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Post by londonstuff on Jun 19, 2008 18:34:59 GMT
Hi all, I had to go to Heathrow the other morning and having just missed a T4/123 train, ended up waiting quite a while for another. I was wondering, from people who work for LU, how the T4 loop and the separate T5 'branch' has worked since it's been open. It always seemed silly to me that they didn't make a bigger loop, given that then all trains would call everywhere (although presumably this had been ruled out for some reason - probably financial), rather than fragment the service into T4 and T5.
Given that a certain proportion of trains now go to T5, that surely must mean less go to T4 - has this caused any problems/noticeable longer journeys for customers/overcrowding?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 19, 2008 18:59:02 GMT
Am I imagining things - or is that actually a busy Northern Line train in the picture; it doesn't look like Piccadilly stock?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 19, 2008 18:59:58 GMT
First of all, I suspect you are linking directly to an Evening Standard image - if that's the case, can you please remove it. It always seemed silly to me that they didn't make a bigger loop, given that then all trains would call everywhere (although presumably this had been ruled out for some reason - probably financial), rather than fragment the service into T4 and T5. AFAIK, it is more to do with the fact that civil engineering can't perform miracles - I'm sure I've read somewhere that the loop is confined to it's current path based on what exists above ground. Given that a certain proportion of trains now go to T5, that surely must mean less go to T4 Actually, the service is split equally.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jun 19, 2008 19:37:10 GMT
I aplogose if I misunderstood but if you are asking about the T4 loop, then have a look at my previous postings on the subject. The loop line did in fact deviate slightly as built from the original plan. It had to be moved because of the T4 station not being able to be built in the reserved box in the terminal, and had to be put into the car park building. The line was always subject to financial constraints, and that's something I have touched upon previously. The ground to which the tunelling had to be done through difficult ground and avoiding airport above-ground equipment.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2008 19:43:10 GMT
I'm not completely sure that this is correct, but it's my understanding that the T4 loop was built to take into account where T5 was originally vaguely being planned to go. However, it was then moved, but the loop was in place, and there wasn't any viable option but to make the other branch.
From what I can tell from my limited experience so far, the service (assuming that the line is running a reasonable service) seems adequate. Trains do not seem packed full of customers when we get to T4 or T5, whether this changes once the summer holidays start in earnest remains to be seen, obviously, but I don't think you'll be looking at peak-time style crush loading on any of the Heathrow trains..!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 19, 2008 20:21:10 GMT
Would it not have been possible to construct a new loop from the west side of T4 to the west side of T5? That way all trains could serve all stations.
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Post by cetacean on Jun 19, 2008 20:33:46 GMT
I think you're underestimating the size of Heathrow. The journey from Hatton Cross to T1,2,3 via T4 and T5 would be at least 6 miles, vs 1.5 direct.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 19, 2008 21:09:13 GMT
Thats a fair point; hadn't thought the distance around was so large. I used to live in LBH aswell!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 1:03:57 GMT
Anyone know how many tourists (or stupid Brits) have ended up on the wrong service and faced a change at T123? Guessing the same drivers who don't use the PA at Acton don't bother there either.
It will be interesting to see how they bolt on T6 to the tube network.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 2:49:09 GMT
It will be interesting to see how they bolt on T6 to the tube network. Build another loop, it'll look quite pretty with 2 loops and a spur line ;D
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 20, 2008 3:12:30 GMT
Are you suggesting a Piccawilly, Jim?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 6:01:20 GMT
Anyone know how many tourists (or stupid Brits) have ended up on the wrong service and faced a change at T123? Guessing the same drivers who don't use the PA at Acton don't bother there either. It will be interesting to see how they bolt on T6 to the tube network. If the DVA is set up correctly, it announces the change at Hatton Cross, possibly also at Hounslow West. On the T4 loop it will announce it at T123 as you head back east, too, and I think again at Hatton Cross on the east! There are CSA's stationed on the platform at at least one of those two stations also making PA's about it.
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Post by c5 on Jun 20, 2008 9:24:09 GMT
It tells people to change trains at Hounslow West. Rather bizarre really as if there is a 20-30 min gap behind, at least at Hatton Cross there are free buses to all airport terminals!
I must say that trains from T123 back east are usually "busy"
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jun 20, 2008 11:06:16 GMT
Regrettably, the discussion about T5 was very vague back when the T4 loop was discussed. I coverered all this in great detail in my multi-part series UNDERGROUND TO TERMINAL 4 PARTS 1 to VII I think it was in UNDERGROUND NEWS in the early 1980s. I then finished off with UNDERGROUND TO TERMINAL 5! I still have I found my original source material and can when I can get time, put it all together again to give you definitive answers. However, I can assure that at the time T5 was a pipedream, and the T4 loop nearly became one as well! It was touch-and-go for a while, and the dallying over the station box meant that the BAA decided to drop their reservation of the box inside the terminal building and then the only option was to place in the car park, as an afterthought.
The T5 site had been the Perry Oaks Sewage Works which was extant before I was born in the early 1950s, and owned by the Southern Water Board. It was in the end the only possible location for a fifth terminal but its impracticability and the need for the Water Board to relocate elsewhere mean that nothing happened. I can I believe suggest that if T5 had been on the cards back when the T4 connection was being proposed and funded by the GLC, with BAA and the Government, then it might have been possible to have swung it out towards Perry Oaks, As it is, it was as I said, touch-and-go, was at one stage 'off' then 'on' again and funding was tight enough as it was without wasteful diversion towards a then-mythical and fanciful target of a fifth terminal. It was an opportunity lost but hindsight is always perfect. The papers that I have really make depressing reading looking back...it was all in the end down to ££££ and yet again who was going to pay. And when.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 20, 2008 11:13:33 GMT
Anyone know how many tourists (or stupid Brits) have ended up on the wrong service and faced a change at T123? Guessing the same drivers who don't use the PA at Acton don't bother there either. It will be interesting to see how they bolt on T6 to the tube network. T6? Let's hope not!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 15:13:33 GMT
Anyone know how many tourists (or stupid Brits) have ended up on the wrong service and faced a change at T123? Guessing the same drivers who don't use the PA at Acton don't bother there either. It will be interesting to see how they bolt on T6 to the tube network. T6? Let's hope not! I really do hope we will get a T6 and accompanying runway 3. I really do think and hope that we can replace more domestic flights with high speed trains, but international traffic will continue to grow and planes are already getting greener.
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Post by astock5000 on Jun 20, 2008 17:59:12 GMT
If 'T6' does get built, I don't think it should have a tube station, because you would have three different services to Heathrow on the Piccadilly. Maybe a very frequent bus service to an existing station would be best, or build a new tram/light rail system in that area. That terminal wouldn't be called T6, because T1 and T2 are going to bew replaced with one new terminal called Heathrow East. Then, T4 should be Heathrow South, T5 Heathrow West, and 'T6' Heathrow North, but what about T3?
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Post by Chris M on Jun 20, 2008 19:05:06 GMT
That terminal wouldn't be called T6, because T1 and T2 are going to bew replaced with one new terminal called Heathrow East. Then, T4 should be Heathrow South, T5 Heathrow West, and 'T6' Heathrow North, but what about T3? Heathrow Central?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 19:18:42 GMT
If 'T6' does get built, I don't think it should have a tube station, because you would have three different services to Heathrow on the Piccadilly. Maybe a very frequent bus service to an existing station would be best, or build a new tram/light rail system in that area. That terminal wouldn't be called T6, because T1 and T2 are going to bew replaced with one new terminal called Heathrow East. Then, T4 should be Heathrow South, T5 Heathrow West, and 'T6' Heathrow North, but what about T3? I've drawn a plan for this before. Red is new, grey is disused. The top left corner is what it would appear like on a map. Basically it's one big circle line, that you may possibly want to servce anticlockwise instead of clockwise to reach the more important terminals first. Or ideally, double track the whole thing and go both ways. It also allows for one train to just go round and round Heathrow for connecting passengers. But it might be more likely that Heathrow's personal rapid transit system will expand and provide services between all the terminals.
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Post by cetacean on Jun 20, 2008 19:29:40 GMT
The diagram I've seen has a people mover from Heathrow T1,2,3 to T6, along with a new station on the Heathrow Express/Connect tunnel between Hayes and Heathrow Central, and no new Piccadilly Line.
I think "Heathrow East" is just the name of the project, and it'll get an ordinary number (1 or 2).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 23:12:03 GMT
The diagram I've seen has a people mover from Heathrow T1,2,3 to T6, along with a new station on the Heathrow Express/Connect tunnel between Hayes and Heathrow Central, and no new Piccadilly Line. That idea makes pretty good sense!
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jun 21, 2008 10:49:48 GMT
You have a good plan there sweek. Although I think it is necessary to have a crossover at Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 mainly because it is like the main Heathrow station and if there are service disruptions/engineering work going on. Not only that, but have you thought about where the trains will return back to normal running (E/B trains on left hand side and vice versa) after Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3? Because on your diagram, you indicate trains at Terminals 1,2,3 would run E/B at both platforms. Or do you mean the platforms would remain bi-directional?
They should have really built a scissor crossover on the east side of Terminal 5, because if there will be a loop from T5 to T6, then it would be likely trains would be suspended to T5 during construction. Or what they might do is construct the loop from one siding at T5 first, have all trains go in to one siding and reduce the number of T5 trains.
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Post by edwin on Jun 21, 2008 20:05:38 GMT
It should go the other direction though, Terminal 1, 2 and 3 is the one most people will go to, and Terminal 4 the fewest.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2008 22:46:06 GMT
They should have really built a scissor crossover on the east side of Terminal 5, because if there will be a loop from T5 to T6, then it would be likely trains would be suspended to T5 during construction. Or what they might do is construct the loop from one siding at T5 first, have all trains go in to one siding and reduce the number of T5 trains. Given that T5 trains only run every 10 minutes, I'm sure it could cope easily with one siding. Don't forget that the Moscow and Paris metros can reverse in one siding at 95sec intervals! For security reasons the trains are checked for left bags (and passengers) at Heathrow. This is thus much easier to tip out and reverse trains in a siding, than it is to try (and usually fail) to stop people boarding the train in the platform for the security sweep as occurs on the HEX. However, I really don't think that there will be any more tube construction if T6 is built. It would be much more cost effective to run a high frequency AGT system from T123 to T6. It would be great if an AGT system were to built from T123 to T4 to replace the T4 loop, so that all trains could run to T123 and T5. But I don't think it would be cost effective.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2008 21:45:37 GMT
You have a good plan there sweek. Although I think it is necessary to have a crossover at Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 mainly because it is like the main Heathrow station and if there are service disruptions/engineering work going on. Not only that, but have you thought about where the trains will return back to normal running (E/B trains on left hand side and vice versa) after Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3? Because on your diagram, you indicate trains at Terminals 1,2,3 would run E/B at both platforms. Or do you mean the platforms would remain bi-directional? The idea was that, assuming the trains keep going clockwise, Piccadilly line trains would run around the loop and use T123 as a terminus and take a longer break to allow for recovery there. In theory that would be on the northern platform (left on the image) while the other one is for the "Heathrow Ring Line", but I do not know exactly what the capacity of a loop with a single quasi-terminal is. If needed, I guess the crossovers at 123 can be kept and both platforms can be used. At Heathrow T5 one platform would be used as a terminus for the Heathrow Ring Line train(s). Another option would be to run most trains down the loop as described, while using one of the two tracks to H123 (and even on to T5 I suppose) to have a number of faster services directly into those two stations.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2008 23:01:24 GMT
You have a good plan there sweek. Although I think it is necessary to have a crossover at Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 mainly because it is like the main Heathrow station and if there are service disruptions/engineering work going on. Not only that, but have you thought about where the trains will return back to normal running (E/B trains on left hand side and vice versa) after Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3? Because on your diagram, you indicate trains at Terminals 1,2,3 would run E/B at both platforms. Or do you mean the platforms would remain bi-directional? The idea was that, assuming the trains keep going clockwise, Piccadilly line trains would run around the loop and use T123 as a terminus and take a longer break to allow for recovery there. In theory that would be on the northern platform (left on the image) while the other one is for the "Heathrow Ring Line", but I do not know exactly what the capacity of a loop with a single quasi-terminal is. If needed, I guess the crossovers at 123 can be kept and both platforms can be used. At Heathrow T5 one platform would be used as a terminus for the Heathrow Ring Line train(s). Another option would be to run most trains down the loop as described, while using one of the two tracks to H123 (and even on to T5 I suppose) to have a number of faster services directly into those two stations. A slight flaw to your loop plan is the position of T6. In some of the plans, T6 is due North of T123. This would make for a very odd loop! The plans at www.baa.com/assets//B2CPortal/Static%20Files/LHRInterimMasterPlan.pdf shows an automated guided transit (AGT) system linking T6 with T123, T4, and T5. One of three options requires a deviation of the HEX, one has the terminal above the HEX's existing alignment, and the other misses the HEX completely. There are no planned tube extensions, which makes sense given the construction of the comprehensive AGT system. It wouldn't surprise me if T6 and the AGT were built, that the T4 loop would be closed to make operations easier.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2008 7:08:07 GMT
Ah, I thought it was more north-west than plain north, Stephenk. Maybe a frequent service by HEX (or Crossrail by then I guess) would be the best option then.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2008 22:37:59 GMT
Could always expand Hatton Cross to become a terminus with 8-9 platforms, with T1235, T4 and T6 having dedicated shuttle services. The tunnelling needed to make it luggage friendly would beat any other station design in scale
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jun 24, 2008 19:29:59 GMT
A good discussion here. So are Terminals are being demolished for Heathrow East. Is it T1, T2 and Queen's Building offices, or something different? Clarification would be appreciated. I think there should be at least one extra platform at Hatton Cross. Maybe they could have a shuttle to Terminal 6? Anyway there is still ages to go until construction of T6. Uzair
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2008 21:27:43 GMT
I think there should be at least one extra platform at Hatton Cross. Maybe they could have a shuttle to Terminal 6? Why would Hatton Cross need an extra platform? There would be no need if an AGT was built between all terminals, with T123 being the core station as planned. Don't forget that people need to transfer between terminals, it's not just people travelling to the airport that need to be taken into consideration.
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