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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 16:15:46 GMT
petitions.pm.gov.uk/yes2roadpricing/We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Introduce road pricing nationwide and channel the money into improving public transport and conditions for walking and cycling.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 19:43:48 GMT
Do you drive Chris, or with someone with a car?
Imagine this:
Drive to Scotland 400 miles: could amount up to over 400 quid for the trip!
So for this I say NO to road pricing!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 20:00:34 GMT
If you price the roads, we will ALL pay more even if we don't drive; Think of delivery drivers, Supermarkets, Postal Services, Emergency Services...
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Post by Chris M on Feb 21, 2007 20:31:55 GMT
Road pricing will likely be based on paying more to drive on congested roads. This will drive traffic onto back roads which are far less suitable for large volumes of traffic. This will just move the congestion elsewhere and lead to an increase in polution, noise and accidents on minor roads while doing little to relieve the congestion of major roads.
To get people onto public transport you have to put the investment in first - people will not leave their cars until the alternative public transport option (a) exists (b) is cheaper than driving (c) is at least as reliable as driving (d) runs at the times they want to travel and (e) runs frequently.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 20:58:29 GMT
Do you drive Chris, or with someone with a car? Imagine this: Drive to Scotland 400 miles: could amount up to over 400 quid for the trip! So for this I say NO to road pricing! I do drive and I own a car. If I went to Scotland I would fly or go by train. Then when I was there I could hire a car. I agree with no road pricing when there is no alternative public transport.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 21:00:49 GMT
Road pricing will likely be based on paying more to drive on congested roads. This will drive traffic onto back roads which are far less suitable for large volumes of traffic. This will just move the congestion elsewhere and lead to an increase in polution, noise and accidents on minor roads while doing little to relieve the congestion of major roads. To get people onto public transport you have to put the investment in first - people will not leave their cars until the alternative public transport option (a) exists (b) is cheaper than driving (c) is at least as reliable as driving (d) runs at the times they want to travel and (e) runs frequently. Most back roads and cut throughs around here are blocked off. Cars have to go on the main roads as they cannot go elsewhere. With reference to investment, where is the investment money going to come from? Why not get it from road pricing
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 21:03:57 GMT
Okay, look at it this way, in the late 1950's and sixties, Motorways were seen as the answer to take traffic away from ever congested roads, Take the A25 and M25 for example. The a25 winds its way through Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Westerham and onwards. The M25 was built, partly across the old track bed to Westerham. So, take into consideration that the A25 is now relatively quiet, and will incur less road toll charges. The M25, as some of may know, is the biggest log jammed road anywhere. This will incur a hefty toll charge. So what are people going to do? Exactly, go back onto the old A-road, exactly a reverse of what was hoped and indeed planned for. This will just be a vicious circle, and is just another tax on the already over burdened motorist.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 21:26:35 GMT
That is just ridiculous the extents their going to, so people will stop driving and use public transport
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 21:33:01 GMT
But jts what do you do when you live in the middle of the Cambridgeshire Fens' your local train station has TWO trains a day each way Monday to Saturday, and the nearest bus stop is a three mile walk away along a contry lane to the main road. It's a 12 mile bus ride. Just what do you do? Oh yeah, I'm going to use the train just to go into town to get some bread and milk, because the local village store and post office closed down! Yeah, I'll just sit at the station from 08.00 until 22.30 on a hot summers day, waiting for my next train.
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Post by tubeprune on Feb 21, 2007 21:50:04 GMT
Road pricing is inevitable. We live in a congested, popular and over populated country. Our whole lifestyle is geared towards American living, where they have the space for out of town shopping and roads to everywhere. We don't.
We can't let everyone who wants to drive into the big cities do it for work every day. The traffic jams we get from it show that we can't. Our public transport takes up the slack.
Our prosperity gives lots of people the chance to buy a car and use it but we don't have the infrastructure for everyone to do that. So, we are going to have to find a way of reducing the demand. We already pay high motoring costs. Everybody complains about them but they still pay. This means that the price is not high enough to stop any of them. That's means we have congestion.
If we want to hold the level of congestion to what it is now, we have to prevent more cars taking to the road. The only way to do this is to price them off (or make it illegal). It doesn't matter how it's done but it has to be done and it will be.
Higher motoring costs are inevitable.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 21:58:40 GMT
Yet we get trains that are jam-packed already. ;D Time for the infamous Japanese cattlecars...
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Post by Chris M on Feb 21, 2007 22:06:20 GMT
If we want to hold the level of congestion to what it is now, we have to prevent more cars taking to the road. The only way to do this is to price them off (or make it illegal). It doesn't matter how it's done but it has to be done and it will be. Higher motoring costs are inevitable. Thats all well and good where you have an alternative. But for many people they have no option but to pay whatever it costs to drive. For me to get to work I have to drive there, so I have to pay whatever the fuel costs - whether it is £85.9p/l I paid yesterday or £3/l I have no choice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 22:09:03 GMT
But why do you have to drive, Chris M? I think I can say I can predict your answer...
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Post by compsci on Feb 21, 2007 22:11:52 GMT
I'm reminded of a Greenpeace spokesperson being quoted in one of London's exceedingly accurate free newspapers that the staff of the financial institution I work for should all be given bikes to get to work rather than huge bonuses so we can stop going to work in our huge polluting cars.
Of course pretty much all of the staff take the train/tube/bus as we get interest free season ticket loans, there is nowhere to park, business can't sensibly be done while driving and driving is just plain stressful Even if I was able to I wouldn't fancy cycling all the way from Cambridge to St Paul's.
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Post by antharro on Feb 21, 2007 22:14:53 GMT
Not a chance. I signed the other petition, against road pricing.
Driving is a significant part of my daily life. I'm run an in-home/in-office on-site IT callout service to fix/upgrade people's PCs. Can you possibly imagine if I had to switch to public transport? I wouldn't get as much done in a day, and I'd wind up having conversations that went like this:
"Yes Mr. X, but I can't be there for another hour as I won't be finished with this callout in time to get the next bus..."
Road pricing = my costs increase, which get passed on to my clients. Public transport = I get less done in a day because I'm relying on a system that just isn't suitable for this kind of work.
If I worked in my town centre, then it'd be a 15 minute cycle ride which is all down hill on the way in. Or if I worked in one of the local town centres, then there are buses that go there - public transport may be a possibility when commuting. But, I work all over my area and on a busy day I'll drive well over a hundred miles per day. I also work some very unsociable hours - up to midnight sometimes. I can see a great number of clients on a daily basis simply because I can get myself from one to the other without needing to rely on public transport. Also, buses around here don't run to a lot of areas at that time of night.
If road pricing comes in, then it comes in. But I'm certainly not going to encourage it for these reasons, and all the other absolutely valid reasons that other users have stated above.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 22:21:37 GMT
And then theres lugging your equipment everywhere Antharro.
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Post by antharro on Feb 21, 2007 22:24:27 GMT
Good point. There's not a huge amount of it, but it'd be totally unpractical to lug it all around. Another good thing about the car is when I get to my client's location I only need to take whatever parts I need, instead of lugging the whole lot in!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 22:32:24 GMT
Exactly, where as if you used Public Transport, you'd need everything, just in case someone, somewhere. You can't exactly just leave in the middle of a call-out while you go about on buses, back home or to the office to get the bits you need.
I should explain that I do not currently drive a car, but have passed my test and hold a full licence. I tend to cycle these days, despite being knocked off my bike, I do agree that road pricing is not the way forward.
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Post by prjb on Feb 21, 2007 22:49:55 GMT
I wish that everyone would stop driving and switch to public transport for one day only. The entire system would grind to a halt in the first few minutes of rush hour.
I wonder where that £35 billion quid from road tax etc went last year? I suspect it wasn't on the roads!
With regards to road pricing, whilst I am against it, I would like to see a reasonable debate take place. One where we are shown the Pro's and Con's without the spin and are told how exactly it would effect us. Would we end up paying more? Would it significantly reduce congestion in the long term? How would it effect businesses (especially small ones)? Lets face it, it isn't about making the planet a greener place, and it isn't about reducing congestion, so lets cut the c**p and get down to exactly how it will change our daily routine and our pocket.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 22:55:26 GMT
Interesting points raised there, prjb. Of course, the government are going to mask the plan-to-solve-all-ills with some sort of whitewash, saying the money raised will go to public service improvements. HUh, if you belive the government after all thats happened, then you're a fool to yourself. I do not believe one word the government say... my 16 page letter to them explains this. They deny ever trying to annoy the UK citizens. Huh!
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Post by antharro on Feb 21, 2007 23:12:22 GMT
I wish that everyone would stop driving and switch to public transport for one day only. The entire system would grind to a halt in the first few minutes of rush hour. That could be amusing. I suspect a good amount of it went to the EU, some £39mil per day was the last figure I heard. I absolutely agree that a good debate needs to happen. As it is, I think if road pricing is introduced, then a majority of people will end up paying more. The old granny who drives a couple of miles once a week to the shops will likely wind up paying less. As for small businesses, well, you've seen my take on it above. I think you're absolutely right about it not being about green issues. If the government were truely interested in green, then they should be promoting electric cars, and putting some serious cash into public transport. And I mean enough that I could walk out of my door and within 10 minutes be on an alternative-fuel bus to the town center, then return at whatever ungodly hour I happen to choose to come back at. While I accept that ultimately, people will need to change their habits, pricing them off the road is not going to achieve that. Ultimately, instead of walking out of the door and straight to the car, people will need to walk to the nearest main road and get a REGULAR bus instead. There will need to be a little less rush in their day to day life and a little more planning so what they do coincides with the public transport services. And that's just the tip of that particular iceberg. There is the need for something to be done, but I don't think that road pricing RIGHT ACROSS the country is the correct answer.
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Post by Chris M on Feb 21, 2007 23:13:05 GMT
But why do you have to drive, Chris M? I think I can say I can predict your answer... Most of the time I work in the office in Taunton. To get there from home by public transport would require one of the following options: 1. Bus to Weston-super-Mare, Train to Taunton, 10-15 minute walk or 5 minutes on bus 2. Bus to Weston-super-Mare, Train to Bristol, Train to Taunton, Bus or walk as above 3. Bus to Wells, Bus to Somerton, Bus to Taunton
Not one of these options takes less than 2 3/4 hours, and no combination gets me to work early enough for me to do a full days work before I need to leave to get the last services home. Petrol costs me about £30/week, I've not investigated season tickets but without them the cheapest public transport is about £40-45/week. All of the above journeys assume that each leg is on time and not canceled and that connections are made.
About three times a month on average I have to travel to the Bristol office on no notice. This can be any time of the day. By car my journey from home to the Bristol office is 3 miles longer than to the Taunton office and takes about the same time (45-55 minutes, depending on traffic).
Public transport to the Bristol office takes between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 hours, assuming everything runs to time and connections are made: 1. Bus to Weston-super-Mare, train to Bristol Temple Meads [SE of city centre], Bus to the office in Westbury-on-Trym (north-west Bristol), this takes about an hour. 2. Bus to Weston-super-Mare, train to Bristol Parkway, Bus to Cribbs Causeway, Bus to office 3. Bus to Winscombe, Bus to Bristol city centre, Bus to office
The most common journey I need to make though is from the Taunton office to the Bristol office. To drive this takes around an hour door to door. Public transport would involve either a bus or a walk accross Taunton, a train to Bristol (irregular times with intervals ranging from about 20 minutes to over 2 hours; trains are frequently late and cancellations are not rare). Some trains terminate at Bristol Temple Meads (Bus across town as above), others continue to Bristol Parkway (two busses as in option 2). There is no bus service that I know of that connects the office and/or Cribbs Causeway to Filton Abbey Wood station. Total journey time is a minimum of two hours.
As the reason for the journey relates to a health and safety-critical computer system, it is important that I get there as quickly as I can.
At other times I need to travel to farms, or even just fields, that are in the middle of nowhere several miles from the nearest bus stop, that might be served by one bus a day in each direction on one day a week only.
For these reasons I have no choice but to drive a car to work.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 23:19:08 GMT
Exactly my prediction, cr@p and inconvenient public transport...
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Post by Phil on Feb 21, 2007 23:21:04 GMT
Well, I'm for road pricing in principle. For my current road usage, I'd save a shedload based on current figures and if the abolition of road tax is true, not a load of porkies.
HOWEVER, if I lived in exactly the same place but had to commute, say 10 miles, it would have to be by car since the bus service is so useless (and the railway is 1 1/2 miles away) and I would be worse off.
We keep being told that we rural dwellers will all be better off, but I'm sure those in the City have no idea just how far many of these folks drive. My gut feeling is that about 80-85% will be worse off, not the 50% the gov't claims. But time will tell.
Ultimately though we will have to reconsider everything. For example Compsci and his ilk (the long-distance commuters) are definite contributors to global warming, even travelling by train. I know part of this is due to house prices etc., and we have all got lazy*, and jobs are often in the wrong areas, but if we are serious about doing SOMETHING then.............
* a generation or so ago, most of us would have walked a distance of 1 mile or so to the local shop: now most of us instinctively jump in the car - and then find a thousand excuses (time, security etc.etc.) why we have no alternative...
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Post by Chris M on Feb 21, 2007 23:37:41 GMT
I would relish the opportunity, to walk 1 1/2 miles to the nearest railway station. As the crow flies my nearest railway station is just under 8 miles away.
Of course if Beeching hadn't had his way, then my closest station would be about 1/3rd of a mile away...
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Post by cetacean on Feb 21, 2007 23:48:08 GMT
For these reasons I have no choice but to drive a car to work. It sounds to me like the real problem is that you live too far from work. The road pricing scheme isn't just meant to get people onto public transport, it's to discourage people from driving more than they need to. Would it encourage you to move nearer Taunton and only use the car to access rural areas? (of course the whole scheme is totally impractical, but I can see why they like the idea)
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Post by Chris M on Feb 21, 2007 23:55:35 GMT
It would not encourage me to move closer to Taunton, for starters why should I have to move? I like living where I am - I live in a nice house in a nice village. I do not like my job and am not a big fan of Taunton, so I don't see my future there and so do not want to buy a house - not that I could afford to with house prices as they are. I would be extremely lucky to find somewhere to rent for ~£30/week.
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 21, 2007 23:59:12 GMT
It should heavily depend upon the area - there is no real reason why someone working in London needs a car. There's frequent, cheap, reliable public transport there.
(I know a lot of Londoners complain about this, however they really need to live somewhere with expensive, infrequent and unreliable transport to appreciate how lucky they are).
I also reject the criticism from people that "trains and buses are old and dirty". If you mean the tube, they're better than they ever were by all accords. And all buses in London are brand new, not 30 years old!
But I mean even for me - if I worked in central Doncaster, or even central Sheffield, there would be no reason to use a car. I've got a 10 minute bus service 30 seconds walk away, and there's a train every half hour to Sheffield if needs be. And it's not expensive if you buy season tickets.
On the other hand, take a village near here - Wroot. There are three buses a day, none of which reach town before 10.30 or leave after 14.30, they cost £2.50 single each, and the bus comes from 30 miles away before starting work the morning, from a company who is known to not notice that staff don't turn up. For that reason, you'd need a car if you lived there.
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Post by cetacean on Feb 22, 2007 1:45:10 GMT
It would not encourage me to move closer to Taunton, for starters why should I have to move? Well you don't have to. But you are using the roads a lot more than the people who do move, so there's some logic in expecting you to pay more towards them. That said, the existing petrol tax would seem to have that covered.
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 22, 2007 2:01:12 GMT
That said, the existing petrol tax would seem to have that covered. Indeed, the tax on fuel does well it seems on charging people for how much they drive, charging people on the efficiency of their cars as well, all in one fell swoop. One might ponder whether the millions of pounds being spent on 'alternative' systems will pay off compared to this simple, cheap and effective method of fairly calculating revenue due?
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