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Post by Chris W on Apr 20, 2006 11:35:57 GMT
Gents Is it me or do VL drivers literally charge into stations and would appear to only start braking about 10 meters from the end of the platform.....  Ok I'm exagerating.... its probably nearer to 12 metres.....  Anyone standing facing the way they're traveling beside a door and not hanging on somewhere ends up having to peal their face off of the glass on the opposite side of the doorway (assuming no-one's in the way) once the train COSHES to a stop   Its not once or occasionally... its every station!!! I'm working in my new firm's West End office today, traveling between Stockwell and Green Park and both yesterday and this morning the driver seemed to start braking at the last moment Or am I just used to the careful driving on the DL ;D ;D |
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Post by Tomcakes on Apr 20, 2006 11:40:28 GMT
Ahem... the Victoria line uses ATO . |
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Post by Chris W on Apr 20, 2006 12:20:27 GMT
Ahem... the Victoria line uses ATO . In which case the ATO system brakes at the last moment What does the TO do then...... just monitor and take over when the system is not operating correctly......  Is this system going to be rolled out thoughout the tube network....? |
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Post by CSLR on Apr 20, 2006 12:35:32 GMT
This ties in with something that has recently been discussed in another thread.
Some years ago, there was a motorman on 38ts on the Northern who would drive a few stations on Westinghouse "to get the feel of the brake" and would then do incredibly fast stops.
He knew his stations and his braking system so, once he had established the way a particular train reacted, he would apply the brake at seemingly impossible places by throwing everything into full emergency Westinghouse. He could almost stop on a sixpence and rarely over or under-shot by a measurable amount. I once saw him perform this trick against a red semi - something that is a true test of confidence in one's ability.
For anyone who is concerned about these comments in a public forum, I would add that neither he nor 38ts are with us any longer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2006 13:04:41 GMT
What does the TO do then...... just monitor and take over when the system is not operating correctly...... Opens and closes the doors and presses the start buttons, then is there to get it going if the ATO has a bad hair day! AND yes it leaves it to the last possible moment to stop! |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Apr 20, 2006 13:42:40 GMT
Shame on you chris - the Viccy has been ATO since the day it opened in the 1960's!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Christopher J on Apr 20, 2006 15:01:37 GMT
The thing I don't like about the ATO on the Vic is that the brake isn't reduced down to a minimum application or Off & Release upon coming to a stand so the Train comes up in a heap on hard braking at nearly every station, which is very discomforting.
It's even more discomforting when the T/op has to cosh it to stop the train where it should and you end up down the other end of the car you‘re in.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2006 18:47:10 GMT
The thing I don't like about the ATO on the Vic is that the brake isn't reduced down to a minimum application or Off & Release upon coming to a stand so the Train comes up in a heap on hard braking at nearly every station, which is very discomforting. This makes a big difference to passenger comfort. If you break hard but go to off and release before stopping it is much smoother. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2006 19:12:58 GMT
The thing I don't like about the ATO on the Vic is that the brake isn't reduced down to a minimum application or Off & Release upon coming to a stand so the Train comes up in a heap on hard braking at nearly every station, which is very discomforting. This makes a big difference to passenger comfort. If you break hard but go to off and release before stopping it is much smoother. Perhaps you should comment to Bombardier's ATO software programmers this little piece of info?  |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Apr 20, 2006 20:25:23 GMT
As said before on this forum,1kc equates to 10mph,if the train enters the station just below the speed for the first couple of brake commands,when it does hit one it may be doing almost 30mph and the command is for 20mph.Hence the sharp brake.
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Post by Tomcakes on Apr 20, 2006 20:50:36 GMT
This makes a big difference to passenger comfort. If you break hard but go to off and release before stopping it is much smoother. Perhaps you should comment to Bombardier's ATO software programmers this little piece of info? Is the ATO on the Victoria controlled by software? I thought it was a bunch of electrical circuits, rather than being controlled by a computer. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2006 20:55:54 GMT
Yeah, its ran by coded pulses through the rails!, summat like 180 - 240 codes a minute is normal running, 120 - 180 is braking sequence, or summat like that. Not exactly sure of the correct code figures, but I recall reading/hearing these.
You want fast driving eh??? take a trip to Epping and get a westbounder back to Theydon Bois...
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 20, 2006 21:25:50 GMT
120, 180, 270 and 420 pulses per minute.
120 - Not recognised by train
180 - Coasting to 22mph
270 - Motoring to 22mph
420 - Full line speed (47mph)
Braking is done by command spots ranging from 5.5kc/s (55mph) to 0.8kc/s (8mph) but normally once the train's Auto Driver Box picks up the first few it knows where it is and locks onto a pre-programmed braking curve.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2006 21:45:12 GMT
Will the Neo Auto Driver Boxes use the same detection method?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2006 22:43:32 GMT
the 180 code on the vic line means that either the station starter is at danger or the signal that the train is aproaching is at danger, at a station if the driver has a 180 code , he/she can push the ato buttons all day but the train wont go anywhere |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2006 10:24:04 GMT
The thing I don't like about the ATO on the Vic is that the brake isn't reduced down to a minimum application or Off & Release upon coming to a stand so the Train comes up in a heap on hard braking at nearly every station, which is very discomforting. Its the same for the central line, its just that it doesnt feel so bad as the Vic! |
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Post by CSLR on Apr 21, 2006 12:10:43 GMT
The thing I don't like about the ATO on the Vic is that the brake isn't reduced down to a minimum application or Off & Release upon coming to a stand so the Train comes up in a heap on hard braking at nearly every station, which is very discomforting. Its the same for the central line, its just that it doesnt feel so bad as the Vic! We were discussing the subject of driving techniques in another thread earlier this month and it was mentioned how some motormen would take great pride in throwing off the brake at exactly the right moment to allow the train to come to a gentle stand without any bump at all. The problem with ATO is that would anyone be allowed to design a system that would allow a train to approach a red stick (or equivalent) and then allow it to roll to a stop with the brakes completely off? This is the sort of situation where some human input gives a better ride than contemporary automation. |
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Post by trainopd78 on Apr 21, 2006 13:08:40 GMT
The thing I don't like about the ATO on the Vic is that the brake isn't reduced down to a minimum application or Off & Release upon coming to a stand so the Train comes up in a heap on hard braking at nearly every station, which is very discomforting. Its the same for the central line, its just that it doesnt feel so bad as the Vic! We were discussing the subject of driving techniques in another thread earlier this month and it was mentioned how some motormen would take great pride in throwing off the brake at exactly the right moment to allow the train to come to a gentle stand without any bump at all. The problem with ATO is that would anyone be allowed to design a system that would allow a train to approach a red stick (or equivalent) and then allow it to roll to a stop with the brakes completely off? This is the sort of situation where some human input gives a better ride than contemporary automation. I must admit, there's something satisfying about a train coming to a final stop in off and release, especially when that train is a c stock. With a D stock its much easier to judge, but C's are just that little bit more unpredictable. |
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Post by Chris W on Apr 21, 2006 13:31:00 GMT
Shame on you chris - the Viccy has been ATO since the day it opened in the 1960's!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  ;D ;D ;D  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2006 14:58:36 GMT
I must admit, there's something satisfying about a train coming to a final stop in off and release, especially when that train is a c stock. With a D stock its much easier to judge, but C's are just that little bit more unpredictable. As we all know too well!  |
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Post by setttt on Apr 21, 2006 15:06:08 GMT
This is the sort of situation where some human input gives a better ride than contemporary automation. Seeing as the brake notches on the controller are 'live' in ATO mode (on the 67s), perhaps the system could be adjusted so that the ATO cuts out a few yards from the end of the platform, leaving the driver to bring the train to a smooth stop? No idea if that would be possible - just a thought. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2006 15:29:04 GMT
Seeing as the brake notches on the controller are 'live' in ATO mode (on the 67s), perhaps the system could be adjusted so that the ATO cuts out a few yards from the end of the platform, leaving the driver to bring the train to a smooth stop? No idea if that would be possible - just a thought. *Unless* they were very clever, the transition from ATO to manual driving would probably cause an emergency brake application. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Apr 21, 2006 19:16:26 GMT
This is the sort of situation where some human input gives a better ride than contemporary automation. Seeing as the brake notches on the controller are 'live' in ATO mode (on the 67s), perhaps the system could be adjusted so that the ATO cuts out a few yards from the end of the platform, leaving the driver to bring the train to a smooth stop? No idea if that would be possible - just a thought. But the vigilance required of a driver (if, as said by MA, it was technically possible) would be even greater than full manual: it would also increase stopping times and negate the whole point of ATO. Sensible idea in theory, but a shedload of practical problems. However, if the system was allowed to go from (the equivalent of) notch 2 to notch 1 in the last couple of metres, the effect would be back to that of stopping on a rising brake (comfort) yet still maintain all safety features. Probably less to modify too. |
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Post by CSLR on Apr 21, 2006 20:05:01 GMT
However, if the system was allowed to go from (the equivalent of) notch 2 to notch 1 in the last couple of metres, the effect would be back to that of stopping on a rising brake (comfort) yet still maintain all safety features. Probably less to modify too. That sound so logical that I must ask, why is it not done that way? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2006 23:16:59 GMT
I suspect it hearkens back to the original design of the Auto Driver Boxes and the mercury brake application sensors, which would probably not behave in the right way to allow a notch 2-notch 1 brake release.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2006 23:20:43 GMT
I suspect it hearkens back to the original design of the Auto Driver Boxes and the mercury brake application sensors, which would probably not behave in the right way to allow a notch 2-notch 1 brake release. There has been timetable notices for "New Auto Box Trials" on The Vic so anythings possible! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2006 0:07:08 GMT
The problem with ATO is that would anyone be allowed to design a system that would allow a train to approach a red stick (or equivalent) and then allow it to roll to a stop with the brakes completley off a vic driver is perfectly entitled to move the tbc to off and release as the train is about to come to a stop, thus preventing british rail stops :-) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2006 0:18:38 GMT
The Sydney rail system comes in for a lot of (horribly uninformed) criticism from public and media, but the drivers are good at releasing the brakes to give a gentle stop. They even manage it at a station that's on a 1 in 50 grade.
Probably just as well, as all the cars are double-deck and there are people using the stairs as the train stops.
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Post by CSLR on Apr 22, 2006 9:28:11 GMT
a vic driver is perfectly entitled to move the tbc to off and release as the train is about to come to a stop, thus preventing british rail stops :-) I agree that a combination of automatic operation coupled with human intervention gives a smooth stop. The question remains why this cannot be achieved solely with ATO. It appears that this is a due to the present limitations of both 'systems'. Members of this forum have previously commented that ATO can drive faster and brake later than a T/O would dare. I suspect that the reverse is also true in some cases. I believe that a human operator can bring a train to a stand with the brakes off at places where present day ATO equipment would not dare (or be allowed) to. Although ATO has advanced considerably, we are still in a learning curve and there are odd rough edges that have to be smoothed, while still maintaining a tight schedule. |
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Post by prjb on Apr 24, 2006 21:41:02 GMT
It's even more discomforting when the T/op has to cosh it to stop the train where it should and you end up down the other end of the car you‘re in. In reality, it is extremely rare that a T'Op on the Vic actually has to intervene to stop in the right place. Having never worked on the Vic, I spent some time out on the line when I joined the VLU project. I went out with an experienced I'Op who never touched the CTBC once. He explained it is generally inexperienced T'Ops or those who lack confidence/knowledge of the system that feel the need to go into emergency on the ATO's behalf. He went on to say that if a 67 is going to miss the mark, it does it by a whole trains length and not by a few metres!! |
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Its not once or occasionally... its every station!!!
