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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 17:27:57 GMT
I know this is in another thread, but I finally saw for meself that ATO performs abismally in the wet today.
Was standing at East Acton westbound platform, drizzling like anything, saw train come in, and it undershot the stop mark by about 10 to 15 metres!! Saw the driver stand up, change the reverser, and drive it to the stop mark properly......
Was interesting though for me...... lol .......
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 17:36:19 GMT
try it from the T/Op viewpoint - feeling is worse when you go past the stopping mark! Happened to me once in drizzle was on Epping - Theydon Bois. Completely missed the stopping mark, went 5 cars past the station!!! I bashed the emergency stop button half way down the platform [f**k lot of good that did]. Got through on the radio told the guv'nor I'd overshot Theydon Bois west in Auto. Right oh driver, carry on to next station, best use Manual. I make an announcement, apologising for the non-stopping of theydon Bois. Gets to Debden and have a quick run down the train - not one soul on the train! Well worth making the announcement wasnt it??? I was so pleased to reach the dry confines of the tunnels. But yes, ATO is a nightmare in wet weather....
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 17:37:20 GMT
Was standing at East Acton westbound platform, drizzling like anything, saw train come in, and it undershot the stop mark by about 10 to 15 metres!! Saw the driver stand up, change the reverser, and drive it to the stop mark properly...... The reason it does that, is because ATO cannot determine weather conditions, therefore it will apply the brakes as it normally does, and if it then detects that wheels have locked up, it will apply the emergency brakes, in most cases resulting in the train stopping short. That is almost then a fail safe feature as the train doesnt have to set back or anythign silly like that! When it is wet, it is much easier to use Coded Manual because you can drive the train appropriatly to the conditions, ie not fly around the place as if there is no tomorrow! |
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Post by tom2506 on May 6, 2006 18:02:26 GMT
This whole thing about ATO and weather has been discussed here - SPADding at torrential LaytonstoneWhen I was down in glasgow this time in the Easter holidays, they use a distance to go system (well there's no evidence its a coded! - I really must find that out!) and the weather was wet so some water was seeping into the tunnels causing the rails to be a little slippery. This resulted in some wheel slip somewhere down the tunnel and at Hillhead station you could hardly exit through the final cars final set of doors as the trains were stopping slightly short, but not out of the stopping mark obviously as trains were still managing to stop and open up as normal. This caused dwell time problems as well as being a pain to the customers. They really should move the stop mark further forward to stop this happening as there's a bit of room on the platform. In glasgow the drivers are not allowed to drive manual in the tunnels without line controller permission and an observer driver in the cab. |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 18:08:37 GMT
There's summat only heard on NR! |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 18:10:30 GMT
In glasgow the drivers are not allowed to drive manual in the tunnels without line controller permission and an observer driver in the cab. On the central line you have to ask permission to drive in Coded, but not if you have to pull up a bit more because ATO has stopped it short. You might want to let the controller know, on a courtesy basis, that it stopped short, but AFAIK its not obligatory Whats the reason glasgow need a second man? Is there no form of ATP when in coded? |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 18:14:56 GMT
It's a good idea to let the Controller know, because if he gets multiple calls about ATO stopping short at a particular station he can put the word out and have the ATO modded...[eventually]
but no, you do not have to let him know
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 18:27:04 GMT
Are some units worse than others at stopping short / over shooting?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 18:28:07 GMT
All units may look the same, but they have thier own characteristics!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 18:48:18 GMT
When I was on the first train (that I caught), heading from Epping this morning, I was intrigued to discover a huge bit of sticky tape (or so it looked!) covering what appeared to be a crack in the cab back wall ..... was creaking like anything, and no, it wasn't the interlocks for the doors etc.... I have forgotten the car number unfortunately!
Also, the area around and above the cab doors looks very tatty, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 18:51:27 GMT
91135
91217
91327
possibly more, but these are the ones I have noticed with bits of tape/patches of plastic over the cab back wall... was it drivers or trainers side?
EDIT: Spelling corrections...
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 18:53:54 GMT
Driver's side. Might've been 91135, something like that, but as I said, I can't remember. Anyway - what's wrong with these cabs anyway - why they getting these bits of tape / plastic smothered over 'em? Some kindly punter kicked the wall or something??  |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 6, 2006 18:56:18 GMT
It's a good idea to let the Controller know, because if he gets multiple calls about ATO stopping short at a particular station he can put the word out and have the ATO modded [Senior ATO Engineer's Hat On] Not very easily he can't - ATO performance cannot be changed except by modifying the data held in the PAC EPROMs and to go through the data change procedure normally takes a few months. [/Senior ATO Engineer] |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 19:00:50 GMT
Driver's side. Might've been 91135, something like that, but as I said, I can't remember. Anyway - what's wrong with these cabs anyway - why they getting these bits of tape / plastic smothered over 'em? Some kindly punter kicked the wall or something?? Could be that someons been a bit harsh on the graffiti removing tool.... |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 19:02:29 GMT
Looked like to me that it was covering some sort of split or crack down the wall, though? (Maybe it was the way the tape was angled or something, I can't be sure though)
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 19:08:12 GMT
falling to bits aren't they??? look at the rubber seals that go around the top of the cab back wall, above the J door - you'll find that some chavs have decided to pull the rubber strips out! You usually find a small stub of it around the window level, or just above the seats, right in the corner...
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 19:18:28 GMT
I didn't mean on the inside of the cars - I meant on the outside! Look tatty...... like they've had tape placed on 'em  (or at least, that sort of colour... if you see what I mean?) |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 19:21:16 GMT
huh yeah - the welds are fatigued [so I am told by the DDM at the depots]. It WAS white tape to begin with, after a few runs through the wash and through the tunnels the tape itself has either melted from the washing machine ingredients or been pulled off, leaving behind a sticky residue, which anything, particularly tunnel dust, likes to adhere to!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 19:25:01 GMT
So, we have, in effect, one of the newer stock on the tube..... falling to bits not 12 years after they were put into service?!?!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 19:31:03 GMT
Exactly... Look at the mods they've had to do - summat like 350+, and the W&C counterparts are laggind a way behind - hopefully with them away for refurb, they should be brought upto date with thier cousins
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Phil
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Post by Phil on May 6, 2006 20:31:22 GMT
Sad isn't it when you look at the 67ts after almost 40 years....
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2006 20:57:42 GMT
ATO + Water = Computer Says No......
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Post by tom2506 on May 6, 2006 21:14:48 GMT
So, we have, in effect, one of the newer stock on the tube..... falling to bits not 12 years after they were put into service?!?! Things seem to be getting more and more like that "Run 'em into the ground then they can get refurbished" attitude If they took care of them then mabey they could hold off the refurb for longer. |
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Post by tom2506 on May 6, 2006 21:23:51 GMT
They've got an award winning contactless train stop system and a 20 mph limiter but not much else safety wise, but it is a safe system
There are lights at the front of the trains to let station staff know whether the trains in manual or ATO (white for ATO red for manual), don't know why they bother, I suppose its to keep check on the drivers and maintain safety standards.
What happens when the ATO lamp goes bust? Well nothing, I've seen a train with neither lamp on so it seems that they don't really care about it!
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2006 17:18:24 GMT
It's a good idea to let the Controller know, because if he gets multiple calls about ATO stopping short at a particular station he can put the word out and have the ATO modded [Senior ATO Engineer's Hat On] Not very easily he can't - ATO performance cannot be changed except by modifying the data held in the PAC EPROMs and to go through the data change procedure normally takes a few months. [/Senior ATO Engineer] Is it possible for the braking rates to be adjusted depending on weather conditions in a similar way to there being different braking rates for tunnel and surface stations? Or is the Central Line's ATO not that sophisticated? (Although saying that, an adjustable system actually cause a crash in Washington, where a train that overran the PAC at a station defaulted back to fast running/high braking rate in poor conditions, and thus crashed into a parked train after overrunning the terminus by 140m!) |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 14, 2006 21:33:16 GMT
It's not sophisticated enough to switch in exra low braking early just dependent on the weather conditions. You'd need a rainfall sensor and two sets of PAC EPROMs which were selected by the rainfall detector. The PAC can only have one PROM fitted at a time.
However it was attempted on the Hainault loop in the original ATO trials in the 1960s. It wasn't particularly successful then either.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 14, 2006 21:34:57 GMT
Exactly... Look at the mods they've had to do - summat like 350+, and the W&C counterparts are laggind a way behind - hopefully with them away for refurb, they should be brought upto date with thier cousins Why should they? Do they need the ATO/ATP mods or extra weatherproofing for a line that is 100% underground with totally manual driving? |
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Post by mowat on May 15, 2006 10:49:17 GMT
Sad isn't it when you look at the 67ts after almost 40 years.... And the A stock after almost 50 years.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2006 13:06:40 GMT
Exactly... Look at the mods they've had to do - summat like 350+, and the W&C counterparts are laggind a way behind - hopefully with them away for refurb, they should be brought upto date with thier cousins Why should they? Do they need the ATO/ATP mods or extra weatherproofing for a line that is 100% underground with totally manual driving? Mentioned that because I hear/read of plans 'in the near future' to have ATO/ATP installed. This was on the TfL site not long ago. I also remember reading about the idea to send the W&C 92's to West Ruislip to expand the fleet, but the replacements were going to be the 72Mk1's! Don't think that would have gone down well with the regular users.... |
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Post by towerman on May 15, 2006 18:23:36 GMT
When the Cravens operated the Woodford shuttle there was a speed restriction over the M11 bridge,on the OR,when the rails were wet and they got the brake command to slow down they practically slid 3/4 of the way to Chigwell.
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(or at least, that sort of colour... if you see what I mean?)
