Circles to Go

Ive been working on modeling a scenario whereby the section of line from Pread Street Junction to Edgware Road is made bi-di on both tracks, thus allowing two trains to arrive from the west, and a few other non conflicting moves. Its a very primative model (making use of the auto control feature on Trainz) but it seems to add a bit more flexibility, if indeed it increases the signalmans work at the station! With a smart automated system in place (ATO) presumably it would work a lot better though.

Is there any serious mileage in this idea?

I'd be interested to see how they intend to get any of the Edgware Road drivers to move to Hammersmith. People have been there and done that and the exodus of Hammersmith drivers back to Edgware Road is telling.

Surely Baker Street re-opening would make the most sense if we have to stable these new trains at Neasden. It would wash a lot better with the current Edgware Road drivers who come in from "the north" to Kings Cross and Euston on the BR.

I also heard word a while back of a depot opening at Aldgate. Has that idea been put to bed?

Would that effectively create single line running between Edgware Rd and each of the Paddingtons? Each line would need to comfortably cope with at least 24tph bi-di in that case, no? Outer rail island would have 12tph - from Hammersmith and 12tph to Hamersmith. Inner rail would have 12tph to HSK and 12tph from HSK.

I wonder how workable this is to those in the know?

Hmmm, the amount of discussion here tends to suggest we, as fairly knowledgeable on the subject, are less than convinced it will work as set out.

I think it was the most daft of all the suggested route improvements.
(Extending the Met to Barking was the most sensible, even with A stock I can't see there would be many, if any, gauging issues)

So what is the point of it all, leaving it as it is seems better than the proposed tinkering !

If the point, and the only point I can see to it, is, increasing the frequency to Hammersmith as far as I can see this can only be done at the expense of something, a general frequency reduction for other sections (from x8.5mins to x10mins) is not really the way forward in my view ! Reducing the frequency of the Wimbledon - Edgware Road service seems a total non-starter, unless more D stock will run there, but I don't see where that will be diverted from, I suppose a Wimbledon - High Street shuttle with (otherwise inter-peak stabled) D's would be possible. (in practice some Ealing's would do it, the Wimbledon's are better as through Upminster's)

The Hammersmith branch is vunerable with no reversing points and the layovers there are the only real recovery time for the line this would have to reduce if the frequency was upped from every 8 mins to every 5.

Far too much reversing at Edgware Road will be disasterous.

I agree with most of an earlier suggestion the only way to change the service pattern is to run (for the most part)

Hammersmith - Outer Rail - Edgware Road
Edgware Road - Inner Rail - Hammersmith
Wimbledon - Plaistow / Barking Sidings via Kings Cross.
with a limited supplementary shuttle Hammersmith - Edgware Road.

I'd say either a whole re-vamp with the Met/District/Pic should be done (including recasting what routes crews were trained upon) or leave the lot alone !

I'd leave it ALL as it is!

Having Edgware Road as a revesing point for two services is very dangerous. I don't mind every other Wimbledon train short working to HSK, but would would the service between HSK and Edgware Road be? That section will get a raw deal anyway as a change at Edgware Road will be manditory.

A great solution would be to extend the Wimblewares to Moorgate (Wimblegate!) but I fear the Baker St-Moorgate section is already too busy!

The final option is to have more H&C trains. The only real plus point I can see is that the Hammersmith branch gets (and needs) a better service-run more trains! There are two points to consider with this however:
-Uxbridge service kept at 6tph not the 10tph as suggested.
-Whitechapel kept as a reversing point.
-H&C service runs every 5 minutes (every 10 mins to Barking).
-Circle Line and Wimbleware remains as is.

Chris, I'm surpised they didn't put a x-over at the new Wood Lane station!

....because we are trying to make progress!

This sounds like a much more sensible idea than the teacup. It means that the Wimbleware can maintain a good frequency, and the pressure on Praed St Junction and Edgware Rd is not increased significantly.

Was there an issue with long driving times when the panhandle was tested?

If there was a signal failure or closure on the lower half of the circle, then the panhandle trains could just skip the lower half and run as an existing Hammersmith & City. The resulting early arrival at the termini would just result in the trains having to be stored in the depot at Barking, or in a spare platform or depot at Hammersmith.

That's not true at all!

Trains can be diverted to Moorgate or Hammersmith andback to Edgware Road for their own working or as you say, can be refomed, though on the Circle you can reform up all 7 each side (if the pick ups or spares are available) and don't even have to turn a single train or just by doing as many as you can!

And I bet you that on this new service that if a train is running late, it wil just be sent to Hammersmith for its next trip!

The panhandle doesn't improve frequency on the Hammersmith branch though. Which is something you can't do without increasing traffic over Praed Street junction or reducing the service from the HSK direction.

How busy is the Hammersmith and City line between Paddington and Hammersmith? Are these extra trains needed now with the new station opening up and the massive shopping centre in Shepherd's Bush?

Ah - that was S*******n, yes?

With sufficient trains and crews, at 8 min headways, then up to around 20mins dwell time at Hammersmith could be timetabled, and possibly even more at Barking. Of course this would be a huge waste of resources, and wouldn't only get the train back on time for its next run rather than the run it's on.

That sounds simple enough until you find all of your trains are running early and you don't have the correct drivers available (for instance, all the trains were due relief at their correct time.)

This can then lead you to have a very large gap until the drivers become available. Missing out the Circle part of the trip could mean a train is running an hour early!

You could of course run the train somewhere else to lose the early running, but where?



And as you know, diverting a train, short-tripping a train or even reformations, all give you a technically cancelled train. During the course of an average day, these "cancellations" far outnumber the combined cancellations on the Met, H&C and District.

Indeed it was. A man who never shied away from airing his views and rants on the radio.