrives Ealing Bdwy 9.57, off EBbwy 10.3, stow ECm 10.8 - 4.39, but comes back as 4 + 2. *off to do a bit more digging* Looks like my M theory is way off.?? |
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 4, 2008 11:19:22 GMT
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 4, 2008 14:40:06 GMT
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 4, 2008 16:08:50 GMT
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 4, 2008 16:49:43 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 4, 2008 18:48:27 GMT
4 + 4 † 2 x 4 using 1939: ‡ into 8 † 4M: SE - Ealing Broadway train 63, shewn as 8M arriving, † 4M, but formation shewn thereafter as 6 - dropped off 4M, but picked up 2. Train 74 likewise. Similar SO with train 55. SE Train 67 8M arrives Ealing Bdwy 9.57, off EBbwy 10.3, stow ECm 10.8 - 4.39, but comes back as 4 + 2. *off to do a bit more digging* Looks like my M theory is way off.?? *arrives back from IRO meeting in Manchester; wrings out soaked clothes, fires up computer and sees huge list of downloads* My warmest thanks to you mrfs42 for all the time you have taken to scan and upload the WTT info. This is excellent stuff and really interesting to me. Your analysis above is correct. Looking at the rolling stock working sheet, it shows Sets 63 and 74 doing exactly what you said. One can only surmise that they had too many west end 4-car sets for the service they wanted to operate. On the rolling stock working page there is a note which says two 4-car trains and a 2-car portion must go to EC Dt after 11.14. I wonder if they ran it as a 10-car train. Must now read all of the downloads. |
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 4, 2008 19:31:12 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 4, 2008 20:50:30 GMT
Yes. I think they could have done this. They couldn't do it now because the signalling wouldn't let them. |
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 4, 2008 21:21:29 GMT
From the treasury of your downloads, my first brief review suggests to me that:
F Stock retained its 3+5 formation until the war. I thought it went to 4+4 formation when the traction equipment was modified in the mid-20s. I now suspect it went to the 4+4 formation when air door operation was introduced 1938-9. At some point after this, WTTs should show the change.
Some of the old stock trains ran as 2-cars, 3-cars and 5-cars. They had to operate the 2-car sets with driving trailers.
[edit]
The Met. WTTs show that while the District was operating Metadyne trains as 2x3-cars, the Met. was operating theirs as 3x2 cars. In fact, I think the 1938 WTT shows the District was running its Metadyne Stock with trailers but I need to check this with dates and numbers. See later post. [/edit]
*soon time for bed - more research tomorrow*
|
|
|
|
Post by ribaric on Oct 4, 2008 21:52:56 GMT
Tubeprune, a long shot - Did you ever work for Les Legge and later for LTI?
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 4, 2008 22:28:21 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 5, 2008 6:40:44 GMT
Tubeprune, a long shot - Did you ever work for Les Legge and later for LTI? Indeed I did. Do you know me? Do I know you? |
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 5, 2008 7:13:01 GMT
I'd overlooked the Sunday services - pre-1939 there was some (un)coupling: Note the 8 12.0 †2 Stn at Upminster in WTT 15; looking at the galley there is a § footnote, saying that the detached 2 cars remained at the station until ‡ at 5.48 - making the rash assumption that train 8 coupled up with the bit it left behind earlier. Yes. Interesting train this No. 8. It starts from E Ham Dt as a 4-car, runs to Barking (empty) and then Ealing, where it adds a 2-car, runs as 6-car to Up. then uncouples to a 4-car then runs up and down til 5.48 when it becomes a 6-car at Up. again until it stables at E Ham at 11.33 pm. I remember CX reversers. The crew used to have to be pretty nippy as they had to reverse by going forward over the xover and then shunt back into the WB platform. Bow Road reversers did the same. I suspect some did it from the wrong end, i.e. reverse back over the xover and then drive into the WB. We used to do that at Baker St on reversing Circles. |
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 5, 2008 7:39:49 GMT
WTT 17 shows 4 Metadyne trains made up of 3+3-cars. This means they had trailers. But, the rolling stock records show only two trailers allocated to the District from November 1938. The District had an allocation of 20 x 2-car O Stock sets. Methinks the District must have borrowed Met allocated O Stock trailers. I suspect they may have been delivered to Ealing Common, been inserted into 2-car units there and then "run in" on the District before going to Neasden for Met. work.
These 4 trains were split during the off-peak to work the Putney locals as 3-car sets. I wonder how reliable they were. They only had one Metadyne, one compressor and one MG/battery set so if any one of these went down, it was a push out.
Now, I wonder if the previous WTT shows 6-car "D" trains and what formation they were. The first new trailers are shown as arriving in July 1938. Logic suggests the "D" trains would have been 2-car units before this. Maybe they ran as 2+2+2.
mrfs42, do you have the previous WTT? If so, is a quick look possible?
|
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 5, 2008 7:52:32 GMT
WTT 16 has a misprint on the Upminster uncoupling page where it shows the first uncoupling at 3.58 am. I think this column should be pm.
|
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 5, 2008 8:08:15 GMT
My next question is why doesn't the rolling stock working for Met trains at LIS (WTT 17) match that in WTT 65 Met No 1 section?
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 5, 2008 8:17:00 GMT
Unfortunately, that is my entire stock of District & Picc WTTs pre-1938, until 1946; D&P WTTs of this era are even rarer than Morden & Edgware at the moment.
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 5, 2008 8:35:37 GMT
My next question is why doesn't the rolling stock working for Met trains at LIS (WTT 17) match that in WTT 65 Met No 1 section? I shall take the WTTs away with me and peruse the full workings over lunchtime. At a first guess, if the difference is only a few minutes - using the East Ham time, rather than the arrival time at LIS? |
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Oct 5, 2008 8:45:20 GMT
TP, re the F stock-I thought the 4+4 only came in when the CT were converted to single equipped A end motor cars. This was done at the same time as air door conversion and the scrapping of the District locos in 1939-40? EP conversion took place in 1928-9 I think.
|
|
|
|
Post by ribaric on Oct 5, 2008 9:25:19 GMT
Tubeprune, a long shot - Did you ever work for Les Legge and later for LTI? Indeed I did. Do you know me? Do I know you? Narrowing this down..... Neither Jim "The Destroyer" Whittington nor Roy "Thesbian" Drinkwater would have an interest in railway history, So.... it must be PC? Ribaric is Croatian for "small fish person". I've PM'd you. |
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 5, 2008 12:18:17 GMT
My next question is why doesn't the rolling stock working for Met trains at LIS (WTT 17) match that in WTT 65 Met No 1 section? I shall take the WTTs away with me and peruse the full workings over lunchtime. At a first guess, if the difference is only a few minutes - using the East Ham time, rather than the arrival time at LIS? As an example, look at train 70. The Met RS working says it starts from Hammersmith at 5.38am while the District says it leaves LIS at 6.59am. All the others are different too. I wonder if the DR got an old list. Something else about the DR WTT list of Met trains - Nos 67 and 75 stable at 7.32 and 7.48 respectively and then leave later in the evening at 11.50 and 11.25pm. They are both shown as 4+2 cars. I thought this was O Stock in 6-car all motor car formation. Now I think it was two M Stock trains. The late night departure seems strange though until you read the final note in the Met page against Train 68. It says this leaves LIS at 11.25 for Barking Sdgs. I wonder if they got the wrong numbers. |
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Oct 5, 2008 12:40:19 GMT
The M stock got moved from the H&C service when the O stock had be delivered. I believe the original idea was to have the 4 1/2 M stock trains run with the all O stock, but the addition of trailers changed this all.
I think the M stock ended up running on the Uxbridge-Barking service until they and 3 Q38 stock trains were transfered to the District when all the P stock was delivered!
|
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 5, 2008 13:39:01 GMT
The M stock got moved from the H&C service when the O stock had be delivered. I believe the original idea was to have the 4 1/2 M stock trains run with the all O stock, but the addition of trailers changed this all. I think the M stock ended up running on the Uxbridge-Barking service until they and 3 Q38 stock trains were transfered to the District when all the P stock was delivered! The Uxbridge-Barking service started in July 1939. I think some of the M Stock trains will have survived on the H & C until then. |
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 5, 2008 14:55:51 GMT
As an example, look at train 70. The Met RS working says it starts from Hammersmith at 5.38am while the District says it leaves LIS at 6.59am. All the others are different too. I wonder if the DR got an old list. I've stumbled upon a lot of embedded conundra looking at the two WTTs - a fair bit of my reply is in manuscript and requires some scanning to illustrate points; though there are some areas of agreement in times, set numbers are different and a set starting at LIS doesn't feature in the District RS page but does in the Met RS (under a different identity, of course!) Watch this space.  |
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 5, 2008 15:34:02 GMT
As an example, look at train 70. The Met RS working says it starts from Hammersmith at 5.38am while the District says it leaves LIS at 6.59am. All the others are different too. I wonder if the DR got an old list. I've stumbled upon a lot of embedded conundra looking at the two WTTs - a fair bit of my reply is in manuscript and requires some scanning to illustrate points; though there are some areas of agreement in times, set numbers are different and a set starting at LIS doesn't feature in the District RS page but does in the Met RS (under a different identity, of course!) Watch this space. I found the same. I am not sure of the logic. I'm wondering if the times supplied to the District refer to a previous timetable. I wonder if the train times for Met trains correspond in the Distrit WTT and vice versa. |
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Oct 5, 2008 18:42:52 GMT
There's certainly an interesting set of conundra here - however, I've just hit on something that will help: more in the concluding paragraph. I've not got a clue about the ultimate origin of the discrepancies between WTT 17 and WTT 65, but if we go by the LIS start times in WTT 17 (Mxx being the number in WTT 17): 6.27 M85 = 65/83 District 17, page 19 or Met No 1 65, page 136.34 M73 = 65/84 District 17, page 19 or Met No 1 65, page 137.22 M78 = 65/85 District 17, page 23 or Met No 1 65, page 137.51½ M83 = 65/86 District 17, page 25 or Met No 1 65, page 15I'd initially suspected these were transcription errors, however; hmmm...... Having eliminated M85, M73, M78 from the morning work, nothing exists in WTT 17 for M83/86 on the RS page for Little Ilford. Train M70 is another puzzle; it first appears in District 17, page 19 6.11½ as heading off to New + , this ties in with Met No 1 65, page 13 and its return: District 17, page 22 and Met No 1 65, page 12. Picking up on your earlier comment about 'transfer times' (between the two timetables matching up, they do (as well as identity) - look at M75 in District 17, page 23 and lo! 75 in Met No 1 65, page 13 ;D (Aldgate East 7.12), coming in off the Met and trundling eastwards to Barking. In WTT 17 LIS RS working, train 63 at 7.44 is a bit of an enigma; it is shewn in WTT 65 as taking up full strength working at Hm/ 6.43, then shunting at Barking/ 7.32½ Met No 1 65, page 13 and forming the 7.39½ westbound Met No 1 65, page 14. A curious anomaly, as you say it could perhaps be from an old list. Going back to the WTT 17 LIS workings, train 88 doesn't exist at all  . Doesn't even appear in the Met. Bah! However if you look at the Little Ilford pages Little Ilford Rolling Stock Working, 1939 WTT 18, you'll find that everything virtually matches up - what's a couple of minutes between friends?   |
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Oct 6, 2008 16:42:02 GMT
mrfs42, thanks for all your research.
I think the Met was a little flexible about times for train leaving depots. As long as you got in the platform when you were supposed to, the time the train actually moved in the yard seems to have been flexible. Looking at the No 1 section times and RS working, it just says "Yard" or "Start" for trains ex depot, but the times are departure time from the platform. This will probably account for some of the discrepancies.
|
|
