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Post by yellowsignal on Jul 29, 2006 20:29:44 GMT
What's the point in setting up different works for each line/set of beancounters/company/whatever - Acton worked fine as a central engineering base! Or is that the way the all-important contracts are written ? Look at the D stock refurb, it wasnt done at Acton, was it? The idea is that normal maintenance is done at the local depot and heavy overhaul is done in some other place. The infracos are responsible for this and they will make sure they pick the right (most economical a.k.a. cheap) location for this kind of work. And who (outside metronet) cares where it is done, it is a fixed long-term contract...
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 29, 2006 23:23:39 GMT
Yes, exactly!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 31, 2006 10:00:45 GMT
The article about the 2009 stock on Wikipedia is currently at "London Underground 2005 stock", as there was apparently much debate/confusion about the designation year. Everyone refers to it as 2009 stock, but before I move the page could someone let me know the url of a page on an official website (e.g. LU, TfL, Metronet, Bombardier, the Mayor) or some other official publication, ideally available online, that explicitly refers to it as "2009 stock" (not just "new Victoria Line trains", or "due to be delivered in 2009" or "running from 2009").
Thanks
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2006 17:35:25 GMT
The article about the 2009 stock on Wikipedia is currently at "London Underground 2005 stock", as there was apparently much debate/confusion about the designation year. Everyone refers to it as 2009 stock, but before I move the page could someone let me know the url of a page on an official website (e.g. LU, TfL, Metronet, Bombardier, the Mayor) or some other official publication, ideally available online, that explicitly refers to it as "2009 stock" (not just "new Victoria Line trains", or "due to be delivered in 2009" or "running from 2009"). Thanks The extensive article in Modern Railways July 2006 edition calls it the 2009 stock. Wandered past the mock up today trying to be "market researched" and failed miserably.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 2, 2006 3:54:57 GMT
The article about the 2009 stock on Wikipedia is currently at "London Underground 2005 stock", as there was apparently much debate/confusion about the designation year. Everyone refers to it as 2009 stock, but before I move the page could someone let me know the url of a page on an official website (e.g. LU, TfL, Metronet, Bombardier, the Mayor) or some other official publication, ideally available online, that explicitly refers to it as "2009 stock" (not just "new Victoria Line trains", or "due to be delivered in 2009" or "running from 2009"). Thanks I haven't been able to locate any proof for you - but I would say that a stock's designated year is that of planned introduction, and is decided at the time it's ordered from it's manufacturer, so it is definite and won't change. I do appreciate the need to have it stated officially for the purposes of your usage though - hopefully something will come up soon that you can use....
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Aug 2, 2006 8:44:31 GMT
but I would say that a stock's designated year is that of planned introduction Historically it always was the case but with one exception from memory in the modern era, namely the C77 Stock, it never seems to have coincided.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2006 9:27:41 GMT
but I would say that a stock's designated year is that of planned introduction Historically it always was the case but with one exception from memory in the modern ear, namely the C77 Stock, it never seems to have coincided. Don't forget the A60/62 stock as well! Do sub-surface stocks operate under a different convention or something then?
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Aug 2, 2006 10:26:59 GMT
I have to tread carefully here and therefore with utmost respect and acknowledgement of the point you make reply that I said 'modern' era..I am only too aware that this would not apply to 1956, 1959, 1960 and 1962TS and A60/62 Stock. I should add that I carefully chose the word 'modern' but on reflection could have clarified it better to say since the mid-Sixties, or even early Seventies?
When I was Editor of UndergrounD magazine in trhe late Seventies/early Eighties it was acknowledged by my LURS colleagues who were also authors (Hardy, Croome, Conner, et al) that although the Stock date was supposed to coincide with the year of introduction this had not been the case with that one exception for years. It remains the same today I believe. For example the D78 stock was built and introduced well after 1978: 16th January 1980 introduction date is suggested I see.
I therefore stand by my agreement with our esteemed Colin!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 3, 2006 2:50:03 GMT
Historically it always was the case but with one exception from memory in the modern ear, namely the C77 Stock, it never seems to have coincided. Don't forget the A60/62 stock as well! Do sub-surface stocks operate under a different convention or something then? And also the four 96ts (and 7th cars) all built and delivered in 2005 ;D ;D............. The A62 & C77 stocks are seperate to their respective 'relatives', the A60 & C69, but are almost always referred to as the later because it's easier. The reason for the later year is that they were an extra, seperate order on top of the original fleets. I know nothing about the A stock, but the C69's and C77's are actually very different - the biggest difference is that the C69's were built to imperial measurements, whilst the C77's are metric! There are other, smaller things like the C77's have 2 MA indicator lights verse's the C69's 1. Saying all that, certainly the C stocks (but I expect it applies equally to the A stocks), can be coupled regardless of the actual units build year - so it's more than possible to have a train made up of C69-C77-C69, for example. As for sub surface stocks having a different "convention" - yes they do! Tube stocks are only ever referred to by their year of anticipated entry into service, where as the sub surface stocks are generally only ever referred to by their letter [though officially they have the letter, followed by the year of anticipated entry into service]. So, we currently have: 67ts - Victoria line 72ts - Bakerloo line 73ts - Piccadilly line 92ts - Central / Waterloo & City lines 95ts - Northern line 96ts - Jubilee line A Stock (A60 & A62) - Metropolitan / East London lines C Stock (C69 & C77) - Circle / H&C / District lines D Stock (D78) - District line
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2006 6:35:21 GMT
Ah, I knew about the xxts and Lxx system but forgot that the sub-surface stocks were part of different orders. Still, the new 1996 trains were ordered in 2005 but are considered 1996 stock, so there must be some ideal working on the trains now that wasn't 'back in the day'? Oh, and Victoria is 67ts Edit by Colin: Slip of the keyboard - that's my excuse and i'm sticking to it ;DNow corrected.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Aug 3, 2006 8:31:34 GMT
Of course in the past it was 1972 Stock Mk 1 and 1972 Stock Mk 11..did we ever say 'ts' back then? Or was it 1972 Mk 1 Stock and 1972 Mk 11 Stock? I am sure it was thw latter now. Different builds, different production periods.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 4, 2006 22:24:22 GMT
We don't use 'ts' officially, it seems to be just a forum thing.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 4, 2006 23:49:09 GMT
Our rolling stock engineers tend to use TS as an abbreviation as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2006 16:03:45 GMT
The TS abbreviation is used on some signage around the system as well such as "95TS stop here" boards in the six-foot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2006 21:49:41 GMT
Going back to size matters, surely for safety reasons they should be made to fit in the Piccadilly tunnels. Taking many possible problems that could occur down there into account, having the one and only exit doesn't seem too clever to me!!?
However, I travelled on the Vic at 10pm for a while, and the space was quite minimal then, so I know a few inches will make that bit of difference!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 6, 2006 10:11:05 GMT
The TS abbreviation is used on some signage around the system as well such as "95TS stop here" boards in the six-foot. I did not know that! You learn something new everyday.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 6, 2006 10:19:03 GMT
Going back to size matters, surely for safety reasons they should be made to fit in the Piccadilly tunnels. Taking many possible problems that could occur down there into account, having the one and only exit doesn't seem too clever to me!!? The link is there for stock transfer and in order to allow engineers trains access. Since the amount of stock transfer we have done over the years has been minimal (at best) and generally for superfluous reasons it isn't really required for 09ts. I can't see a safety benefit/disbenefit in losing the link for 09ts at all. If a train were to become stalled directly in front of the points (a miracle in itself) and was unable to continue on the Vic line, using the link would still not be considered. There are a whole host of reasons that would rule out the use of the Picc link in an emergency, not least lack of road training/no pilotman. It just wouldn't be an option. However, I travelled on the Vic at 10pm for a while, and the space was quite minimal then, so I know a few inches will make that bit of difference! It really does. You really notice the extra space when you walk into the car.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Aug 6, 2006 23:12:42 GMT
Will any of the 09TS be fitted with de-icing gear for sweeping the depot?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2006 17:11:40 GMT
It really does. You really notice the extra space when you walk into the car. Having a quick look at the mock up today as a mate i was with wanted a butchers, I must admit it looks the dogs ball hooks! And you can certainly notice the space difference. Just make the seats softer and you will have a flippin' good train there. Anyway I shall have look in depth on wednesday!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2006 18:08:26 GMT
Just make the seats softer and you will have a flippin' good train there. I went to have a look today, and I commented to the staff there that the seats were too hard. The response was that they were more upright and intended to improve passengers' posture! Also they said the average journey on the Vic is 13 minutes, which will fall to 11 when all the upgrades are done, so the seats don't need to be comfy. I then caught the Met from Euston Sq and I have to say you can't beat the A stock for comfy seats!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2006 18:12:54 GMT
I then caught the Met from Euston Sq and I have to say you can't beat the A stock for comfy seats! Aye, you cant beat them.
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Post by CSLR on Aug 7, 2006 19:41:47 GMT
I went to have a look today, and I commented to the staff there that the seats were too hard. The response was that they were more upright and intended to improve passengers' posture! Also they said the average journey on the Vic is 13 minutes, which will fall to 11 when all the upgrades are done, so the seats don't need to be comfy. That is not market research. Responses like that suggest that the exercise is an attempt to justify decisions that have already been made. It is very bad PR. If Mr Average went back to his office and reported to his colleagues that "They did not want to listen to my comments, they just told me I was wrong", then it surely achieves the complete opposite of what is intended.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2006 19:44:33 GMT
That is not market research. Responses like that suggest that the exercise is an attempt to justify decisions that have already been made. It is very bad PR. If Mr Average went back to his office and reported to his colleagues that "They did not want to listen to my comments, they just told me I was wrong", then it surely achieves the complete opposite of what is intended. I think I knew more than the bloke as he tried to say there was going to be a type of air on on the train!! In your dreams!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 7, 2006 20:09:53 GMT
I went to have a look today, and I commented to the staff there that the seats were too hard. The response was that they were more upright and intended to improve passengers' posture! Also they said the average journey on the Vic is 13 minutes, which will fall to 11 when all the upgrades are done, so the seats don't need to be comfy. That is not market research. Responses like that suggest that the exercise is an attempt to justify decisions that have already been made. It is very bad PR. If Mr Average went back to his office and reported to his colleagues that "They did not want to listen to my comments, they just told me I was wrong", then it surely achieves the complete opposite of what is intended. Your right, this isn't market research. This isn't CAT, or any other type of information gathering exercise. This is an opportunity for the general public to view the 09ts mock-up and have any questions answered by trained assistants. Metronet have completed their CAT and are now allowing the public to walk in off the street, don't confuse this with market research of any kind.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 7, 2006 20:11:27 GMT
That is not market research. Responses like that suggest that the exercise is an attempt to justify decisions that have already been made. It is very bad PR. If Mr Average went back to his office and reported to his colleagues that "They did not want to listen to my comments, they just told me I was wrong", then it surely achieves the complete opposite of what is intended. I think I knew more than the bloke as he tried to say there was going to be a type of air on on the train!! In your dreams! There is a type of air on the 09, it's forced air! Perhaps thats what he was eluding to?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2006 20:19:23 GMT
There is a type of air on the 09, it's forced air! Perhaps thats what he was eluding to? Yeah I know that, but he was going on about how it will have a better system as it will have a form of air conditioning. In my mind he should say that because people will think that the trains will have air con, and when they come into service they will be let down!
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Post by CSLR on Aug 7, 2006 20:48:37 GMT
Your right, this isn't market research. This isn't CAT, or any other type of information gathering exercise. This is an opportunity for the general public to view the 09ts mock-up and have any questions answered by trained assistants. Metronet have completed their CAT and are now allowing the public to walk in off the street, don't confuse this with market research of any kind. Thank you for clarifying that point. Several members have referred to this exercise as market research and that is what I believed was happening. One point that I would comment on is that "trained assistants" should still be aware of the impact of what they say. I believe that the most passengers use public transport as a means of getting from A to B, not as a means of improving their posture. If such a statement had been made to me, my response would have been, "If such a course of action is now within the remit of the railway company, what action is being taken to improve the posture of the greater number of people who are required to stand?"
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Post by dave1 on Aug 7, 2006 20:56:02 GMT
how far is the prototype construction going? have they started the static testing?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 7, 2006 21:06:06 GMT
There is a type of air on the 09, it's forced air! Perhaps thats what he was eluding to? Yeah I know that, but he was going on about how it will have a better system as it will have a form of air conditioning. In my mind he should say that because people will think that the trains will have air con, and when they come into service they will be let down! Yea, thats just wrong! The forced air system is quite clever in how it operates but it is in no way air con!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 7, 2006 21:11:46 GMT
Your right, this isn't market research. This isn't CAT, or any other type of information gathering exercise. This is an opportunity for the general public to view the 09ts mock-up and have any questions answered by trained assistants. Metronet have completed their CAT and are now allowing the public to walk in off the street, don't confuse this with market research of any kind. Thank you for clarifying that point. Several members have referred to this exercise as market research and that is what I believed was happening. One point that I would comment on is that "trained assistants" should still be aware of the impact of what they say. I believe that the most passengers use public transport as a means of getting from A to B, not as a means of improving their posture. If such a statement had been made to me, my response would have been, "If such a course of action is now within the remit of the railway company, what action is being taken to improve the posture of the greater number of people who are required to stand?" From what Met Svc Op has said it seems like these people are using a bit of artistic license, which is clearly wrong. The idea of using an outside agency for the public days was to try and present an unbiased overview of the train. We do now have to take into account things such as human factors which includes seat design, but I don't think that these seats will cure your bad back if you ride on the Vic! For standing customers I think we are just going to crush load you and thus force you to stand upright. I'm just kidding! ;D
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