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Post by emergencybrake on Oct 25, 2007 9:12:54 GMT
Hi,
I have asked this on another forum, but I did not receive many replies and those who did reply, didnt particularly answer my questions, so I thought I'd try my luck here...
The day before I was traveling on the tube like I always did, but I had to meet someone on the platform at North Greenwich first, so I did not travel from home Angel to Wood Green directly, but instead wondered to North Greenwich first instead.
Due to the time waiting for the other person and service disruptions on the Northern Line, my journey home took 2 hours and 4 minutes (4 minutes over the 2 hours allowed journey time) and I was charged £8 instead of £2.50! I asked the station assistant behind the ticket counter... He was not very knowledgeable and just assumed that I didn't touch in when I did! He printed an oyster usage statement and this is what it said.
-=Outward Journey=-
Wood Green - Highbury £1
Boarding bus no. 4 - 0.90
-=Home Journey=-
Angel - Uncompleted £4
Unstarted - Wood Green £4
It clearly says that I started from Angel and from there, the trail is lost and then emerges at Wood Green, so how did he come to the conclusion that I did not touch in is a complete joke. He just told me to ring the Oyster helpline, so I did when I got home.
Whoever was on the other side of the line on the Oyster helpline wasn't very competent either. When I said that it took my £8 for a journey which took over 4 hours, she put me on hold whilst she asked someone else... Eventually I was told that I could not get refunded because my journey took over 2 hours. after several minutes of arguing and explaining about the problems on the Northern Line, she eventually said that I will be refunded £5.50 which I could collect from the barriers at Wood Green station within (or in) 3-5 days? She didn't seem to speak English very well!
When I went through Wood Green today, I was not refunded! So I would like to know...
- in how many days should I expect a refund?
- what if I don't get the refund that was promised?
- is it true that I can only get refunded once? If there was a service disruption in the future, I'm not eligible to claim?
- Is it fair to "steal" £8 from someone who made a legitimate journey but took over 2 hours for some reasons?
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Post by Tomcakes on Oct 25, 2007 9:24:15 GMT
This is the problem with the system - you need to do legwork for yourself to get back money which is rightfully yours. You'll never get anything out of the staff at the station - best bet is to tell them to print an Oyster statement then ring the helldesk.
It's completely unfair I think - it's LU's fault that the Northern line was messed up, and they shouldn't charge you for something that is their failing.
I'd suggest ringing up again and seeing if you get something. If you insist, they will send you a cheque, which is what I did.
I doubt the refund limit very much - if London Underground screw up, they should not charge you extra for the 'privilage'! I think it's very dodgy that they do, and expect you to claim back.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 14:51:11 GMT
When your journey is upset by service disruption of over 15 minutes, *always* get a Customer Charter Form and fill it in. They ought to be available at every station on at least one leaflet rack (and there's nothing to stop you grabbing a handful for use in the future), and there's also an option to fill one out online if your Oyster card is registered - I don't know the address off the top of my head, but I expect you'll find it somewhere on the Oyster part of the TfL site. I could be wrong but I believe they refund you the value of your journey as if you paid with a cash ticket - ie, £4 incl. Zone 1 and £3 exc. Zone 1, so it's certainly worth doing. There are a few loopholes - the delays has to be due to LU or the contractors, so signal failures qualify, adverse weather conditions don't.
I know this is at somewhat of a tangent to the initial question but it's worth bearing in mind for any disrupted journeys, whether you've been overcharged as a result or not.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 15:22:56 GMT
in how many days should I expect a refund? If an Oyster transaction has been authorised by the CSC it should in theory activate onto an Oyster Card more or less straight away, once this has been used at the designated station. This is the same principle for internet top ups, which need activation also. When an Oyster is being activated the card reader will flash green, instead of the usual green proceed light. If delays persist contact the CSC again. what if I don't get the refund that was promised? A first step is to look into what disrupted the journey concerned, as Underground Gal has said, some instances will not count towards a refund - for example, if the Northern Line was disrupted by a security or a fire alert, this is out of LUs control and will not be refundable. This is purely an example, and any mix up of communication (if you're under the impression a refund is 'promised') should again be directed to the CSC. Another step after is to request refund vouchers to be posted to you (if the Oyster option sill doesn't happen), but you do need ID with you to use these at a station. is it true that I can only get refunded once? If there was a service disruption in the future, I'm not eligible to claim? No not true. You can only claim for one incident once, but it is likely if you're a very frequent tube user delays may happen in the future. Is it fair to "steal" £8 from someone who made a legitimate journey but took over 2 hours for some reasons? No, of course it's not - but LU's systems are in place to combat fare evasion and any attempt by people to do it. I appreciate that it's not fair on people such as yourself who are using the system in a proper manner, but yet again, the few have spoilt it for the many  I hope the issue you've had gets resolved soon - from what I've seen above you've done nothing wrong and shouldn't have all the headache described above. All be ok in the end mind  |
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Post by Tomcakes on Oct 25, 2007 15:29:09 GMT
A first step is to look into what disrupted the journey concerned, as Underground Gal has said, some instances will not count towards a refund - for example, if the Northern Line was disrupted by a security or a fire alert, this is out of LUs control and will not be refundable. That might be the case for a Customer Charter refund, so you might not get the whole money back, but surely you should get the overcharged portion of it back? So you would end up paying the proper fare. With the various people involved in the system these days I imagine it is very easy for LU to claim it was out of their control, it was suchandsuch a department, and hence get out of paying out claims. But certainly, charging somebody £8 is not on - how is it the passenger's fault? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 15:40:30 GMT
But certainly, charging somebody £8 is not on - how is it the passenger's fault? As said above TC I appreciate that, but the culture we live in now has a bearing on what goes on. I remember when the £4 charge was first introduced, and how so many people were caught out as they habitually misused Oyster cards. It was bought in as the revenue issues before were huge. As said, it is an unfortunate situation but wrongdoers have messed it up for everyone else. It's becuase of this that situations involving '£8' happen now. |
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Post by amershamsi on Oct 25, 2007 16:34:52 GMT
bear in mind that Morden/Epping-Chesham is often over 2 hours. Imagine just missing your Met train, and having to wait a long time, because you left your start station one train later than you would have had to make the connection, or got held up by two or three minutes. The TfL journey planner gives journeys for those routes longer than 2 hours.
Imagine it after NR within the zones gets it - you have even more low frequency lines, that are also far out from central London. My Dad used to commute from Chalfont to Bromley (for a fairly brief time), and even on a fast train, it took him over two hours (and driving would have been nearly as quick).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 16:47:07 GMT
I think the NR side of things may have to have the system 'tweaked' a bit, especially on lines where a 30 min (or 60 even) service is in operation. Oyster on NR with the LU system may be very interesting...........................
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Post by johnb on Oct 25, 2007 17:53:49 GMT
I think the NR side of things may have to have the system 'tweaked' a bit, especially on lines where a 30 min (or 60 even) service is in operation. Oyster on NR with the LU system may be very interesting........................... The sane way to do it would be to say that the penalty is waived if your touches for the whole day resolve into a legitimate set of journeys (i.e. if your first touch is 'in' somewhere, your second touch is 'out' at a different station, your next is 'in', your last touch of the day is 'out' somewhere), without any specific time rules. That does leave some scope for fraud, but only very inconveniently - in particular, it'd rule out the "z6 unbarriered -> z1 barriered, don't touch in, touch out and only pay the z1 fare" scam which presumably accounted for the majority of Oyster fraud pre-£4 penalty. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Oct 25, 2007 20:27:33 GMT
Sorry, I think it is completely out of order to charge people £8 for a journey because LU have screwed up. Especially, if you complain about it, they really ought to refund you the journey, if they can look at it, see that the network was screwed at the time and that it was LU's fault, not theirs, and refund the money. It's not the passenger's fault that the system is flawed, and they should not have to pay because of it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 22:38:35 GMT
A single journey is just that - a single journey. So if you're travelling from point A to point B the ticket is valid via any reasonable route that your ticket os valid for.
The question raised here, is a single ticket a journey from point A to point B via point S that involves a wait on the platform?
If this was NR, could I travel on a Peterborough - Doncaster ticket, but instead stay on the train and meet a friend on the platform at say Newcastle, and then travel back to Donny?
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Post by Chris M on Oct 25, 2007 22:57:23 GMT
I had a journey recently from St James' Park to Leytonstone via Earl's Court that took over 2 hours for which I was charged £8. I rang the Oyster helpline the following day and was refunded, without question, to my debit card (didn't know when I'd next be in London).
It think it just depends who you get on the end of the phone how your are treated. All this really should be doable by ticket office staff, but then this would make it harder for LU to close the ticket offices...
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Post by cetacean on Oct 26, 2007 12:54:35 GMT
If this was NR, could I travel on a Peterborough - Doncaster ticket, but instead stay on the train and meet a friend on the platform at say Newcastle, and then travel back to Donny? No. There's a horrible document called the Routeing Guide that says exactly where you can and can't go between A and B. One fundamental rule is not being allowed to visit or pass through the same station twice (though there are exceptions, mainly for interchange purposes). I believe paper tube tickets have a "go by a reasonably direct route" rule, but Oyster doesn't. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2007 19:16:34 GMT
And, if they gave you a reference number, quote that if you need to contact the helpdesk again... If they did not, then your original call time and date should still be on their system.
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Post by Tomcakes on Oct 26, 2007 19:41:28 GMT
It think it just depends who you get on the end of the phone how your are treated. All this really should be doable by ticket office staff, but then this would make it harder for LU to close the ticket offices... Indeed, it would be *far* more simpler if the ticket office could read your card, see you've made a journey which has come through as unresolved, they will know that the service is up the spout, and put your money back on. Takes all of 2 minutes to conduct. Rather than the faff of ringing up at a fortune a minute, then arguing with some telesales fool, before finally getting them to agree to refund what's rightfully yours. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2007 22:59:30 GMT
The system has only EVER allowed the booking clerk to resolve the very last unresolved journey. In this example we have 2 and as such can only be treated by the help desk.
The permission for booking clerks to resolve unresolved journeys has been tightened, but they still have the ability to do so if a known service disruption has occurred. However as mentioned above, they can only resolve the LAST unresolved journey.
Oyster PAYG is an extension of the paper ticket, it's just the delivery method is on a reusable card rather than a paper ticket. Oyster PAYG is not zonal and fares are calculated using the single fare chart.
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Post by Colin on Oct 27, 2007 0:23:00 GMT
A single journey is just that - a single journey. So if you're travelling from point A to point B the ticket is valid via any reasonable route that your ticket os valid for. The question raised here, is a single ticket a journey from point A to point B via point S that involves a wait on the platform? I've stayed quiet on this, despite my ticket office experience, as some things about Oyster have changed since I moved onto the train side - indeed PAYG wasn't 'live' back then. But I did think this thread subject was a little "iffy" - I agree that charging £8 for a single journey is taking the mick, but I also agree with 'central-simon', Angel to Wood Green via North Greenwich isn't a reasonable single journey! Using the two hour rule to justify it is simply trying to bend the rules to suit the argument. If you had a 'single' paper ticket, going via North Greenwich would still be unreasonable. In fact paper tickets always had the same time limit too, so this isn't new to Oyster - it's simply a case that the technology is now proving that people are taking the mick and are expecting to get more than they are entitled to! Ok, you stay on the platform and don't leave the station - so what? If you wish to travel around the system, buy a travel card - that's what it's for - and if you don't intend to leave the system within two hours, get a paper one.........otherwise our stations play the announcements plenty enough: "always touch in & out to ensure you pay the correct fare". And before I get the inevitable comments back; let's be clear, I do have sympathy with those genuinely caught out on a legitimate journey (say West Ruislip to Epping) - the only point of this post is that I just cannot agree that deliberately going so far out of your way can be called a legitimate single journey. |
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Post by emergencybrake on Oct 27, 2007 19:29:32 GMT
Update: I've went through Wood Green station today and I was finally refunded the £5.50 as I touched in. Thanks for the help people. But I did think this thread subject was a little iffy" - I agree that charging £8 for a single journey is taking the mick, but I also agree with 'central-simon', Angel to Wood Green via North Greenwich isn't a reasonable single journey! Using the two hour rule to justify it is simply trying to bend the rules to suit the argument. If you had a 'single' paper ticket, going via North Greenwich would still be unreasonable. In fact paper tickets always had the same time limit too, so this isn't new to Oyster - it's simply a case that the technology is now proving that people are taking the mick and are expecting to get more than they are entitled to! Ok, you stay on the platform and don't leave the station - so what? If you wish to travel around the system, buy a travel card - that's what it's for - and if you don't intend to leave the system within two hours, get a paper one.........otherwise our stations play the announcements plenty enough: "always touch in & out to ensure you pay the correct fare. Ehm.. excuse me Colin. I am not bending the rule and theres nothing iffy going on. My journey would have NOT taken anywhere near two hours if it wasnt for the Northen Line being messed up. It took about 7-8 minutes for a train to arrive and then it made a few stops in the tunnel. Also I was NOT intending to travel around the system just for the fun of it. All I did was to meet someone that I have not seen for many years at North Greenwich and invite him over to my house, as he did not know how to get to my place. Just a very ordinary thing, and you dont expect me to get a paper ticket for just this. So to conclude, if it wasnt for the Northen Line, I wouldnt have to go through all this! |
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Post by Colin on Oct 27, 2007 20:41:39 GMT
Well you've got your refund, so I hope you feel the matter has been dealt with satisfactorily by LU/Oyster.
But I still cannot for the life of me see how Angel to North Greenwich, then onto Wood Green can reasonably be considered one journey.
Let's get past the moral's of meeting friends etc for a minute - it's already been acknowledged that in a similar case on NR, this type of scenario wouldn't be acceptable as a single journey - so why is it considered so different on LUL?
Let's take a different, but not really all that different example:
Let's say I entered the system at Upminster, travel to Mile End and then go on the Central to Liverpool Street where I look around and admire the tile work or something. I don't leave the station, but travel back to Upminster. That would take less than two hours (but could risk going over on a bad day) - but Oyster would say I've got an incomplete end and an incomplete start and I'd get charged £8 on exiting at Upminster.
Could I say that's a single journey and get a refund?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2007 22:02:50 GMT
..but you'd get free travel  I can recount a story of a punter complaining loudly that they had travelled from my station to Stockwell to give a friend something, they didn't get out at Stockwell, so when they returned why had they been charged! |
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Post by emergencybrake on Oct 28, 2007 13:26:18 GMT
But I still cannot for the life of me see how Angel to North Greenwich, then onto Wood Green can reasonably be considered one journey. So you expect me to go all the way up at North Greenwich, exit the barriers and immediately re-enter? Which is pretty pointless IMO. |
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Post by Phil on Oct 28, 2007 15:55:15 GMT
On one of our recent forum get-togethers (or should that be gets-together?) we had to do exactly that at High Barnet or we would probably have gone over the 2 hour limit.
Although not currently LU myself I agree with the staff that for that sort of exploration a travelcard is the correct option.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 28, 2007 23:14:29 GMT
I once travelled from Ruislip to Charing Cross - can't remember the route I took, although it wasn't the most direct because I had loads of time spare. As a tube enthusiast, I sometimes roam about the system - particularly when new stock is first introduced, or when old stock is taken out of service.
Anyway, my points are:
1. The journey did take more than 2 hours, so I was charged £8.
2. I had already reached the zone 1 - 6 cap - so any journey made was technically free anyway!
Surely, if the cap has been reached, the system should't charge anything, no matter what the circumstances, since there is no way that I can cheat TFL out of money, when the journey was free in the first place.
If I ever go out for a day roaming around, I buy a paper one day travelcard - saves all the hassle of worrying if your journey has taken 2 hours, and then running up escalators to touch out before the Oyster Monster catches you in time for its 2 hour feed!
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Post by littlecog on Oct 30, 2007 4:01:16 GMT
On one of our recent forum get-togethers (or should that be gets-together?) we had to do exactly that at High Barnet or we would probably have gone over the 2 hour limit. Although not currently LU myself I agree with the staff that for that sort of exploration a travelcard is the correct option. But surely the PAYG daily capping makes this whole thing moot? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 6:15:48 GMT
Even if you have already reached a cap - any further unresolved journey will be charged at £4 until you reach the peak Z1- D cap.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 19:59:32 GMT
So, if you see that you are going over the two-hour limit on a legit journey, perhaps the best thing to do is not to touch out at the end of your journey, and ask to be let out without doing so. Of course, this is only valid if you are aware that the ticket office is open, that someone can let you out, etc. etc. So you get debited 4 pounds, which can be resolved there and then at the ticket office, as it is only the last journey that is unresolved.
Tres complicated.
Anyhow, something similarly annoying happened to me about a year back. My wife touched in at Brent Cross on a Sunday, immediately remembered that she'd forgotten something in the car, so touched out again. It was 30 seconds on the clock (I was there), she had gone no more than 10 yards from the gateline, and of course she was debitted 1.50. The Oyster helpline refused to credit the card... Were they correct? I'm sure that according to the conditions of carriage, yes. Were they fair? Not really.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 21:31:47 GMT
See, that's the first problem. I always thought it was the minimum fare from that station, which in Brent Cross would be a £1. They change the rules so often without telling staff  The touch in/out one is a difficult one. In honesty a leggit punter who touches in/out quickly will have a just case to have the charge refunded. Normally touch in, walk to platform, 15 mins for next train, you then touch out. In that instance IMHO it's unfair to charge someone. Or with last trains, don't read the 1,000,000 signs telling you the last train has gone and then you and touch in. CHAOS. However if the touch in/out was free - the fraud potential is huge. In this case, the missus should've seeked assistance from the (probably well hidden) staff and got them to let her out. A PAYG senario today - woman enters at a Z6 station - travels to a Z1 station - to meet boyfriend - boyfriend not there - no mobile phone signal - she touches out and returns 30 mins later DEMANDING her previous prepay exit was cancelled as XXX stn wasn't her final destination and she only got out to meet someone. Was I right to tell her to swing her hook ? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 22:12:44 GMT
An idea: abolish DPC and set up Oyster PAYG so that a Day Travelcard can be loaded to the card at an MFM, which, upon first entry, will deduct that day travelcard fare, but at 50p less than the equiv. paper price... So, £5.20 for Z1-Z4 would be deducted straight away, without the current system of £4.00 off £2.50 back on, £4.00 off £1.00 back on and so on...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 22:34:17 GMT
An idea: abolish DPC and set up Oyster PAYG so that a Day Travelcard can be loaded to the card at an MFM, which, upon first entry, will deduct that day travelcard fare, but at 50p less than the equiv. paper price... So, £5.20 for Z1-Z4 would be deducted straight away, without the current system of £4.00 off £2.50 back on, £4.00 off £1.00 back on and so on... I was surprised at first that you cant just load a travelcard onto an Oyster. I'm sure this would appeal to people on here as much as the tourist. Having a system where we can go online/ring/text a ticket and have it put onto the card prior to travel would help everyone. Then you can go out enjoy your day and not have to worry about touching in/out all the time. One thing I don't understand TfL's thinking is why charge people more than a daily travelcard for there travel ie £8? I know the charge is there to stop fraud but once a person gets to a travelcard price aren't them then exempt from fraudulent travel as they then have a travelcard so have a right to go anywhere they please? Why not just charge the going rate of a travelcard at the first touch in and have the system adjust it at the end of the working day? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 22:38:27 GMT
Why not just charge the going rate of a travelcard at the first touch in and have the system adjust it at the end of the working day? Exactly my thinking, sire!!! Just deduct the relavant zones cost at first point of entry... If you knew you was going to travel around London, you could upload it the day before via the internet... and then maybe there wouldn't be the issue of being overcharged and the associated hassle for staff at gates or the not-very-helpful-help-but-put-you-on-hold-desk... |
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