a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jun 22, 2008 14:16:46 GMT
I think to begin with, there was 2 bay platforms and 2 through platforms. I have a link: www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Go on misc tube &, scroll down, you'll see the abandoned platform. If anyone has any memories of it please do post them.
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jun 22, 2008 14:29:13 GMT
Oh yeh thanks Some good photos there Uzair
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2008 14:51:31 GMT
that is where the IMR is down the bottom of that tunnel
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Post by stanmorek on Jun 22, 2008 15:17:00 GMT
Mansion House was originally the terminus for the MDR extension.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2008 18:57:20 GMT
The photo is the second bay which was behind the back of the inner rail platform. WTT 89 Sep 1964 showed it was used mostly between the peaks when the Ealing service ran at 8" intervals and turned at Mansion House using both bays. During the peaks the Ealing service ran through to the east and alternate Wimbledons turned at Mansion House, only one bay required. To access the removed one would be awkward as it was a similar layout as Liverpool St bay and not easy with an intensive service to depart.
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Post by 21146 on Jun 22, 2008 22:27:03 GMT
The photo is the second bay which was behind the back of the inner rail platform. WTT 89 Sep 1964 showed it was used mostly between the peaks when the Ealing service ran at 8" intervals and turned at Mansion House using both bays. During the peaks the Ealing service ran through to the east and alternate Wimbledons turned at Mansion House, only one bay required. To access the removed one would be awkward as it was a similar layout as Liverpool St bay and not easy with an intensive service to depart. I vaugely remember in late-70s there was a room built on the trackbed of the northern (disused) bay. I seem to recall it had a sort of "in case of emergency..inform Bus Controller" notice whom I believe were based at Mansion House station then.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 23, 2008 6:14:06 GMT
that is where the IMR is down the bottom of that tunnel Mansion House is a very interesting site, I did a bit of work there in the late 1980s during the modernisation and rebuilding and another stint in the 1990s when I cabled the tunnel telephones in pyro all the way from the T/T relay room which can be accessed at track level by climbing up through the pump rooms to the substation corridor which is usually accessed via the basement of the office block above the station from the street at the side of the station. The pyro came in 100 metre lengths and the longest run was at least 200 metres as I recall, it took a bit of dressing! Like many old District and Metropolitan stations there are many nooks and crannies at Mansion House, the old T/T room was in the disused area at the back of the platform which today still houses the main cable route through the station, very similar in fact to the well hidden route behind the inner rail platform at Embankment.
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Post by ruislip on Jun 23, 2008 16:32:18 GMT
WTT 89 Sep 1964 showed it was used mostly between the peaks when the Ealing service ran at 8" intervals and turned at Mansion House using both bays. During the peaks the Ealing service ran through to the east and alternate Wimbledons turned at Mansion House, only one bay required. To access the removed one would be awkward as it was a similar layout as Liverpool St bay and not easy with an intensive service to depart. Is it safe to say that regular Mansion House and Charing Cross (now Embankment) reversing stopped in early 1967, when the "new" Tower Hill station opened?
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jun 23, 2008 18:07:44 GMT
If you can source any photos or, links to photos please do post them.
If anyone knows the average intervals turn-back frequencies for Mansion House at the moment please post them.
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Post by happybunny on Jun 23, 2008 18:15:54 GMT
There is very few trains scheduled to reverse at Mansion House these days, in fact only a few in the early morning I believe ...
It is used quite frequently though, mainly for Tower Hill services running 10 or more minutes late
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jun 23, 2008 18:21:51 GMT
Tower Hill can't handle all trains, can it? I think I saw the old railway entrance to the old bay platform on the "East London & District" driver's eye view. If you have the DVD I suggest you examine the footage carefully coming in to Mansion House, I saw a peachy orange coloured wall in that tunnel leading in to the old bay.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2008 19:15:09 GMT
Tower Hill can't handle all trains, can it? It's not that Tower Hill can't handle the required number of trains, it's just that turning a train at Mansion House instead means it runs less late on the westbound trip.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2008 19:19:07 GMT
Current Mansion House reversers are:
Mon - Fri 44 0527 ex Ealing due 0608 froms 0620 Richmond
Sun 26 0701 ex Acton Town due 0737 forms 0751 Wimbledon
All info available from TfL's excellent Journey Planner, the train numbers take a little travelling research.
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Post by edwin on Jun 23, 2008 20:34:28 GMT
If the proposals go ahead to replace the Piccadilly's Uxbridge branch with the District, would those trains turn around at Mansion House, or is the platform not long enough?
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Post by c5 on Jun 23, 2008 20:41:02 GMT
There is very few trains scheduled to reverse at Mansion House these days, in fact only a few in the early morning I believe ... It is used quite frequently though, mainly for Tower Hill services running 10 or more minutes late There is one booked each Mon-Fri morning Set No. 44. I dont know about Sat and Sun. I thought it went to Richmond (have to look it up!)?
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Post by c5 on Jun 23, 2008 20:51:23 GMT
If the proposals go ahead to replace the Piccadilly's Uxbridge branch with the District, would those trains turn around at Mansion House, or is the platform not long enough? What proposals are these? I don't think this is going to happen now! (Though TubeLies now want to build the new Piccadilly control room at Acton rather than South Harrow)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2008 6:10:02 GMT
So every line wants a control room of it's own! Next they will want to pull up all the connections between these parallel lines and perish the thought, run engineers trains over their lines to another line. That will lead to mayhem on the parallel sections when incidents happen as we will see at least two lots of staff fighting to take control of an incident. Might be time that LUL take the lead and define a common policy and that could include signaling systems!
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Post by District Dave on Jun 24, 2008 6:59:27 GMT
Current Mansion House reversers are: Mon - Fri 44 0527 ex Ealing due 0608 froms 0620 Wimbledon T044 reverses at Mansion House to Richmond not Wimbledon.
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Post by c5 on Jun 24, 2008 7:02:35 GMT
So every line wants a control room of it's own! Next they will want to pull up all the connections between these parallel lines and perish the thought, run engineers trains over their lines to another line. That will lead to mayhem on the parallel sections when incidents happen as we will see at least two lots of staff fighting to take control of an incident. Might be time that LUL take the lead and define a common policy and that could include signaling systems! The 4 track section between Acton and Baron's Court is the responsibility of Metronet and the functionality of running on either line is being retained. That's in the PPP contract. At present it is fairly common to run the Piccadilly down the local, though "politics" does sometimes come into it! The only place that it doesn't happen any more (and this has been for many years) is Finchley Road to Wembley Park. No-one really wants to take control of an incident either, other than the Network Operations Centre
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Post by c5 on Jun 24, 2008 7:05:09 GMT
Current Mansion House reversers are: Mon - Fri 44 0527 ex Ealing due 0608 froms 0620 Wimbledon T044 reverses at Mansion House to Richmond not Wimbledon. That's what I said Dave (Quite scary that I remember that) (Next number )
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Post by District Dave on Jun 24, 2008 7:09:42 GMT
If the proposals go ahead to replace the Piccadilly's Uxbridge branch with the District, would those trains turn around at Mansion House, or is the platform not long enough? What proposals are these? I don't think this is going to happen now! This is one of those chestnuts that reappears from time to time! And the talk often starts at 'high levels' on the line. There is logic to it though: The Picc would undoubtedly prefer to be rid of the Rayners/Uxbridge service so that all their attention can be given to the LHR service; I have heard various ideas as to whether they would 'inherit' the EBDY branch for 'flexibility' but personally I doubt it. There is also the issue too of failed trains between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge - at the moment the A60's cannot push out a 73TS and vice versa whereas D78's (and of course C69/77's should they happen to be used) are compatible. What this means is that if there is a failed train somewhere on this branch there is a fair chance that the train behind wouldn't be able to couple and push it out - this will of course add to the delay already arising while an alternative solution is implemented! I have heard too that there is some sort of EU regulation/ruling about the use of dissimilar (i.e. tube design -v- Sub-Surface) stocks on the same tracks; I've not seen anything in writing on that but maybe someone else can confirm or deny that! Time will tell...............
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2008 8:07:18 GMT
Current Mansion House reversers are: Mon - Fri 44 0527 ex Ealing due 0608 forms 0620 Wimbledon T044 reverses at Mansion House to Richmond not Wimbledon. Thanks Dave, as I had not long been awake I should have opened my eyes a bit more when typing. Yes I should have said Richmond on Mon - Fri. Head bowed and cap in hand.......
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2008 8:36:04 GMT
Of course, the real reason that they stopped running down the Jubilee was the loss of 22 crossover at Finchley Road, the removal of the fixed crossing after the well publicized derailment in the advent of PPP, well covered else where. The politics are obviously present here as no one seems to want to replace it. As the Met, at that time, only had one booked run down the Jubilee, an empty off Baker Street at the end the Sunday service, I don't think this was a hardship for the Jubilee. As for the incident control, I certainly hope we don't get another foggy morning at Kilburn in a hurry. The BR breakdown crane sitting on the southbound Jubilee with a class 25 diesel and lifting across the platform was certainly something to see. The Chiltern service of the day was enhanced between Harrow and Marylebone in recompense. Now that is what I called joined up thinking.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 24, 2008 9:16:07 GMT
So every line wants a control room of it's own! Next they will want to pull up all the connections between these parallel lines and perish the thought, run engineers trains over their lines to another line. That will lead to mayhem on the parallel sections when incidents happen as we will see at least two lots of staff fighting to take control of an incident. Might be time that LUL take the lead and define a common policy and that could include signaling systems! The worst days work ever done was privatising the system. PPP was a 'clever' way of wasting £taxpayer's on a greater than ever before scale. For LU the run up to the selling off of engineering, property, advertising, data networks, workshops etc and the subsequent devolvement processes resulted in the duplication of operating management several times over. There is nothing efficient nor economically sound about it and in 25 years time the network will probably be no less old and tired than it was before the great rip off began. Lines have had separate control rooms in the past, in fact LT/LU was a past master at centralisation and decentralisation. Whether the control rooms are common or divided amongst parallel or any lines is really neither here nor there as technology exists which could switch control at the touch of a button. We proved this years ago with the inception of emergency control rooms, switching over radio communications and telephones quite simply. Personally I worked on the Bakerloo, Central, District and Piccadilly setups. Not much is required for a control room and the same could be true for the regulating room as it is perfectly possible to 'pipe' signal controls over a secure databus much as is already done on the Picc when required. Of course the current system is yesterday's technology and the same can be said of most LU regulating rooms. Basically LU is a large train set and it should be easier as technology steps up another gear or two to operate it. Alas politics both governmental and internal prevent the efficient operation of an integrated network. Tube Lines doesn't suddenly want to build a control room at Acton Town, the plan has been around for many years now. Bollo House has been signed 'West End Operating Centre' since it was built in 1996 while Ash House at Arnos Grove was destined to be the 'East End Operating Centre'. The idea was to be able to operate the railway from both ends or either end with or without Earls Court but the movement of signal operators became a union issue! In fact in times of crisis the east end has certainly been operated from Arnos Grove on the terminals and those terminals can be located anywhere between Cockfosters and Earl's Court on the X25 network. Unless things have been updated in the last three years there is currently no way to do this west of Earl's Court but then many plans and ideas have been mooted since Tube Lines took over in the great sell off of engineering expertise and experience. The last plan was to refurbish Earls Court because shifting it was estimated to cost £300million but that was 5 years ago and did allow for the splitting of Picc and District signalling. In my view LU should be a 'combine' again and a lot of management 'fat' should be trimmed from the tops, middles and bottoms of the individual line managements but I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 24, 2008 9:21:27 GMT
What proposals are these? I don't think this is going to happen now! This is one of those chestnuts that reappears from time to time! And the talk often starts at 'high levels' on the line. There is logic to it though: The Picc would undoubtedly prefer to be rid of the Rayners/Uxbridge service so that all their attention can be given to the LHR service; I have heard various ideas as to whether they would 'inherit' the EBDY branch for 'flexibility' but personally I doubt it. There is also the issue too of failed trains between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge - at the moment the A60's cannot push out a 73TS and vice versa whereas D78's (and of course C69/77's should they happen to be used) are compatible. What this means is that if there is a failed train somewhere on this branch there is a fair chance that the train behind wouldn't be able to couple and push it out - this will of course add to the delay already arising while an alternative solution is implemented! I have heard too that there is some sort of EU regulation/ruling about the use of dissimilar (i.e. tube design -v- Sub-Surface) stocks on the same tracks; I've not seen anything in writing on that but maybe someone else can confirm or deny that! Time will tell............... I think that EU reg can't exist when in Europe heavy rail and trams run on the same tracks ! As for a failed train on the Rayners-Uxbridge branch I see no problem at all, just get a ballast loco out of Ruislip depot to assist it!
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Post by District Dave on Jun 24, 2008 9:38:37 GMT
As for a failed train on the Rayners-Uxbridge branch I see no problem at all, just get a ballast loco out of Ruislip depot to assist it! In principle I'd agree with you - but undoubtedly someone would would forget the appropriate coupler adaptor (or bring the wrong size, height etc.) and they'd then have to try to find the right one..... And trying to do a Wrong Direction Move would be a nightmare as they'd forget the form - not secure the route etc. Recipe for disaster
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2008 9:55:08 GMT
If the proposals go ahead to replace the Piccadilly's Uxbridge branch with the District, would those trains turn around at Mansion House, or is the platform not long enough? I don't think the length of the platform would be an issue. As the whole idea of the District going to Uxbridge has not been confirmed, it's anyone's guess what the actual service pattern would be.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2008 10:35:37 GMT
I have heard too that there is some sort of EU regulation/ruling about the use of dissimilar (i.e. tube design -v- Sub-Surface) stocks on the same tracks; I've not seen anything in writing on that but maybe someone else can confirm or deny that! Time will tell............... I think that EU reg can't exist when in Europe heavy rail and trams run on the same tracks ! As for a failed train on the Rayners-Uxbridge branch I see no problem at all, just get a ballast loco out of Ruislip depot to assist it! You may wish you hadn't asked this one: THE RAILWAYS (INTEROPERABILITY) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 2007As the DfT kindly provides a beginners guide to this and the following is an example of Sir Humphrey Appleby's explanation: Interoperability is a European initiative aimed at improving the competitive position of the rail sector so that it can compete effectively with other transport modes, and in particular with road transport.
The Government expects interoperability to benefit the UK by
Delivering economies of scale in the cost of components and equipment through the single market; Providing a consistent and simple pan-European approvals system for putting railway assets into service; and Reducing, to the extent that it will be possible for the UK, the barriers to the through operation of trains throughout Europe. More of this absolutely riveting info is found at www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/interoperabilityandstandards/interoperabilitybeginnersSo hopefully the extension of the Richmond branch to Paris will allow through running over not only the Paris Metro but also the Lille Metro.
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Post by District Dave on Jun 24, 2008 10:46:39 GMT
LOL!!!!!
I'll remember that for when I get in from a late turn tonight if I'm having trouble sleeping..........................
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 24, 2008 11:27:40 GMT
As for a failed train on the Rayners-Uxbridge branch I see no problem at all, just get a ballast loco out of Ruislip depot to assist it! In principle I'd agree with you - but undoubtedly someone would would forget the appropriate coupler adaptor (or bring the wrong size, height etc.) and they'd then have to try to find the right one..... And trying to do a Wrong Direction Move would be a nightmare as they'd forget the form - not secure the route etc. Recipe for disaster Okay no problem are the westbound sidings at Rayners lane extant or gone now, I can't recall? Whatever, if they're gone the car park is available, recommission the siding and keep Unimog on it with correct equipment to assist stalled/failed tube stock in the branch!
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