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Post by pakenhamtrain on Aug 17, 2008 6:10:04 GMT
How are platfroms numbered on LU? Is it that Platfrom 1 or Odd number platfroms are always the "Citybound" platfrom and evens are Outbound? Or do they keep odd numbers in one direction and even numbers the other? Or is there no real system at all?
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Post by Chris M on Aug 17, 2008 10:21:25 GMT
Overall there is no system at all. On sections of line where stations were opened at the same time many of them will use the same numbering system, but this often breaks down at interchange stations. e.g. between Queensway and St Paul's, platform 1 is westbound and platform 2 eastbound, at Bank platform 5 is westbound and 6 eastbound, at Liverpool Street 4 is eastbound and 5 westbound. Most (but not all) stations individually are numbered logically, at surface stations this generally means starting from one side of the station and working to the other. There are exceptions to this, Stratford being a very good example, with the low level station having platforms 2 (NLL arrivals), 1 (NLL depatures), 15 (JLE), 14 (JLE) and 13 (JLE) (looking south), and the high level having 4a (DLR), 4b (DLR), 3 (westbound Central), 4 (disused former DLR), 5 (westbound NR), 6 (eastbound Central), 8 (eastbound NR), 9 (westbound NR), 10 (eastbound NR), 10a (bidirectional NR), 11 (westbound NR), 12 (eastbound NR) and then two replacement platforms for the NLL which I don't think have been numbered yet. The two sides of island platforms are normally numbered consecutively, e.g. at Earl's Court the eastbound island is platforms 1 and 2 and the westbound platforms 3 and 4. Stratford high level has an exception to this as platforms 6 and 8 are on the same island. on stations that are deep level and surface/sub-surface the surface platforms are normally either the lowest numbered platforms or numbered in a different sequence. At the major NR terminal stations the LU platforms are normally numbered separately to the mainline platforms. At Paddington the H&C platforms are numbered 14 (westbound) and 15 (eastbound) as part of the same sequence as the mainline platforms, while the Circle and Bakerloo lines have their own sequence (1 inner rail circle, 2 outer rail, 3 northbound Bakerloo, 4 southbound Bakerloo). At other LU/NR interchange stations there doesn't appear to be any logic whether the same or a different scheme is used, e.g. the Victoria Line platforms at Seven Sisters are 3, 4 and 5 (I presume the mainline station has platforms 1 and 2) while at Walthamstow Central both mainline and LU have platforms 1 and 2. At stations with (sub)surface and deep level platforms, the numbering usually starts with the former. Canada Water is an exception to this this with platforms 1 and 2 for the deep level Jubilee and 3 and 4 for the sub-surface East London Line. At stations with more than one deep level line the platforms might be numbered by line (e.g Kings Cross, 1 inner rail circle, 2 outer rail circle, 3 northbound Victoria, 4 southbound Victoria, 5 southbound Piccadilly, 6 northbound Piccadilly, 7 northbound Northern, 8 southbound Northern), or by direction (e.g. Stockwell, 1 nb Vic, 2 nb Northern, 3 sb Northern, 4 sb Vic). At stations with cross platform interchange between lines, this means that the platforms can be numbered consecutively (e.g. at Stockwell northbound Vic to northbound Northern is platform 1 to platform 2, and southbound northern to southbound Vic is platform 3 to platform 4) or not (e.g. Oxford Circus northbound Vic to northbound Bakerloo is platform 4 to platform 6, southbound Bakerloo to Southbound Vic is platform 3 to platform 5; platforms 1 and 2 are for the westbound and eastbound Central Line respectively). At stations where platforms are arranged vertically, the numbering can start at the bottom (e.g. Chancery Lane) or the top (e.g. St Paul's). At simple two platform stations on the North London Line and GOBLIN, the platforms are often 'numbered' "East" and "West". This means Blackhorse Road station has platforms 1, 2, East and West. The only 'rule' without an exception that I can think of is that where there is a through track with a platform on both sides, the two platforms have different numbers. I can't think of an example where these numbers are not consecutive, but I wouldn't be surpised if there was one! Bay tracks with platforms either side can have 1 number (e.g. Greenford NR bay) or two numbers (e.g. Cockfosters) Almost all this information was taken from CULG - www.davros.org/rail/culg/ - where the "Layout" section of each line guide includes platform numbers.
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Post by Colin on Aug 17, 2008 14:12:52 GMT
In the past, where there was a signal box, platforms were numbered in relation to it with the nearest platform being numbered 1.
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 17, 2008 16:54:30 GMT
In the past, where there was a signal box, platforms were numbered in relation to it with the nearest platform being numbered 1. AHA! I've often wondered if that was the case. *wanders off to look at old Hampstead and CSLR signalling notices*
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Post by Tom on Aug 17, 2008 22:10:15 GMT
There was a Signalling Design Office notice produced which specified the numbering convention during the 30s - Westbounds were 1 and Eastbounds 2, and there were then variations on the theme. Unfortunately I can't lay my hands on the folder of D.O. Notices at work any more...
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Post by ruislip on Aug 17, 2008 23:52:26 GMT
For stations having both subsurface and tube lines, don't the SSL's have the lower numbers because their segments opened way before the tube ones?
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Post by Chris M on Aug 18, 2008 0:46:53 GMT
I would presume so. Renumberings do occur though - e.g. the Victoria Line has lower platform numbers than the Picc and Northern at Kings Cross, and I doubt the Bakerloo platforms at Oxford Circus were numbered 4 and 6 before the Vic arrived. Presumably when such renumberings happen, it is simply felt either logical for sub-surface lines to have the low numbers, or it wasn't worth changing them. This doesn't explain why East London Line doesn't have the low numbers at Canada Water though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 11:17:53 GMT
Where are the platform numbers shown? I thought all the signs said "Northbound" (or whatever).
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Post by Chris M on Aug 18, 2008 12:09:06 GMT
At most stations all the signs directing you to a platform will say "Northbound" or whatever appropriate direction, these are often combined with a platform number. On the platform, hanging signs often give the platform number. Either a traditional hanging metal plates that just give the number, or modern boxy rectangular ones that say things like "District Line Eastbound Platform 1". Terminal stations often make big use of platform numbers Some different examples Cockfosters: Hendon Central: High Street Kensington: Moor Park: Northwood Hills: St John's Wood: Victoria: Click on any photo for a larger version.
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Post by cetacean on Aug 18, 2008 12:13:35 GMT
Here's a question - why are the platform numbers at Angel all on stickers? Have the numbers been swapped or the signs printed incorrectly?
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Post by 21146 on Aug 18, 2008 17:30:38 GMT
Barking's EB District Line platforms are both numbered as "2". I seem to recall Dagenham East (or was it Plaistow?) was numbered as 3, 4 & 5 (bay) well into the 1980s, indicating that the BR platforms had been 1 & 2.
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Post by 21146 on Aug 18, 2008 17:39:39 GMT
Hendon Central: The Hendon Central sign is fascinating as it shows how this sign was installed in the mid-1970s when the Fleet Line was expected to service Cannon Street-Monument. Thus the plate fitted over the Bank station interchange box to delete this. They then had to alter the Fleet Line name to Jubilee Line at Charing Cross in 1979, then delete it again and transfer the interchange to Waterloo in 1999 (though it had not been done when this photo was taken). The fact that the Charing Cross interchange circle has a grey 'tick' shows that this sign was definately made with Fleet Line interchanges included. With Tube Lines' recent refurbishment of Hendon Central this sign may be history by now...
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Post by Colin on Aug 18, 2008 18:12:20 GMT
Barking's EB District Line platforms are both numbered as "2". I dunno what's out there on the ground (can't say I've ever taken the time to really look), but not according to the District line supplement they ain't!! Section B4, titled "Barking: Operation of doors and cross platform interchange - Eastbound platform" talks about the correct sequence of door operation and refers to 'number one platform side' & 'number two platform side'. Also, the line controllers diagram shows platforms 1 & 2.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 18, 2008 20:19:52 GMT
They then had to alter the Fleet Line name to Jubilee Line at Charing Cross in 1979, then delete it again and transfer the interchange to Waterloo in 1999 (though it had not been done when this photo was taken). [...] With Tube Lines' recent refurbishment of Hendon Central this sign may be history by now... I took this photo on the 2nd of April 2007. I've not visited the station since so I can't say whether the sign still exists for certain, but it seems that these signs are not replaced unless there is a very good reason to. The ones at Holland Park which predate the opening of the Jubilee Line, for example, have survived refurbishment (I'll upload the photo later).
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Post by 21146 on Aug 18, 2008 20:32:54 GMT
Barking's EB District Line platforms are both numbered as "2". I dunno what's out there on the ground (can't say I've ever taken the time to really look), but not according to the District line supplement they ain't!! Section B4, titled "Barking: Operation of doors and cross platform interchange - Eastbound platform" talks about the correct sequence of door operation and refers to 'number one platform side' & 'number two platform side'. Also, the line controllers diagram shows platforms 1 & 2. Correct, on a rethink, I meant that the plat. 1 notation was also shared by the LO road. Either way there are more platform faces than numbers at Barking. 1 Gospel Oak bay road 1 EB District (north side) 2 EB District(south side) 3 District bay road 4 Down Main 5 Up Main 6 WB District 7 Down Tilbury 8 Up Tilbury LTS Rail/c2c may have re-signed the station since, but that was the series under NSE when I was DTM at Barking.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 21:06:16 GMT
We have seen all the variations (above).
I was at Angel last Thursday and indeed the platform numbers on the diagrams appear to be stickers, platform 1 being SB and 2 NB. This seems to go against the "general" (emphasises [very] "general") rule of 1 NB/WB and 2 SB/EB. I had two separate platform numbering systems in different documents for Angel, so it looks as though a mistake could have been made here in the past.
On the West Ruislip branch of the Central, all stations follow the general principle of 1 WB and 2 EB except for Greenford, of course, with its bay platform - 1 WB, 2 bay, 3 EB and, more surprisingly, Ruislip Gardens, which has 2 WB and 1 EB !!
Some years ago (15-20 years ago?) some platforms at the east end of the Piccadilly Line didn't have any platform numbers at all, just eastbound/westbound (or sometimes "incorrectly" southbound/northbound). It was probably the fall out from the King's Cross fire that ensured that all platforms were identifiable by number (or letter in the case of New Cross ELL).
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 18, 2008 21:21:18 GMT
Interesting point Reg.
Are all platforms on the Northern line numbered 1 for the N/B, 2 for the S/B? [EXCEPT Angel and interchanges]
When I worked on Camden group [has seven stations] I kept forgetting about the Angel anomaly. Prior to the rebuilding, were Angel's platforms the opposite of what they are now?
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Post by Oracle on Aug 18, 2008 21:47:54 GMT
Hounslow West, when a terminus (oh glory days!) had Platforms 3, 2 and 1 from left to right facing EB. There was a FIRST TRAIN OUT indicator with arrow, although in practice you looked to see which platform had the green starter!
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 18, 2008 22:33:06 GMT
Interesting point Reg. Are all platforms on the Northern line numbered 1 for the N/B, 2 for the S/B? [EXCEPT Angel and interchanges] Yes; sort of. Depends if you count East Finchley as an interchange - as the two NB platforms are 1/2, S/B being 3/4. The preeminence of the N/B is maintained even between South Kentish Town and Tufnell Park. To a certain extent the platform numbering on the Northern follows the numbering of the roads - discounting Road 16 at Edgware (but as that is the last survivor of that fan, the number is I think retained more for historical reasons than anything else.); and discounting depot road numbering - think of High Barnet with roads going 21, 22, 23, 34, 35, 36, 24, 25, 26, 27 and so on. In the most general of terms the Nortbound road where it is the 'westernmost' is platform 1 and road 21. Excluding interchanges the exception to this rule is Morden, where the 'easternmost' platform is 1, and the platform numbering goes the opposite way across the station. Looking south at Morden you would see platform 1, road 41, platform 2, platform 3, road 42, platform 4, platform 5 road 43. Road numbering is another branch of esoterica altogether - we'll not go into it except to mention in passing two things 1. that the two reversing roads at Seven Sisters are numbered in the Northumberland Park series - exceptionally for a tube line continuing the series controlled by another IMR VN vice VL. 2 the opening perils for various extensions and depots make interesting reading when you look at the grouping of the road numbers: Park Junction, the various yards/depots lurking around the eastern end of the Central and West Ruislip spring to mind. With enough time and diligent thought the majority of layouts for the 'Northern Heights' could be reconstructed, even down a damn good guess at the signal numbering. When I worked on Camden group [has seven stations] I kept forgetting about the Angel anomaly. Prior to the rebuilding, were Angel's platforms the opposite of what they are now? I'm not sure, but were they definately numbered post-Fennel and pre-rebuilding? They weren't numbered in CSLR days - citing Euston (as an apposite example) the instructions for reversers only used NP or SP (north- or south- bound platforms, when they weren't reversing south via a layover in the siding) rather than non-existant platform numbers.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 18, 2008 23:10:33 GMT
According to the CULG layout diagrams (and I do not know how reliable this information is) all stations on the Northern Line have platform 1 for northbound and platform 2 as southbound, except: Golders Green: 1 and 2 North, 3 and 4 bidirectional, 5 South Camden Town: 1 and 3 North, 2 and 4 South Tottenham Ct Rd: 3 North 4 South Leicester Square: 3 South 4 North Charing Cross: 5 North 6 South Kennington: 1 and 3 North, 2 and 4 South Stockwell: 2 North, 3 South Morden: 1 and 2 South, 3 -5 North Finchey Central: 1 and 2 North, 3 South East Finchley: 1 and 2 North, 3 and 4 South Euston (Bank branch): 3 North, 6 South Kings Cross: 7 North, 8 South Angel: 1 South, 2 North Moorgate: 7 North, 8 South Bank: 3 South, 4 North
So, the stations the disobey the general rule of the northbound platform(s) getting the lowest number(s) are: Angel, Bank, Leicester Square and Morden.
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 18, 2008 23:39:37 GMT
Thanks for the replies after my previous post, it is appreciated.
So, as I suspected, Angel is the odd one out on the Northern, if you discount, termini, interchanges and the like.
Hmm, interesting.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 18, 2008 23:45:37 GMT
Central Line stations have westbound as the lowest platform number, except (again according to CULG) Notting Hill Gate and Liverpool Street. At Woodford, platform 1 is the bay road with the westbound being platform 2 and the eastbound platform 3. On the Hainault Loop, platform 1 is for the Outer Rail between Wanstead and Hainault, and for the inner rail between Grange Hill and Roding Valley.
On the Jubilee, westbound/northbound gets the lowest platform number in all cases. At Stanmore the platforms are (from west to east) 3, 1, 2. At Stratford, from (west to east) they are 13, 14, 15.
On the Met, westbound/northbound gets the lowest platform number, except between Farringdon and Aldgate where it is reversed.
On the Circle, the outer rail gets the lowest number between Farringdon and Gloucester Road via Aldgate, at Edgware Road and at Baker Street. The inner rail gets the lowest number between High Street Kensington and Paddington, and between Kings Cross and Great Portland Street.
On the Hammersmith and City Line there is no apparent pattern, with eastbound getting the low numbers between Hammersmith and Ladbroke Grove (except Wood Lane), Edgware Road and Baker Street, Farringdon to Whitechappel (except Aldgate East), and at Barking. The westbound has the low numbers at Wood Lane, Westborne Park to Paddington, Great Portland Street to Kings Cross, Aldgate East and Stepney Green to East Ham.
On The Bakerloo, the northbound gets the low numbers at: Harrow and Wealdstone, Wembley Central, Kilburn Park to Marylebone, Regents Park, and Piccadilly Circus to Elephant and Castle. The southbound gets the low numbers at: Kenton to Queen's Park (except Wembley Central), Baker Street and Oxford Circus.
On the Distrcit, the westbound gets the low numbers except at Earl's Court, Whitechapel, Barking, Kew Gardens, Putney Bridge to Wimbledon and Edgware Road.
On the Piccadilly, the westbound gets the low numbers except at South Ealing, Earl's Court, Piccadilly Circus, King's Cross and Oakwood, although platform numbers are not apparently used at Sudbury Town or Turnpike Lane.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 18, 2008 23:53:57 GMT
On the Victoria Line, the northbound gets the low numbers at all stations except Oxford Circus.
On the Waterloo and City, the westbound at Bank is 7 and the eastbound 8; at Waterloo the situation is reversed with the westbound being 26 and the eastbound 25.
On the East London Line at the time of closure, northbound got the low numbers except at Canada Water.
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 18, 2008 23:58:19 GMT
Sudbury Town or Turnpike Lane. Turnpike Lane EB = 1, WB = 2; Sudbury Town WB = 1, EB = 2. Perhaps worth commenting that the platform numbers 14 and 15 for Paddington <spit> Suburban have been in use in Metropolitan WTTs since just after the change back to portrait WTTs in the 50s. Platform numbers on the Met 'Branch' have been used since the 30s in WTTs.
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 19, 2008 0:07:46 GMT
On the Victoria Line, the northbound gets the low numbers at all stations except Oxford Circus. Ah, well at Oxford Circus platforms 1/2 *are* the lowest! ;D Descending into the bowels of the earth you've got: topmost: 5/6 SB/NB Victoria middle: 3/4 SB/NB Lakerboo deepest: 1/2 WB/EB Central
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Post by Chris M on Aug 19, 2008 0:33:24 GMT
Not quite, there is cross-platform interchange between the NB Bakerloo and Victoria, and between the southbound Bakerloo and Victoria. The 3D plan of the station on seehowtheyrun shows all four of these platforms to be on the same level, above the Central Line.
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Post by ruislip on Aug 19, 2008 2:08:20 GMT
High Street Kensington: Are those signs still prevalent across the system? I remember them from my years in the Capital in the early-mid 70s.
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Post by 21146 on Aug 19, 2008 11:04:04 GMT
Some years ago (15-20 years ago?) some platforms at the east end of the Piccadilly Line didn't have any platform numbers at all, just eastbound/westbound (or sometimes "incorrectly" southbound/northbound). Some of the "NB/SB" signs still remain. www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2626363406/sizes/l/
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Post by Chris M on Aug 19, 2008 11:59:18 GMT
Are those signs still prevalent across the system? I remember them from my years in the Capital in the early-mid 70s. From memory they are still at Baker Street (met) and Finchely Road as well as HSK (where the photo above is from). I can't recall off the top of my head anywhere else they are, but I've never specifically looked.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 19, 2008 12:09:47 GMT
As promised here are the signs from Holland Park. It's clear these date from after the opening of the Victoria Line but predate the opening of the Jubilee. There is the sticker for the Docklands at Bank but for the JLE or DLR at Stratford. The photo was taken on the 11th of January 2007. (click for a larger version)
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