metman
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Post by metman on Jul 1, 2008 17:06:11 GMT
A stock can't run to Barking because of Gauging issues, and there would need to be alot of modifications at Tower Hill!!!
On a personal note I like the idea of reversing every other Wimbleware at HSK. It lightens the load at Edgware Road!
Perhaps if there were 4 tracks between Edgware Road and Pread St junction (sadly too expensive) there wouldn't be all these problems!!!
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jul 1, 2008 18:08:45 GMT
A stock can't run to Barking Since the photo that I published in UNDERGROUND was taken in the late 1970s of A stock in Barking Sidings for training purposes, have there been works to restrict running to Barking? |
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Post by ruislip on Jul 1, 2008 18:34:14 GMT
On a personal note I like the idea of reversing every other Wimbleware at HSK. It lightens the load at Edgware Road! How would that affect the District's "shuttle" between Olympia and HSK? |
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Post by ruislip on Jul 1, 2008 18:36:14 GMT
As I have mentioned on another thread, this seems best and least confusing (to travellers) method in my opinion (without need of a tea cup service) SEE HEREServices however are tricky. 6 tph Ealing Broadway - Upminster (D78) 6 tph Richmond - Upminster (D78) 6 tph Wimbledon - Upminster (D78) 6+* tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road (C) 6+* tph Tower Hill – Edgware Road (C) 4 tph Kensington (Olympia) - High Street Kensington (D78) Would there still be 6tph Uxbridge-Aldgate/Barking? What about frequencies for H&C trains? |
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Post by Alight on Jul 1, 2008 18:38:07 GMT
A stock can't run to Barking because of Gauging issues, and there would need to be alot of modifications at Tower Hill!!! On a personal note I like the idea of reversing every other Wimbleware at HSK. It lightens the load at Edgware Road! Hey, Havn't you seen the proposals to switch the H&C with Met when it comes to Barking - hence the reason why I showed the met to Barking. If it is a problem, then Tower Hill can be modified - yes with great difficulty but hey extending the Jubilee was difficult!!  Moreover, they wouldn't need to reverse at HSK? They would run along the circle line tracks to Tower Hill hence the C Stock. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 1, 2008 19:07:08 GMT
The Met to Barking scheme has been dropped. The current finacial climate will dictate that no major building work will happen, especially at Tower Hill. The reversing facilities at Tower Hill would be rubbish, even if the middle road could become a through road!
The Met will run as now, the H&C will run as normal. The Circle will be modified as suggested. The Olympia service would run as normal every 15 minutes using 2 trains. The Wimbleware trains would rotate HSK and Edgware Rd. The Olympia service would use platform 4 and the Wimbledon trains would use platform 3.
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Post by Alight on Jul 1, 2008 20:06:00 GMT
O okay I hadn't noticed! |
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Post by c5 on Jul 1, 2008 21:37:39 GMT
As I have mentioned on another thread, this seems best and least confusing (to travellers) method in my opinion (without need of a tea cup service) SEE HEREServices however are tricky. 6 tph Ealing Broadway - Upminster (D78) 6 tph Richmond - Upminster (D78) 6 tph Wimbledon - Upminster (D78) 6+* tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road (C) 6+* tph Tower Hill – Edgware Road (C) 4 tph Kensington (Olympia) - High Street Kensington (D78) Would there still be 6tph Uxbridge-Aldgate/Barking? What about frequencies for H&C trains? The current advertised service on the H&C and Circle is a train every 8.5 mins. The service frequency on the Hammersmith branch does need to be increased though. The Hammersmith and Circle line is the best way of doing it. The only pain would be changing trains at Edgware Road. At least there might be more trains then...  As I have mentioned on another thread, this seems best and least confusing (to travellers) method in my opinion (without need of a tea cup service) SEE HEREServices however are tricky. 6 tph Ealing Broadway - Upminster (D78) 6 tph Richmond - Upminster (D78) 6 tph Wimbledon - Upminster (D78) 6+* tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road (C) 6+* tph Tower Hill – Edgware Road (C) 4 tph Kensington (Olympia) - High Street Kensington (D78) * more trains due to more C stock avalible. The method will also increase Upminster services by an extra 6 trains from Ealing Broadway to make space for terminating C stocks at Tower Hill from Edgware Road. A further alternative (if shortage of A stock) is to terminate Metropolitan at Tower Hill (modification needed of course) and then H&C can run to Barking instead. Diagram edited to a link because size of image was far bigger than forum limits (and was distorting page). Reminder that images are 800x500pxl maxTrouble there is that on some shutdowns the D stocks would end up at the east end! That's why they have the off peak Ealings and peak Wimbledons going round at Tower Hill. And what about trains going from Tower Hill to Aldgate? And modifications for any stock to reverse at Tower Hill W->E would require a lot of re-signalling... Hey, Havn't you seen the proposals to switch the H&C with Met when it comes to Barking - hence the reason why I showed the met to Barking. If it is a problem, then Tower Hill can be modified - yes with great difficulty but hey extending the Jubilee was difficult!! The Met to Barking thing isn't happening. |
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Post by 21146 on Jul 1, 2008 21:59:47 GMT
A Stock ran to Barking Sidings in the 1970s to stock-train Barking (Met) crews for the ELL. What's really changed in the meantime? The SSL resignalling/train replacement programmes allow a once in 40-50 years chance to recast services and possibly provide new links. Is this chance going to be seized by LU or are we just continuing with the 1941 timetable pattern? (Minus the District to Hounslow and north side of Circle.)
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Post by Alight on Jul 2, 2008 13:24:07 GMT
Bananaman, I hope you understand that on of the key aims of my route was to actually prove the point that the circle line is only needed in two points: Aldgate - Tower Hill; Gloucester Road-HSK. So I therefore tried to think of a way of cutting out the circle by letting the met extend to Tower Hill (just one stop and yes I know there are going to be difficulties but I am not fully experienced at signals) and district can run along circle line tracks at other end or better stiill just make customers change at Earls Court! I had absolutely no idea they had abandoned the idea of the Met to Barking to be honest as Dave's SSL upgrade section hasn't been updated for a while. Furthermore I do apologise for the large image - I tried to edit it but photo bucket kept on crashing. Alex (Dont worry this wasn't a moany post at all!) |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jul 2, 2008 14:41:33 GMT
Furthermore I do apologise for the large image - I tried to edit it but photo bucket kept on crashing. You're by no means the first! The only way I've found to get images the right size is to do it first on your PC with PicManager/Photoshop or whatever you use, then upload the finished (small) image as well as the original if needed!! Photobucket's tools DO tend to be a bit temperamental! |
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 2, 2008 15:22:54 GMT
The Olympia service would use platform 4 and the Wimbledon trains would use platform 3. But you won't be able to run across the platform onto the shuttle when you have got the wrong train! Also, why not have Edgware Road to Wimbledon as a separate line, instead of it being part of the District? The same thing happened with the Circle and H&C, that used to be part of the Met. |
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Post by Alight on Jul 2, 2008 16:38:39 GMT
Back to reality - does anyone know what the name of the whole "T-cup" service will be? And also, just as a thought, (what have you told me about thinking  ), surely the H&C could run an unchanged route - Hammersmith to Barking - and the metropolitan will extend from Aldgate all the way around to Edgware Road, because after all the S Stock should make this possible? I think this would be less confusing as it would mean the H&C doesn't pass through Edgware Road twice (once from Hammersmith and 2nd through termination). *Phil: absolutely photobucket tried to be all cool with their latest editing features but don't seem to be very reliable at all!* |
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Post by Chris M on Jul 2, 2008 17:05:26 GMT
Would the longer Met trains fit into the platforms between Notting Hill Gate and Edgware Road?
Regarding the name of the t-cup service, I've seen "Hammersmith and Circle" suggested somewhere.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 2, 2008 18:16:54 GMT
The stations are ony being lengthened to 7 cars, if atall. With walkthrough gangways I dont see why extreme SDO can't be inplemented though...
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 3, 2008 0:25:41 GMT
Back to reality - does anyone know what the name of the whole "T-cup" service will be? I have seen a provisional in car diagram - it was titled "Circle line". I kid you not - though whether it's been changed since I do not know. |
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Post by Alight on Jul 3, 2008 10:59:37 GMT
Regarding the name of the t-cup service, I've seen "Hammersmith and Circle" suggested somewhere. Or "Circle and Hammersmith" as the Northern Line announcer calls it - as if the lines are all as one. And Colin, wasn't it going to be called the Spiral route at some point? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2008 11:50:42 GMT
I have read that Frank Pick wanted to end the Circle service in the 1930s but had legal advice that legislation authorising completion of the Circle required that the service be run.
Has there been a change in the legislation?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 3, 2008 14:11:14 GMT
And Colin, wasn't it going to be called the Spiral route at some point? First I've heard of that - my reply was based an actual line car diagram produced for Bombardier so that they would know what sort of space was required inside the S stock. Has there been a change in the legislation? Rather than a change in legislation, I've always thought that rail companies couldn't remove a route without proving it is justified or providing some form of alternative (ie, permanent rail replacement bus service)  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2008 19:20:57 GMT
Although each line was authorised by its own Act, so in theory they could be different, I think the general pattern was to require a service to all stations provided for by the Act.
However, that didn't have to be a through service, so I don't expect forcing passengers to change at Edgware Road for stations to/from South Ken will have any legal implications.
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 3, 2008 20:35:08 GMT
Back to reality - does anyone know what the name of the whole "T-cup" service will be? I have seen a provisional in car diagram - it was titled "Circle line". I kid you not - though whether it's been changed since I do not know. I think that they will either call it Circle or Hammersmith & Circle, but that would be a problem as there would be two H&Cs! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2008 20:49:10 GMT
I have read that Frank Pick wanted to end the Circle service in the 1930s but had legal advice that legislation authorising completion of the Circle required that the service be run. Has there been a change in the legislation? According to "A History of London Transport" by Barker & Robbins (note 5 to Chapter 16, Vol II), there was a requirement to run a continuous Circle service in S89 of the Metropolitan and District Railways (City lines and Extensions) Act of 1879, which was removed by S 105 of the London passenger Transport Act 1934 . AIUI this repeal was in preparation for a proposed 'loop the loop' service from Hammersmith (H&C) to Barking via Victoria (and King's Cross twice), in the early days of the LPTB, which never came about. But alternatively, when the question was asked in the RCTS query section (in the year 2000): So, either way a continuous Circle service isn't legally required. What would require approval is any (permanent total) withdrawal of passenger services over any section of line, which (AIUI) is not being suggested. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2008 15:05:20 GMT
Regarding the name of the t-cup service, I've seen "Hammersmith and Circle" suggested somewhere. Or "Circle and Hammersmith" as the Northern Line announcer calls it - as if the lines are all as one. Circle & Hammersmith line was the official line name before re merger with the Met line. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2008 18:58:03 GMT
I have seen a provisional in car diagram - it was titled "Circle line". I kid you not - though whether it's been changed since I do not know. I think that they will either call it Circle or Hammersmith & Circle, but that would be a problem as there would be two H&Cs! Circle & Hammersmith I would guess, makes sense anyway. C&H  |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 4, 2008 19:54:14 GMT
The notice about the introduction of C stock in 1970 uses the title 'Hammersmith and Circle' - guess who's doing some cataloguing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2008 20:04:53 GMT
The notice about the introduction of C stock in 1970 uses the title 'Hammersmith and Circle' - guess who's doing some cataloguing. Mrfs, if you check through your working timetable collection you will see that from the early to mid 1990's the Circle/ H&C timetables list the line as the Circle & Hammersmith line. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 4, 2008 20:07:50 GMT
The notice about the introduction of C stock in 1970 uses the title 'Hammersmith and Circle' - guess who's doing some cataloguing. Mrfs, if you check through your working timetable collection you will see that from the early to mid 1990's the Circle/ H&C timetables list the line as the Circle & Hammersmith line. Yeah - I *knew*; I was just saying that the 'C&H' usage goes back 38 years! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2008 9:26:26 GMT
If they get rid of the Circle they will rue the day. The majority of non-Londoners and a lot of Londoners struggle to work it out now. Adding to the confusion will make it worse. With the inevitable late running etc trains will still have to be turned short and diverted anyway.
I'm sure the powers that be think they know best but it's been tried before.
I'll resurrect this thread in 5 years time to say "i told you so!" ;-)
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 5, 2008 9:34:32 GMT
Yes, I agree!
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Post by tubeprune on Jul 5, 2008 19:50:17 GMT
I have read that Frank Pick wanted to end the Circle service in the 1930s but had legal advice that legislation authorising completion of the Circle required that the service be run. As soon as the LPTB took over the Met. in 1934, they began looking at ways of getting rid of the Circle. The surface lines were to become one system with all electric trains able to go anywhere. I once had a report which described various possible scenarios including Wimbledon to Uxbridge via Aldgate. The idea fell down because: - crew training would be a nightmare if everyone had to go everywhere; - if not, reliefs after delays would affect the whole system even more than they do now; - stock utilisation would be a nightmare to control; - stock training would be a nightmare and how would you keep in training? There were some tentative steps. At least one timetable had District Q Stock working on the branch around 1938. I wonder if our WTT guru (calling mrfs42) knows which one. I wonder if there were any yellow perils for it. |
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), surely the H&C could run an unchanged route - Hammersmith to Barking - and the metropolitan will extend from Aldgate all the way around to Edgware Road, because after all the S Stock should make this possible? I think this would be less confusing as it would mean the H&C doesn't pass through Edgware Road twice (once from Hammersmith and 2nd through termination).
