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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 23:08:19 GMT
See, that's the first problem. I always thought it was the minimum fare from that station, which in Brent Cross would be a £1. They change the rules so often without telling staff  Might have been a pound, my memory is getting worse with the years... In this case, the missus should've seeked assistance from the (probably well hidden) staff and got them to let her out. Haha... "(probably well hidden)" How did you guess?  DEMANDING her previous prepay exit was cancelled as XXX stn wasn't her final destination and she only got out to meet someone. Was I right to tell her to swing her hook ? Quite right you were too. It's freeloaders like her who ruin it for the rest of us Daily Mail readers. Seriously though, you were absolutely right, and I'm not staff! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2007 23:24:47 GMT
Why not just charge the going rate of a travelcard at the first touch in and have the system adjust it at the end of the working day? Exactly my thinking, sire!!! Just deduct the relavant zones cost at first point of entry... If you knew you was going to travel around London, you could upload it the day before via the internet... and then maybe there wouldn't be the issue of being overcharged and the associated hassle for staff at gates or the not-very-helpful-help-but-put-you-on-hold-desk... I have realised one issue with this. Theres a big difference between all day travelcards and off peak ones (after 9:30am). But I suppose this can be changed by after 9:30am deducting the travelcard amount. Im sure the system is capable of doing this due to it knowing the reset set time (4:30am). If nothing else this could help reduce the load on the call center where people have been wrongly overcharged. Im sure most people who use the system before 9:30am will know that a travelcard is more but will either have a seasonal ticket or have a amount on the card to cover for the cost of an all day travelcard. I know from experience that Ive had nearly -£3 on my Oyster before now. So the flexibility is there to do this. One thing I dont seem to understand is the need for a penatly of £8 on the system. Unlike the NR fares, London has a ticket which allows travel anywhere for a set price. The travelcard. Surely a better use would be to charge people for a travelcard instead of the £8. Or is it a case that TfL really just want the Oyster that to be able to track customer flows? As the current system allows for cheaper fares but at a price, tracking tho at a basic level. Personally I dont mind this as it makes sure that TfL/LUL has a record of pax flows and can make sure funding is used to relieve the busier parts of the network (I know that interchanges between lines throws this out). The bottom line is the system isn't perfect but naturally as time goes on it will develop to the point where its much better at serving the needs of the customer and assisting staff. At the moment its madness to think that they propose closing ticket offices with a system that still has problems. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 9:57:19 GMT
Im sure most people who use the system before 9:30am will know that a travelcard is more but will either have a seasonal ticket or have a amount on the card to cover for the cost of an all day travelcard. You'd be surprised, the number of times we get people whining that their card isn't capping properly, you take it up to a ticket machine and - surprise! - the first journey (or couple of journeys!)was made at 8am or so. I could understand if it was something like 9.28, where they'd thought they were in the time but the gate was running slow/station clock running fast (whiiiiich is another rant altogether...), but when it's that much out you just want to say: "Please. Have this copy of Your Fares and Tickets, read, and inwardly digest, order it in whatever language you need, just *please*... read it!". |
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Post by Tomcakes on Nov 2, 2007 10:24:22 GMT
As for touching in at 9.30, let us imagine that the time is actually 9.35 - for arguments sake, I check this against my watch which is calibrated to MSF at Rugby (or it's sucessor, but I can't remember that off the top of my head). However, the clock in the gates thinks it's 9.25, and charges you accordingly... when I realise that I've been overcharged, where would I stand? LU base their records on what time my touch in was registered, however actually their clock was running slow... methinks again that you wouldn't have a leg to stand on, LU would have screwed you out of a few quid and got away with it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 10:59:05 GMT
As for touching in at 9.30, let us imagine that the time is actually 9.35 - for arguments sake, I check this against my watch which is calibrated to MSF at Rugby (or it's sucessor, but I can't remember that off the top of my head). However, the clock in the gates thinks it's 9.25, and charges you accordingly... when I realise that I've been overcharged, where would I stand? LU base their records on what time my touch in was registered, however actually their clock was running slow... methinks again that you wouldn't have a leg to stand on, LU would have screwed you out of a few quid and got away with it. The only way around this is clcoks on the gateline. Not ideal but theres not alot of opitions unless you make sure you dont leave your home till after the 9:30 limit. |
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Post by c5 on Nov 2, 2007 11:02:12 GMT
As for touching in at 9.30, let us imagine that the time is actually 9.35 - for arguments sake, I check this against my watch which is calibrated to MSF at Rugby (or it's sucessor, but I can't remember that off the top of my head). However, the clock in the gates thinks it's 9.25, and charges you accordingly... when I realise that I've been overcharged, where would I stand? LU base their records on what time my touch in was registered, however actually their clock was running slow... methinks again that you wouldn't have a leg to stand on, LU would have screwed you out of a few quid and got away with it. The only way around this is clcoks on the gateline. Not ideal but theres not alot of opitions unless you make sure you dont leave your home till after the 9:30 limit. But what if (like happened on the south end of the Northern and made it onto BBC LDN news) the station clocks are at a different time to the Oyster equipment. The Infraco will only retime a clock if it is more than 3 minutes out. Where as Oyster is run by a sepeare computer! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 11:04:30 GMT
Im sure most people who use the system before 9:30am will know that a travelcard is more but will either have a seasonal ticket or have a amount on the card to cover for the cost of an all day travelcard. You'd be surprised, the number of times we get people whining that their card isn't capping properly, you take it up to a ticket machine and - surprise! - the first journey (or couple of journeys!)was made at 8am or so. I could understand if it was something like 9.28, where they'd thought they were in the time but the gate was running slow/station clock running fast (whiiiiich is another rant altogether...), but when it's that much out you just want to say: "Please. Have this copy of Your Fares and Tickets, read, and inwardly digest, order it in whatever language you need, just *please*... read it!". Worse part of this is the fact I see this happening! Sheep a good name for most of the pax? Heres a question for you. I make a journey at 8am to central London. Am Charge £1.50 for it. Then after 10am I start using buses, tube and Trams during the rest of the day. Now my journey's after 10am are £8s worth so total spent is £9.50. would the system look at my journey's and re-adjust it to a single and a travelcard or would it overcharge me and not cap me to till I reached an all day travelcard? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 11:07:35 GMT
The only way around this is clcoks on the gateline. Not ideal but theres not alot of opitions unless you make sure you dont leave your home till after the 9:30 limit. But what if (like happened on the south end of the Northern and made it onto BBC LDN news) the station clocks are at a different time to the Oyster equipment. The Infraco will only retime a clock if it is more than 3 minutes out. Where as Oyster is run by a sepeare computer! Thats why I suggested clocks on the barriers themselves. every ticket gate has its own clock then it can record what time you joined the system according to the barrier not some unknown system, where if we're honest, you have no idea if your right or not? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 17:05:54 GMT
Big problem that - the time between 'real time', 'railway time' and 'Oyster time'.
Anyone who works on the gateline will notice these at 0900 when the Freedom passes get rejected or at 0930 when the paper TC's are rejected.
Always better IMHO to give it a minute or two. I 100% agree that clocks linked to Oyster time would be a good solution - or 'Oyster time' is linked to 'railway time'.
Oyster capping will cap to the cheapest option, so if an off-peak cap and a single fare is the cheapest this is what it would cap to.
The reason IMHO why one day TC's were never made available for Oyster PAYG is they would still create the reliance on booking offices. i.e. you would simply take your Oyster to the booking office and ask the clerk for a one day TC. Oyster as a system is supposed to remove the reliance of traditional ticket selling methods and thus reduce station staff (thus how the expense of Oyster was agreed). Even the current system of adding PAYG in small amounts is "disliked" by those within TFL, who want all punters to add amounts of at least £5 and to have the card in balance. (interest free loan to TFL, less need for staff).
Just wondering - could the £8 double charge be viewed in the same way the British banks are being hit with compensation claims?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 22:10:48 GMT
Oyster capping will cap to the cheapest option, so if an off-peak cap and a single fare is the cheapest this is what it would cap to. The reason IMHO why one day TC's were never made available for Oyster PAYG is they would still create the reliance on booking offices. i.e. you would simply take your Oyster to the booking office and ask the clerk for a one day TC. Oyster as a system is supposed to remove the reliance of traditional ticket selling methods and thus reduce station staff (thus how the expense of Oyster was agreed). Even the current system of adding PAYG in small amounts is "disliked" by those within TFL, who want all punters to add amounts of at least £5 and to have the card in balance. (interest free loan to TFL, less need for staff). Just wondering - could the £8 double charge be viewed in the same way the British banks are being hit with compensation claims? But is there an opition to make adding a TC to a PAYG Oyster an machine only tho? As for the £8 charge, techinally I think its bad idea. Especially when its more than a paper A-D TC. I can't see what ground TfL would have on forcing this on people when there is a ticket which gives the user great rights (ie unlimited travel with a TC) which costs less? Why not just apply it to people who don't touch in instead? Then they've enter the system without a valid ticket plus making people have enough for a travelcard would mean they top up with atleast a £5. I know from personal experience that you can put less than £5 on your Oyster in a ticket office (the guy in the ticket office misunderstood my accent and put £2 on my Oyster instead of £7. Not his fault). But would the travel I describled eariler mean Im charged an all day travelcard rather than a single jounery and an off peak travelcard or does the system decide it all based on your first jounery (ie start before 9:30 and your cap is double what it should be for jouneries afterwards?) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2007 9:38:58 GMT
You can also update monthly & Annual TCs at the Multi-fare, but a lot of people still choose to do so at a booking office. Also what would have happened if you started you day assuming you were only making say 2 journeys, and then decided to make more. You would be unfairly penalised because you didn't buy a One Day TC on your Oyster in the first place. Or are we talking about, PAYG capping, One Day TC's and period TC's  It's already complicated enough explaining to some about the 2 choices, add a third  In retrospect the only reason capping won't work is if you don't touch in/out. Now the 2 hour rule applies to only a certain number of small journeys originating from either Amersham or Chesham and involve long journeys to the end of London. Whilst at least on theory possible, I can't imagine very many journeys being made like that. Now you can argue should a ticketing system encompass all possibilities or 99.5% of possibilities, and it is a fair point. However I am not convinced that anybody who decides to go on a detour, wait on a platform, then continue to travel, is using a single ticket in the correct manner. However the original problem was corrected by the Oyster ticketing people, so they must take a different view to me. The original position of charging the minimum fare if you failed to touch in/out was routinely abused by fare evaders - who now have found a new way to abuse the system. IMHO the £8 fare is there to concentrate the mind that you must not abuse the Oyster system ;D A colleague of mine once said when we talked about the maximum fare being introduced " If they can teach those squirrels on the telly how to collect their peanuts from those feeding stations, I'm sure the public can use their Oyster cards properly". I wasn't so sure ;D |
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Post by suncloud on Nov 3, 2007 9:58:01 GMT
I think some people aren't understanding how the £8 has come about. It is two charges of £4... First for not completing a journey and second for not starting a journey, as the system resets an unresolved journey after two hours.
£4 is a reasonable charge for failing to touch in/out at one end of your journey. It represents the cash fare for a Zone 1-6 journey. Or 50p more than the off-peak oyster fare for 1-D (and less than the peak). If a journey is unresolved the system has to assume you've travelled all zones and then charge a little bit more as an incentive to ensure people do touch in and out.
The issue here has come from travelling more than two hours. Most journeys (probably over 99% of A-B journeys made) are easily possible to achieve within if carried out directly without disruption.
One solution is to set gatelines to refuse to let people out who haven't resolved their journey within 2 hours. However that relies on manned gatelines and ticket offices to deal with working out whether the journey made is ok or not and then correct the oyster balance accordingly [and as any journey involving times over two hours will likely end out of town, chances are there will be little or no visible staff].
Second solution is to create a benefit of the doubt period where if a journey takes between 2 and 3 hours it assumes it is one journey, but maybe adds a small penalty to discourage fraudulent use of this arrangement (e.g charge the £4 cash fare, but only once). Then letting ticket offices correct this charge on request anytime that day.
Third option is to identify how long each A-B journey should take. Any journey's that are scheduled to take over an hour can have 2 and a half hours to complete their journey. Any journey scheduled to take over 90 mins gives you 3 hours to complete.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2007 13:02:22 GMT
Im talking about whether or not doing a single jounery before 9:30am would mean the system does not allow you then to have a daily price cap when you start making jouneries after 10am. If I was doing in it in paper Id have a peak single and then buy a off peak travelcard. does the Oyster system allow you to do this or does it force you to have a peak travelcard if you make one jounery before 9:30? If its the latter would the customer be enititled to a refund as far as I can see it you'd have been overcharged for what is techincally two types of use of your Oyster in a single day.
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Post by Chris M on Nov 3, 2007 13:08:59 GMT
I know someone who has two oyster cards. One for peak-time travel and the other for off-peak.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2007 16:00:34 GMT
Im talking about whether or not doing a single jounery before 9:30am would mean the system does not allow you then to have a daily price cap when you start making jouneries after 10am. If I was doing in it in paper Id have a peak single and then buy a off peak travelcard. does the Oyster system allow you to do this or does it force you to have a peak travelcard if you make one jounery before 9:30? If its the latter would the customer be enititled to a refund as far as I can see it you'd have been overcharged for what is techincally two types of use of your Oyster in a single day. Sorry I thought I mentioned it. Just to expand. Oyster should cap to the cheapest available ticket options. So if you start your journey before 0930, the system would either cap to the Peak rate or would charge a single (or combination of single tickets) and the off-peak cap. A couple of scenarios: Enter at Tooting Broadway at 0859 and travel to Waterloo - £2.50 You then go to a meeting or whatever then start your assualt on the LU network from 1200 lasting the rest of the day but you always touch in/out - don't take longer than 2 hours and don't stray outside Z1-3. You return to Tooting Broadway, avoid the drunks and get safely home. The options would be: 1) Peak cap - £7.30 2) Off peak cap + single fare = £5.20 + £2.50 = £7.70. So you would be charged the peak cap. Next scenario You start again at Tooting Broadway at 0859 and travel to Balham - £1.00. Again you go to your meeting then start your assualt on the LU network from 1200 lasting the rest of the day but you always touch in/out - don't take longer than 2 hours and don't stray outside Z1-3. You return to Tooting Broadway, avoid the drunks and get safely home. The options would be 1) Peak cap - £7.30 2) Off peak cap + single fare = £5.20 + £1.00 = £6.20 Therefore you would be charged the off peak cap + single fare. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2007 16:14:30 GMT
Many thanks SS Stig. I wasn't sure from the eailer replies if that was the case, but you've cleared that up for me now!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2007 20:33:43 GMT
Always better IMHO to give it a minute or two. I 100% agree that clocks linked to Oyster time would be a good solution - or 'Oyster time' is linked to 'railway time'. Unfortunately adding clocks at this point would mean replacing every single gate, which is a pain - and, more accurately, expensive and therefore unlikely. Don't forget, there's always the "unofficial clock": is there a huge crowd of people itching to use their off peak paper passes gathered around the ticket barriers or not? *g* (If there are staff on the barrier they will generally know if any off peak tickets have gone through yet or not, if you touch in after they have you certainly ought to be safe.) |
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Post by c5 on Nov 3, 2007 20:44:13 GMT
Will "Oyster Time" be the same time that is on the SCU?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2007 20:50:43 GMT
How about just having a pot matrix board above/near the gateline which can flash up in big bold lettering at 09.31 when the Off Peak TC can then be used, or have it showing countdown in xx mins to Off Peak ODTC available? Or a simple tannoy anno can boom out?!?!?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2007 20:56:57 GMT
That's the sensible approach - but with more Oyster people, the big rush at 0930 wasn't like it used to be.
I was thinking a similar thing to ATO. A big dotmatirx clock that is linked to the SCU which operates the time on the gates. Or a simple screen claiming peak/ off peak.
A simple PA - never. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the Chesham control room, the time is now 0930 and you are able to use your off-peak tickets..... by the time you say that, it's nearly 5pm
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Post by Phil on Nov 3, 2007 23:06:53 GMT
Centrally-controlled clocks can still go wrong: I put my module in the ticket machine of the bus for my 2nd half on Tuesday and the clock was 4 mins slow despite it being controlled from Rugby.......
I stopped (flagged down) 4 other of my workmates on the way to Gloucester (oh what fun!!) and all their clocks on their ticket machines were right (same as my watch which was checked to the second earlier in the day). Next day, same driver (me), same bus, same ticket machine, same module and it was fine.
My supervisor helpfully told me it was impossible and I must be wrong............
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Post by Chris M on Nov 4, 2007 0:28:04 GMT
I encountered a similar problem as a passenger on a rail replacement coach in Essex a couple of years back. When we arrived at Audley End station, there were a couple of staff there who chastised the driver of the coach I was on for running early, but he pointed out that he was on time to his tachograph (sp?).
I only just got the bus, thinking I'd get there in plenty of time as I wasn't certain exactly where the stop was. The inspectors said there had been complaints of the (hourly) replacement bus not turning up.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2007 6:08:26 GMT
That's the sensible approach - but with more Oyster people, the big rush at 0930 wasn't like it used to be. Having had no experience of pre-Oyster crowds, I can't comment, though I believe you - yet in my experience, there is still a noticable group of people even at stations like Oakwood where you can sit for an hour or two later in the day and barely see a soul come in. It's more pronounced during school holidays obviously but does still occur during term times. |
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Post by Dmitri on Nov 4, 2007 9:25:02 GMT
you can sit for an hour or two later in the day and barely see a soul come in What, a station is open, service is up and running, and no one comes in ? Unbelievable... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2007 13:15:14 GMT
Aye the 0930 crowd is still there but not like the good old days Although the 0900 crowd still turn up - make 'em wait I say ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2007 14:31:25 GMT
What, a station is open, service is up and running, and no one comes in :o ? Unbelievable... Welcome to the dead end of the Piccadilly Line... ;-p As for the comment about SCU's, possibly they vary from site to site or I'm misremembering, but I don't recall ever seeing the time on one? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2007 19:03:16 GMT
Oakwood; akin to Blake Hall?
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It's already complicated enough explaining to some about the 2 choices, add a third 
