towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 15, 2008 20:55:08 GMT
100-099 now out of TFOS signed off and in service,034-033 now signed off and in service,080-081 now stopped in TFOS for retro fitting,094-093 now stopped for retro fitting.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 18, 2008 1:11:50 GMT
056-055 now signed off and in service,002-001 now stopped for retro fitting.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 19, 2008 19:47:15 GMT
080-081 now out of TFOS signed off and in service,094-093 now signed off and in service,060-059 now stopped for retro fitting in TFOS,008-007 now stopped for retro fitting,070-069 now off DCA.
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Post by DrOne on Dec 20, 2008 0:28:47 GMT
Let's just say we've heard whispers that the best the Jubilee can hope for by the Olympics is ATP not full ATO. And will that result in a tangible difference to line speeds, tph, turnaround capacity or any other aspects of the service as they are now? Surely they can't even contemplate the Northern works if they can't execute this upgrade by the Olympics. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2008 15:02:40 GMT
^ I agree with that. What exactly are the problems that they're having? I'm tempted to think how hard can it be, but that's a typical ignorant member of the public response.  |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 20, 2008 21:34:57 GMT
They're having problems with the trains picking up the track codes,the system works fine on the DLR,but the DLR doesn't have a negi rail or cast iron tunnels.Basically there's too much interference.
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Post by londonstuff on Dec 20, 2008 22:36:53 GMT
Does the Central Line not also have negative rails and cast iron tunnels?
But then, wasn't that beset with problems too? Didn't live in London then but vaguely remember hearing about it...
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 20, 2008 23:35:02 GMT
Unless I've misunderstood the Jubilee installation, it cannot be compared to the Central (or indeed Victoria) line because it is a completely different set-up.......
Both the Central & Victoria lines transmit codes to trains via the running rails - the Jubilee line uses wires and transmits codes radio style (ie no physical contact between the wire and the train).
My apologies in advance if my understanding is wrong.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 21, 2008 7:44:48 GMT
That's right,if you look in the track on the Jubilee you'll see two orange wires either side of the negative rail,this is supposed to give the train it's information to decide what is the max safe line speed.
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Post by DrOne on Dec 21, 2008 10:05:21 GMT
So may I repeat my question to anyone who knows? And will that [ATP] result in a tangible difference to line speeds, tph, turnaround capacity or any other aspects of the service as they are now? |
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 21, 2008 10:26:40 GMT
So may I repeat my question to anyone who knows? And will that [ATP] result in a tangible difference to line speeds, tph, turnaround capacity or any other aspects of the service as they are now? Well, I don't have the data but the Jubilee is currently constrained by the signal spacing to 24 trains per hour (tph). In theory, the Seltrac S40 should be able to get over 30 tph. However, the actual number will be affected by train length, speed, acceleration and braking, dwell times and terminal capacity. Some of this is driver reliant but, from my own observations, the terminals present the biggest constraint because of the slow run-ins. This includes the intermediate turnbacks like Willesden Green. If you have to sit for 2 minutes outside Willesden Green while the staff check every car, you ain't going to get more than 20 tph, regardless of the new whizz bang signalling. Time to rethink the detrainment policy methinks. |
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Post by astock5000 on Dec 21, 2008 12:42:31 GMT
Some of this is driver reliant but, from my own observations, the terminals present the biggest constraint because of the slow run-ins. This includes the intermediate turnbacks like Willesden Green. If you have to sit for 2 minutes outside Willesden Green while the staff check every car, you ain't going to get more than 20 tph, regardless of the new whizz bang signalling. Time to rethink the detrainment policy methinks. But won't less trains terminate at Willesden Green and Wembley Park when the new platrform at Stanmore is ready, so it won't be so much of a problem? Maybe there are too many places where trains reverse in sidings (not just on the Jubilee, but on other lines as well), and track layouts should be changed so that trains can reverse in the platforms |
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Post by d7666 on Dec 21, 2008 14:00:42 GMT
Exactly right ... thats the whole point of Stanmore 3rd platform.
And hint: watch ITV ''London Tonight'' tonight ... or at least thats when I think it'll go out ...
--
Nick
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 21, 2008 15:22:05 GMT
Some of this is driver reliant but, from my own observations, the terminals present the biggest constraint because of the slow run-ins. This includes the intermediate turnbacks like Willesden Green. If you have to sit for 2 minutes outside Willesden Green while the staff check every car, you ain't going to get more than 20 tph, regardless of the new whizz bang signalling. Time to rethink the detrainment policy methinks. But won't less trains terminate at Willesden Green and Wembley Park when the new platrform at Stanmore is ready, so it won't be so much of a problem? Maybe there are too many places where trains reverse in sidings (not just on the Jubilee, but on other lines as well), and track layouts should be changed so that trains can reverse in the platforms What, no Wembley Park reversers during the peak? Well OK, if that's the plan, you might get 30 tph through 3 platforms at Stanmore but they tried it at Morden and gave up, didn't they? |
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Post by astock5000 on Dec 21, 2008 15:46:09 GMT
What, no Wembley Park reversers during the peak? Well OK, if that's the plan, you might get 30 tph through 3 platforms at Stanmore but they tried it at Morden and gave up, didn't they? I didn't say that all trains would run to Stanmore. How many trains can you run to a three platform terminus (how many run to Morden now)? |
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Post by norfolkdave on Dec 21, 2008 18:26:14 GMT
I believe the Jubilee is just getting a signalling upgrade,the Northern is more complicated as,like the Central,it also involves some track remodelling.As for other lines the plan is for all lines to be ATO by 2020ish,the Picc will probably be the last to be done.Some drivers prefer to drive,some prefer to let the train do the work. Isnt it going to be boring just sitting there doing nothing, I found my time as a guard on the 38s and other stock boring inbetween stations and my head would begin to droop as tiredness would set in, but when we had driving days there was constant alertness, but if your not doing anything it gets tiring, so what will thses guys be doing with no deadman to hold then! |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 21, 2008 20:03:33 GMT
What, no Wembley Park reversers during the peak? Well OK, if that's the plan, you might get 30 tph through 3 platforms at Stanmore but they tried it at Morden and gave up, didn't they? I didn't say that all trains would run to Stanmore. How many trains can you run to a three platform terminus (how many run to Morden now)? The upgrade plans only envisage 30tph between North Greenwich & Willesden Green. |
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 21, 2008 21:42:48 GMT
I didn't say that all trains would run to Stanmore. How many trains can you run to a three platform terminus (how many run to Morden now)? The upgrade plans only envisage 30tph between North Greenwich & Willesden Green. Ah, as I thought. N Greenwich shouldn't be a problem because the station was originally designed for a full speed run in to the centre reversing platform. Willesden Green is different. So, if you have a 30 tph service, you can't spend more than 40 seconds dwell at each station without delaying the following train. So, whatever the plans are, you have to keep the dwells down to 40s. This will mean tipping out at Willesden Green will restrict throughput unless you can get all the punters off the train and get moving in less than 40s. OK, you might get away with 45s. It depends whether you use the LU braking formula of something a bit more realistic. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 12:25:29 GMT
Maybe put in lit and fenced catwalks either side of the reversing siding at Willesden Green with signs saying 'do not alight here, train reversing'? Then if anyone disregards the detraining announcement and fails to alight in the 20 second stop they get carried into the siding and have to wait for the train to reverse back into service. Surely that arrangement would deal with any H&S concerns about panicked passengers using emergency door releases.
As stated a layout like North Greenwich or Seven Sisters is ideal for mid-line reversals. I believe the Paris Metro - the perfect exponent of high-frequency services - don't have any significant short workings, and all reversals are on the basis of 'get off quickly' or you wait while the train goes round the loop or into the reversing sidings beyond the platform - I can't remember seeing tipping out used in Paris, unless my memory's faulty?
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Post by londonstuff on Dec 22, 2008 12:44:58 GMT
I think that's fair enough - get off quickly or go into the sidings or loop. Mind you, that may encourage the train fans to stay on to say they've been into the sidings, etc! I heard someone say once they'd stayed in the Kennington Loop for 10 minutes once after they didn't get off.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 13:08:57 GMT
The reason that the detrainment procedure is so thorough is because a passenger decided to go through the communicating doors on a Central Line train at Liverpool Street in a panic whilst the train was reversing. Needless to say, there was an accident and the Railway Inspectorate imposed a more thorough procedure.
I wonder whether this will be relaxed with S-stock because the passengers can't really injure themselves whilst moving carriages.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 24, 2008 0:05:50 GMT
002-001 & 070-069 now signed off and in service,060-059 now out of TFOS,086-023 now stopped for retro fitting in TFOS,126-125 now stopped for retro fitting.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 5, 2009 21:52:44 GMT
122-121 now stopped for retro fitting.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 7, 2009 2:48:40 GMT
126-125 now signed off and in service,068-067 now stopped for retro fitting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 10:11:59 GMT
I didn't say that all trains would run to Stanmore. How many trains can you run to a three platform terminus (how many run to Morden now)? Stanmore has dead end platforms, and thus would likely have a lower approach speed and thus lower capacity than Morden. Morden can handle 30tph as long as trains arrive on time and are evenly spaced. Unrelaibility on the rest of the line has probably been the cause of the required reduction in capacity rather than Morden's terminus design. The reason that the detrainment procedure is so thorough is because a passenger decided to go through the communicating doors on a Central Line train at Liverpool Street in a panic whilst the train was reversing. This could happen between any station, not just in reversing sidings. If it happened between stations would the HSE have just banned passengers completely? |
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 7, 2009 10:26:38 GMT
I didn't say that all trains would run to Stanmore. How many trains can you run to a three platform terminus (how many run to Morden now)? Stanmore has dead end platforms, and thus would likely have a lower approach speed and thus lower capacity than Morden. Morden can handle 30tph as long as trains arrive on time and are evenly spaced. Unrelaibility on the rest of the line has probably been the cause of the required reduction in capacity rather than Morden's terminus design. The reason that the detrainment procedure is so thorough is because a passenger decided to go through the communicating doors on a Central Line train at Liverpool Street in a panic whilst the train was reversing. This could happen between any station, not just in reversing sidings. If it happened between stations would the HSE have just banned passengers completely? Probably. I think the tip-out rules are causing more problems than they solve. I think LU should get into a dialogue with HMRI and show them what their rule is doing to throughput. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 7, 2009 19:14:28 GMT
I think care would be needed if this rule were changed - it may be ok to just do a PA and go off to the sidings if a driver is changing ends, but if the train is being stabled it really ought to be checked first!
How would a change in the ruling stand versus carrying passengers over shunt only moves (ie, the points don't require the same legalities of locking as Green signal moves)? How did the land lie before the current tip out ruling came into effect?
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 7, 2009 19:36:23 GMT
004-003 now stopped for retro fitting.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 8, 2009 19:48:34 GMT
122-121 now signed off and in service,086-023 now out of TFOS,062-061 now stopped in TFOS for retro fitting.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 9, 2009 3:47:18 GMT
006-005 now stopped for retro fitting.
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