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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2006 10:04:38 GMT
Perhaps this should be in the rant area, but can anything be done about this tinyurl.com/j2k2jBloody grafiti morons. |
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Post by c5 on Jun 11, 2006 10:11:59 GMT
Perhaps ebay will pass these details onto BTP, as they seem to have provided the evidence
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2006 10:14:46 GMT
I would pass it to BTP myself if I knew how to.
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Post by agoodcuppa on Jun 11, 2006 10:49:18 GMT
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Post by Chris W on Jun 11, 2006 11:01:54 GMT
Ok guys I've just signed up to e-bay and reported the advertisement - the e-mail I sent is as follows: Graffiti Photo/Photos CD - Over Ten Thousand Images
A Digital Jungle, N-igma, Location 12 Photo Archive Item number: 7417895622
You need to be aware that this item is promoting illegal activity, namely vandalism of London Underground trains and equipment - the seller, an 'iamdek ( 1319Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)' is also trying to sell '25 x Tube Photos (Graffiti London Underground) Trains
@@@@@@ Reprinted from my personal collection @@@@@@
Item number: 7419454943'
The seller reports that he lives in South London and typically people who trade in these items are often the same people who commit the actions they are 'selling' images of.
For your information I shall also be passing on this information to London Underground
Please do not hesitate to contact me if you need to discuss this matter further
Now the next question - the best method of reporting this matter to LU?  ADVICE PLEASE update - I've just recieved a report code of '(KMM34684362V23647L0KM)' with the e-mail stating: " We understand the importance and serious nature of your question and
will do all within our power to answer your specific enquiry within 24
hours of receipt of this mail." I will of course give further updates UPDATE 1 - I have now reported the items and details of the seller to BT Police & LU Customer services on number (see reply below - thanks Colin) Regards Chris |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 11, 2006 11:38:46 GMT
Customer services: 0845 330 9880
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Post by agoodcuppa on Jun 11, 2006 13:35:54 GMT
I've also passed the item number to BTP.
Let's hope the litlle s**t gets nicked.
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Post by agoodcuppa on Jun 11, 2006 20:10:25 GMT
Just been to check and the item has ended. ;D  I wonder who by? |
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Post by delticdave on Jun 11, 2006 21:07:17 GMT
Just been to check and the item has ended. ;D I wonder who by? I just did likewise. I don't normally think evil to anyone anymore, but this is one very sick person at work. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2006 21:11:10 GMT
Just been to check and the item has ended. ;D I wonder who by? The listing ended because it had run it's time on display. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2006 22:00:27 GMT
Near to where I am staying here in Kent, there's a shop selling 'art materials' it isnt until you enter the shop and find its not your regular Printworks - it's a shop ran by a bunch of chavs, with rows upon rows of spray cans adorning shelf after shelf after shelf. There also a selecdtion of books, pens, stencils, anti removal paint, masks, clothes, you name it, this shop has it. I reported it to the police, on the preamble it encourages criminal activity, and they told me they are powerless to do anything 'until a crime is committed'. What utter stupidity!
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Post by agoodcuppa on Jun 11, 2006 22:36:15 GMT
Just been to check and the item has ended. ;D I wonder who by? The listing ended because it had run it's time on display. When I saw it this morning, it was "live" it still had several days to run. If you note the "end" time and date, it's Sunday 11th, the day it was reported. If an item is withdrawn from sale early, that becomes the end time. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 11, 2006 22:38:43 GMT
Near to where I am staying here in Kent, there's a shop selling 'art materials' it isnt until you enter the shop and find its not your regular Printworks - it's a shop ran by a bunch of chavs, with rows upon rows of spray cans adorning shelf after shelf after shelf. There also a selecdtion of books, pens, stencils, anti removal paint, masks, clothes, you name it, this shop has it. I reported it to the police, on the preamble it encourages criminal activity, and they told me they are powerless to do anything 'until a crime is committed'. What utter stupidity! Oh, a bit like the market stall in Minehead market which is actively selling air pistols, air rifles and knives up to 12" long - even if the latter are replicas it's a disgrace. |
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Post by cdr113 on Jun 12, 2006 16:45:37 GMT
since when did selling pictures of graffiti become a criminal act?! if I liked taking photos of rubbish blowing around, would you report me for littering?  |
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Post by agoodcuppa on Jun 12, 2006 16:53:09 GMT
Selling the pictures isn't an offence. Aiding and abetting a criminal act is. Dropping litter doesn't usually cause damage to other's property. If you had dropped the litter in order to take your photos, and not removed it afterwards, you would indeed be guilty of an offence.  |
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Post by Chris W on Jun 12, 2006 17:03:19 GMT
since when did selling pictures of graffiti become a criminal act?! if I liked taking photos of rubbish blowing around, would you report me for littering? cdr113 Simply taking photographs and selling them on in itself is not a crime, but the issue here is what the images are of. Storing or the making of certain types of images is a criminal offense, an example being indecent images of children. I do not in any way believe that the taking of a photo of a train that happens to have some graffiti on it is illegal but we need to get some proportion here. The seller on e-bay was selling two items: 1) 25 copies of photos which were advertised as being (and I quote) "Reprinted from my personal collection" 2) Selling, when I last saw, 99 CD-ROM's containing, again I quote "Over Ten Thousand Images" Need I say more! Let us also ask why would anyone be interested in this criminal activity in the first place. I suspect (& this is in my opinion), that some characters are motivated to graffiti trains by selling the pictures on - there is obviously a market, otherwise why would the items above be for sale in the first place. Indeed selling such items seem to me to promote this criminal activity in that others may try to replicate by vandelising and trying to sell on images of the damage that they then have caused. I honestly do have respect for artistic work as long as its created in the right place - trains or other railway equipment is in no way the right place for such art. Firstly due to the damage and cost of repair, but secondly from the point of view of the safety of those ignorant and naive individuals who are sad enough to find vandalism an enjoyable pastime. Regards Christopher |
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Post by Chris M on Jun 12, 2006 17:26:24 GMT
Near to where I am staying here in Kent, there's a shop selling 'art materials' it isnt until you enter the shop and find its not your regular Printworks - it's a shop ran by a bunch of chavs, with rows upon rows of spray cans adorning shelf after shelf after shelf. There also a selecdtion of books, pens, stencils, anti removal paint, masks, clothes, you name it, this shop has it. I reported it to the police, on the preamble it encourages criminal activity, and they told me they are powerless to do anything 'until a crime is committed'. What utter stupidity! I think that one of the first laws I would pass, given the chance, would be one that made it a criminal offence to promote criminal activite, enourage others to comit a crime or knowingly give someone the means to comit a crime (by which I mean that if you sold me a knife, giving me the means to stab someone, it wouldn't be a crime unless you knew that I was planning to use it to comit a crime). The maximum penalty would be the same as the criminal offence in question (e.g. if you are encouraging people to trespass on the railway then the maximum penalty would be the same as the maximum penalty for trespassing on the railway), although there would be discretion so that things didn't get out of proportion. This would cover everything from minor crimes like littering to big things like terrorism. since when did selling pictures of graffiti become a criminal act?! If he is selling these images without the permission of those who created them, he might be breaching their copyright. It is legal to destroy the image by cleaining it off as there was no permission to put it there in the first place - but if it is artistic (and regardless of it being in the wrong place, some graffiti is artistic) it probably has copyright on it. I doubt the people doing it would care, but AIUI "I didn't think they would care" is not a valid defense. |
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Post by Chris W on Jun 13, 2006 11:29:17 GMT
Lady & Gents I have just received an update from E-Bay: " Thank you for taking the time to write to eBay.
I understand your concerns regarding this matter. I have forwarded the
items and seller you have reported to our moderators and the appropriate
action will be taken.
eBay does not prohibit the sale of graffiti photographs. Unless we have
clear evidence that gives us reasons to believe that the seller is
encouraging illegal activity, we cannot remove the auction. I hope you
can understand our position in this matter.
I hope I have addressed all of your concerns as your satisfaction is
very important to us. Please let me know if you have any more questions.
My office hours are 2:00pm to 10:30pm, Sunday to Thursday.
Sincerely yours,
Claire Kensington
eBay Community Watch Team" The e-mail was entitled " RE: IV%ORC115 PI: Why Did You End The Item I Was Selling? (KMM34705311V47135L0KM)" which perhaps indicates that the seller complained that the sale was ended by e-bay (perhaps someone might be able to confirm this?? I replied: " Thank you very much for coming back to me regarding this matter
I'd be interested in details of any action taken against the user by e-bay or whether a warning will be the only action. Can you also confirm whether the sale was completed or not.
I hope you can understand the concerns I have as regards sale of such images might encourage others to damage railway equipment and the sell on the images - there is obviously a market for such images, otherwise why would they be available for sale in the first place.
I look forward to your reply
" Further updates in due course |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 13, 2006 11:53:34 GMT
"we cannot remove the auction" ??
What aload of bullocks weasel words!!
Of COURSE they can: it's their site and they can do what the hell they like, as long as their policy is made clear.
Sounds like they think it's trivial and can't be bothered.......
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Post by CSLR on Jun 13, 2006 12:09:42 GMT
I can confirm that the sale of this item has 'ended'. It looks like it has been stopped. I suggest that the reply that you got was just legal wording thus:-
"the appropriate action will be taken", means that they will act but they are not going to discuss this with you for fear that anything they put in writing could be circulated and used as an example in future cases or (this is the awkward one) it could used against them or you by the person whose sale has been stopped.
"eBay does not prohibit the sale of graffiti photographs." This just means that it is not on their list of items that are automatically prohibited.
"Unless we have clear evidence that gives us reasons to believe that the seller is encouraging illegal activity, we cannot remove the auction." Not really true; their terms and conditions make it clear that they are in charge and that they can do what they want. However, they probably do not like being told what to do by you. As a face-saving measure they have not removed it, but it looks like they have stopped the sale - at least for the moment.
I doubt if you will get much of a response to your other enquiries with them except something like, "we cannot discuss individual cases or the action that we take".
If I was in their situation, I would probably write to the seller and say that the sale has been stopped pending investigation of complaints. I would then monitor the situation to see if LU or BTP followed up on the letters that you told them you had sent. They might also flag this for a possible internal review of the policy and wording regarding the sale of these items just to protect their backs.
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Post by Chris W on Jun 13, 2006 18:05:18 GMT
I doubt if you will get much of a response to your other inquiries with them except something like, "we cannot discuss individual cases or the action that we take You were spot on - read below: " Unfortunately, due to eBay's privacy policy, we cannot disclose any
information regarding another member's account or any actions taken on their accounts. Thank you for your patience and understanding in this matter.
Sincerely yours,
Claire Kensington
eBay Community Watch Team" I expect that is that then..... "keep 'em peeled" as the presenter of Police 5 used to say |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2006 18:06:59 GMT
I expect that is that then..... "keep 'em peeled" as the presenter of Police 5 used to say Ha ha! Shaw Taylor, who, got done for travelling on the tube without a ticket!!! |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 13, 2006 18:08:08 GMT
Pity Ms Kensington's first name is not Sarah, or Wendy. Would look far better in a complaint about LU........ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by CSLR on Jun 13, 2006 18:26:51 GMT
I notice that the 10,000 images on CD are still on ebay. Did anyone complain about those?
It is worth noting that the seller is throwing in a 'bonus' video of tube and trackside damage. Also, some of the images appear to have been taken from places where there is no public access and must therefore have involved trespass.
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Post by Chris W on Jun 13, 2006 18:52:06 GMT
Okay - I have now sent another e-mail, this time to both: "ukrswebhelp@ebay.com" & also "law-enforcement@ebay.com" " The following item is now for sale by the same seller "iamdek" item number: 7417895622 under the title:
"Graffiti Photo/Photos CD - Over Ten Thousand Images
A Digital Jungle, N-igma, Location 12 Photo Archive"
There are now just 38 items for sale - there were 99 on Sunday when I initially reported this.
I have to question here the motives of this individual. Having reported these sales once to the British Transport Police and London Underground do I have to again and again.
eBay are in TOTAL control of all items which are sold and therefore responsible in ensuring that items sold are in tune/correspond with law enforcement agencies. Let us also ask why would anyone be interested in this criminal activity in the first place and the repercussions of any individual or organisation promoting and glamourising it, principally because of the health & safety implications of those trespassing on the railway in order to create such images. Just look at the fatality that occurred last week on the London Underground at Ealing Broadway as evidence of the dangers in trespassing.
True as far as we know this individual is just selling the images, but he is certainly relentless in making a profit from activities that are illegal and damaging to society and to the image of the London Underground.
I hope eBay are not ignorant enough of the facts to ignore these common sense principles and I hope that the right action is taken to prevent sales of such items.
I look forward to eBay's positive actions on this matterHere's not holding my breath  I have also just reported it the BTP... AGAIN! - my 2nd report has been linked to the one I made on Sunday. I also tried to contact LU customer services, but guess what.... no answer, just instead held on the line until I was put through to the 'Customer Satisfaction Survey'.... nope don't think so Can any staff that are on duty tomorrow please chase this up with LU as I really think a phone call/letter from the right person/department to eBay may at least result in some decent action being taken as I'm clearly hitting my head against a brick wall  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2006 19:04:13 GMT
don't e-bay get a commission of the sales/end bid???
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Post by Chris W on Jun 14, 2006 11:48:01 GMT
Okay - two replies from eBay - the first from ""eBay United Kingdom Customer Support" <ukrswebhelp@ebay.com>" " Thank you for writing to eBay's Customer Support. I appreciate the opportunity to assist you further.
I can understand your frustration with this situation. Each auction is reviewed based on the information contained within the listing itself. There are times when you may know what the seller is listing however since we do not possess or examine the items listed for sale we are restricted to judging the auctions based solely on the information contained within the auction text and the pictures provided. As such we do not remove items unless they are plainly prohibited by our policies based on information from the auction. Please be assured that each auction you report is reviewed and a decision is then made based on the evidence in the auction whether or not the item is in plain violation of our policies.
I appreciate your patience and understanding in this matter.
Regards,
Spalding Watters
eBay Community Watch Team" The other from ""eBay EU Investigations" <euinvestigations@ebay.com>": " Thank you for contacting the eBay/PayPal Fraud Investigation Team. This email is an automated response.
If you are a law enforcement agent and have identified yourself as one in your email, we will contact you shortly.
If you are not a law enforcement agent, we will not respond to your inquiry and will not forward your email to our customer support teams. If you are not a law enforcement agent, you should direct your inquiry to our excellent customer support teams:
For eBay Customer Support, please go to:
pages.ebay.co.uk/help/new/questions/contact-support.html
For PayPal Customer Support, please go to:
www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_contact-general
This email is dedicated solely to law enforcement so we may provide the quickest assistance possible relating to eBay/PayPal activity and users.
If you are not law enforcement but are trying to report a criminal
incident, please contact law enforcement directly. Our team will then be happy to provide whatever assistance is necessary directly to law enforcement.
If you are a law enforcement agent and are contacting eBay or PayPal in order to request records to support an ongoing investigation, please fax your formal request to us at: +44 020 7681 2389. We cannot provide records in response to an email request. We care deeply about the privacy of the eBay and PayPal community and will protect the privacy of our members even while working closely with law Enforcement to prevent criminal activity. If you are unsure about our privacy practices, please visit Privacy Central for more information.
Regards,
eBay/PayPal Fraud Investigation " I'm clearly wasting me time with eBay, as in my opinion they're clearly more interested in profiteering from those selling images of crime (again in my opinion seemingly encouraging others to commit vandalism putting their and others lives in danger) I will monitor the seller and report solely to BTP & LU Customer Services in future... maybe a letter/e-mail to BBC Watchdog or even RAIL might not be amiss (anyone agree) Regards Christopher |
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Post by c5 on Jun 14, 2006 12:12:18 GMT
Have the BTP or CSC, got back to you yet?
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Post by CSLR on Jun 14, 2006 12:32:45 GMT
It sounds like you are exploring every avenue Chris and it might be worth looking at some new angles - do not forget newspapers and local radio if you intend to pursue this. BBC can be very good if they get their teeth into something, but Watchdog might not be the right programme in this case as they are 'consumer protection'. Their brief appears to be angled more towards people who have defective goods/services.
Looking at your reply, there were a couple of sentences that stood out. "We care deeply about the privacy of the eBay and PayPal community and will protect the privacy of our members even while working closely with law Enforcement to prevent criminal activity. If you are unsure about our privacy practices, please visit Privacy Central for more information." This sounds like they are quoting the bit where they demand law enforcement organisations to get court orders before releasing information to them. If this is the case, you probably are choosing the right course of action by broadening out. A look at the news will show you how one person can often get companies to act by drumming-up public support for their campaign.
The angle here is teenagers have been killed (even recently) by trespassing. Although the circumstances of these deaths may vary, material like this glamorises an activity that requires trespass.
Secondary issues (as far as your campaign is concerned) include the fact that graffiti is illegal in its own right and that affected trains have to be withdrawn from service and cleaned at an expense to the travelling public.
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Post by Chris M on Jun 14, 2006 12:38:00 GMT
I will monitor the seller and report solely to BTP & LU Customer Services in future... maybe a letter/e-mail to BBC Watchdog or even RAIL might not be amiss (anyone agree) I am not certain that you should stop contacting customer services, particuarly if there is anything different in future listings. I do think that contacting the media is a good idea, perhaps they can get some impetus into the law enforcement. |
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