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Post by ruislip on Apr 30, 2008 22:52:14 GMT
In the days before all-day running to the City and back was introduced, were there any trains which stabled at Aldgate, Liverpool St, or Moorgate between the peaks? My guess is that Moorgate had two Mets stable in the bay platforms between peaks (these two trains were the last two to the City from Watford at the end of the am peak, and the first two to Watford from the City at the start of the pm peak).
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Post by tubeprune on May 1, 2008 8:58:42 GMT
We used to stable two trains at Aldgate and one in the Liverpool St bay road. The Liverpool St one was last Amersham to the City in the morning arriving about 09:50 and the first to Amersham in the evening leaving about 16:15. This train (it was train 11 IIRC) and one of those at Aldgate were Baker Street split turns. I used to do them regularly. On one occasion, I had a main line burst at Finchley Road SB with the Liverpool St train. I remember it was raining very hard and the train was very full. Needless to say we never made it to Liverpool St that day. We had to tip out. Several passengers reported a loud banging noise under several cars near Neasden. I think they were quite glad to get off!
I had to get the train into No 4 at Baker St. on Westinghouse only with no ep and the guard giving me a release from the rear. I had a trainee with me and the guard was already passed out for the front so we managed to get away with only a 7 minute delay. The most remarkable feature of it was that we got a "Well done" from a line controller. I found out later a p-way shovel had been left on the track near Neasden and it hit the underneath of the main reservoir, knocking off the drain cock. The escaping air made a hell of a noise.
Do they still have split turns?
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Post by Colin on May 1, 2008 10:32:10 GMT
Do they still have split turns? Absolutely not!  ;D ;D ;D Union agreements put paid to that a long time ago, along with the overtime ban, etc, etc. I suspect train operators today have it pretty cushy by your standards... |
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Post by tubeprune on May 1, 2008 11:57:17 GMT
Do they still have split turns? Absolutely not! ;D ;D ;D Union agreements put paid to that a long time ago, along with the overtime ban, etc, etc. I suspect train operators today have it pretty cushy by your standards... You mean they don't do 3+5 Circles any more?  |
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Post by Colin on May 1, 2008 12:30:53 GMT
I'm going dizzy just thinking about it.....
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towerman
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Post by towerman on May 1, 2008 18:07:52 GMT
There was also one or two at Moorgate,plus out stablers at Ricky & Uxbridge.
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Post by metman on May 1, 2008 22:34:27 GMT
I guess Moorgate was sometimes used by C stock trains during the slack hours (less than it is now I'm sure) for stabling to.
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Post by ruislip on May 2, 2008 3:52:30 GMT
We used to stable two trains at Aldgate and one in the Liverpool St bay road. The Liverpool St one was last Amersham to the City in the morning arriving about 09:50 and the first to Amersham in the evening leaving about 16:15. This train (it was train 11 IIRC) and one of those at Aldgate were Baker Street split turns. I used to do them regularly. On one occasion, I had a main line burst at Finchley Road SB with the Liverpool St train. I remember it was raining very hard and the train was very full. Needless to say we never made it to Liverpool St that day. We had to tip out. Several passengers reported a loud banging noise under several cars near Neasden. I think they were quite glad to get off! I had to get the train into No 4 at Baker St. on Westinghouse only with no ep and the guard giving me a release from the rear. I had a trainee with me and the guard was already passed out for the front so we managed to get away with only a 7 minute delay. The most remarkable feature of it was that we got a "Well done" from a line controller. I found out later a p-way shovel had been left on the track near Neasden and it hit the underneath of the main reservoir, knocking off the drain cock. The escaping air made a hell of a noise. Do they still have split turns? I remember seeing this on your Trainweb.org site. I'm wondering if one of the Aldgate stablers was set number 54 ex-Uxbridge at 0859 (the last Uxbridge-City train running the am peak). One time my mum and I took it from Ruislip to Kings Cross to meet my grandmother at the BR station. On this journey I remember crossing the platform at Harrow-on-the-Hill to catch another train. I don't know if why we had to tip out; but IIRC, a fast ex-Amersham train arrived at HOTH at the same time this Uxbridge train did. Also, what is meant by "split turns"? Does this go back to the days when the P stock worked both the Circle and Uxbridge services? |
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Post by swedishblue on May 2, 2008 7:15:52 GMT
Also, what is meant by "split turns"? Does this go back to the days when the P stock worked both the Circle and Uxbridge services? A split turn was exactly that, a duty of two halves which covered both peak periods. You would come in for the morning part, say from 06.30 until 10.30 then come back for the second half say from 14.30 to 18.30. We used to be rostered these from Monday to Friday and you also got paid for the four hours in the middle, making it a 60 hour week. Also worked out good if you had a Sunday shift on the same week. |
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Post by tubeprune on May 2, 2008 11:48:32 GMT
I remember seeing this on your Trainweb.org site. Yup, that was me, disguised  .Most likely. |
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Post by towerman on May 2, 2008 18:23:39 GMT
On the 70's WTT peak service numbering was Amershams 1-10,Watfords 11-23,Uxbridges 31-55,Chesham shuttle 60.The outstabled trains were all in the 70 series.Offpeak with uncoupling the Amershams were 1,2,61 & 62.Neasden stablers were 21-55.
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Post by ruislip on May 2, 2008 21:06:23 GMT
On the 70's WTT peak service numbering was Amershams 1-10,Watfords 11-23,Uxbridges 31-55,Chesham shuttle 60.The outstabled trains were all in the 70 series.Offpeak with uncoupling the Amershams were 1,2,61 & 62.Neasden stablers were 21-55. I guess binary was in use then (ie, no 8 or 9)? |
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Post by mrfs42 on May 3, 2008 1:01:43 GMT
I guess binary was in use then (ie, no 8 or 9)? C'mon: coded binary: 8 4 2 1 (hours) 32 16 12 8 4 2 1 half (minutes) forenoon, arvo; 8 4 2 1 days
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Post by superteacher on May 3, 2008 15:26:43 GMT
When did the stabling cease in the city - I know it had stopped sometime before the off peak service began to the city in 1990.
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Post by ruislip on May 5, 2008 20:09:01 GMT
Am I correct to assume that there are no longer any between-peaks stablers that sit in one of the platforms at Uxbridge, given the Met has 6tph off-peak and the Piccy 3tph off-peak?
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Post by mrfs42 on May 5, 2008 20:43:49 GMT
Looking at WTT 323 (2/9/07) the abbreviations UXBPF1 UXBPF3 and UXBPF4 are in the galley notes section, for pfms 1,3,4 at Uxbridge; there are no interpeak stablers shewn in either of those locations for this WTT.
These abbreviations came in with WTT 316 (29/9/02), I've scanned through the Rolling Stock working pages of WTT 323 - 293 (2007 - 1990 - got most years) and the last Uxbridge interpeak stablers I can find [in the sidings, not the platforms] were: Train 71 (1035-1530), Train 72 (1005 - 1600) in WTT 299 (3/10/93).
I'll have a delve further back to see if I can find the last interpeak stabler in a platform.
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Post by mrfs42 on May 5, 2008 21:30:10 GMT
Got it!
Well, the last interpeak platform stabler at Uxbridge that I can definitively state to be thus: Train 45 0928½ off Baker Street, into Uxbridge platform 1 1021, stable; forms 1459½ southbound. (from Met No 2 section WTT C237, Mon - Fri, October 1972)
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Post by ruislip on May 5, 2008 22:30:11 GMT
Got it! Well, the last interpeak platform stabler at Uxbridge that I can definitively state to be thus: Train 45 0928½ off Baker Street, into Uxbridge platform 1 1021, stable; forms 1459½ southbound. (from Met No 2 section WTT C237, Mon - Fri, October 1972) didn't that train originate from Aldgate, as I remember riding train 45 in the am to school many a time? It was an Aldgate semifast train if my memory serves me right. Most of my schoolday journeys Hillingdon-Ruislip Manor were on either that train or on Piccadilly train 252 to Cockfosters--which on many occasions was of 1938 TS. |
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Post by mrfs42 on May 5, 2008 23:03:42 GMT
Quite right - was an Aldgate starter - I was reading the TT at the top of the ladder and then typing the information in another room, 45 was SB semi 0832 off Ux. Picc 252 was the 0823½ off Uxbridge (Northfields - Cockfosters changeover train: Nf 0424, Cf 2328).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2008 18:27:21 GMT
Am I correct to assume that there are no longer any between-peaks stablers that sit in one of the platforms at Uxbridge, given the Met has 6tph off-peak and the Piccy 3tph off-peak? Not for some time since the 6tph Met and 3tph Pic off peak services started. As the work in rebuilding Neasden Depot progresses it may be necessary for the 11 daytime stablers be found other accommodation. The sidings at Wembley Park and Uxbridge are favorites with Watford and Rickmansworth possible contenders. Not likely to stable in the City as Aldgate fully used and Moorgate already the backup for Aldgate. |
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jun 14, 2008 21:53:18 GMT
Was there or is there currently a bay road at Liverpool Street. I am 90& sure there is not. I believe there is just a crossover to the west of the station which allows trains from the Aldgate area to terminate there. Is this true? If not then can someone tell me the details of how a train would terminate at Liverpool St. Thanks Uzair PS. I would love to see a Met reverse at Moorgate  |
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Post by Chris M on Jun 14, 2008 22:08:48 GMT
There was a bay road at Liverpool Street, behind the inner rail/westbound platform. The platform is still there (I don't know whether there is any track remaining or not), but it is not connected to the mainline at all.
If you walk to the very western end of the westbound platform you can clearly see where the platform was, and also that there is a crossover immediately west of the station. (I did just this on Thursday!)
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Post by Oracle on Jun 14, 2008 22:40:54 GMT
I distinctly remember the Liverpool St bay platform in the 1970s. The #-over from IR to OR just west/north of the station (in the tunnel) is used when there is engineering work and Circles turn back there empty regrettably. I would love to knock that #=over off my list!
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 15, 2008 14:52:59 GMT
There was a bay road at Liverpool Street, behind the inner rail/westbound platform. The platform is still there (I don't know whether there is any track remaining or not), but it is not connected to the mainline at all. If you walk to the very western end of the westbound platform you can clearly see where the platform was, and also that there is a crossover immediately west of the station. (I did just this on Thursday!) We had a split turn at Baker St which used to stable train 11 there off the Amersham road. There was another which used to pick it up about 16.20 or something like that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2008 18:44:35 GMT
Further to the last couple of posts:
The trailing crossover is not actually in the tunnel, but partially under the overall raft over the station. This crossover has been used in anger during the last 18 months in both directions and in passenger use when the eastbound H&C service terminated during engineering works.
The facing connection from the outer rail to the bay was just inside of the tunnel and the slip connection to the inner rail were outside. A siding was originally provided for the turn over loco during the "Bug" days, a derailer preventing it from leaving the siding against the signal. The track still remains within the bay and can be seen with a little difficulty a few cracks in the long term temporary hording afford a view.
WTT 253 during 1975 had the following City stabling:
Train 11 0854 Amersham - Liverpool St (pfm 3) arr 0950 forms 1617 Amersham.
Train 51 0859 Uxbridge - Aldgate (pfm 3) arr 0956 forms 1606 Uxbridge
Train 25 0900 Watford - Moorgate (pfm3) arr 0957 forms 1604 Watford
Train 30 0910 from Watford - Moorgate (pfm 4) arr 1004 and forms 1615 Watford
Also missed the following:
Train 45 0924 Aldgate - Uxbridge (pfm 1) arr 1019 and forms 1459 Baker Street
Train 24 0833 Baker Street - Watford (pfm 1) arr 0912 and shunts to 21 Siding at 0922 then shunts at 1651 back to pfm 2 and forms 1703 Baker Street
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 15, 2008 20:13:09 GMT
WTT 253 during 1975 had the following City stabling: Train 11 0854 Amersham - Liverpool St (pfm 3) arr 0950 forms 1617 Amersham. Train 51 0859 Uxbridge - Aldgate (pfm 3) arr 0956 forms 1606 Uxbridge Train 25 0900 Watford - Moorgate (pfm3) arr 0957 forms 1604 Watford Train 30 0910 from Watford - Moorgate (pfm 4) arr 1004 and forms 1615 Watford That's the one! Train 51 was also a Baker St split turn in the afternoon. I remember them because I did a lot of splits. I used to get them in exchange for my nights. |
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Post by metman on Jun 15, 2008 21:14:54 GMT
Shame the Liverpool St bay isn't still in use! It would be a welcome addition. The bay in use till the early 80s I think?
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Post by superteacher on Jun 15, 2008 22:11:57 GMT
Shame the Liverpool St bay isn't still in use! It would be a welcome addition. The bay in use till the early 80s I think? Yes, early to mid 80's sounds about right. Not sure how useful it was (or would be now). The peak hour met service to the city is about every 4 mins, and Aldgate and Moorgate can cope with that. Was the Met service more frequent in days gone by? I heard somebody once propose that the old bay road be reinstated, then extended to link with the inner rail east of the station, providing a third track. This would enable circle and Met lines to run direct to Liverpool Street, and causinf less delays to the H&C coming off the north side of the Aldgate triangle. It would also allow trains to be reversed at Liverpool Street from both ends, as the current inner rail platform would become bi-directional, a bit like North Acton on the Central. Would be costly thougn, and require the tunnel to be widened. |
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Post by ruislip on Jun 16, 2008 2:09:20 GMT
WTT 253 during 1975 had the following City stabling: Train 11 0854 Amersham - Liverpool St (pfm 3) arr 0950 forms 1617 Amersham. Train 51 0859 Uxbridge - Aldgate (pfm 3) arr 0956 forms 1606 Uxbridge Train 25 0900 Watford - Moorgate (pfm3) arr 0957 forms 1604 Watford Train 30 0910 from Watford - Moorgate (pfm 4) arr 1004 and forms 1615 Watford I always thought the ex-Uxbridge train was 54 (from my past travels). |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2008 16:41:39 GMT
Shame the Liverpool St bay isn't still in use! It would be a welcome addition. The bay in use till the early 80s I think? The layout would be operational suicide with todays peak service level of 2-2 1/2 mins . A train running into the bay would cross the inner rail and occupy a path on both the outer and inner rails. A departure would also occupy a path on the inner rail, the result is an unbalanced number of paths in both directions beyond Liverpool Street towards Aldgate. |
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;D ;D ;D
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