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Post by wanstead on Apr 28, 2023 9:17:50 GMT
Diamond Geezer is also reporting this news. As a regular gig-goer at the Kentish Town Forum, this closure is going to be a pain in the proverbial!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 28, 2023 9:22:51 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 28, 2023 11:01:46 GMT
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Post by melikepie on Jun 29, 2023 1:59:15 GMT
I'm not sure what tot title this as this thread is both a commentary to say Thanks Jago for the Kentish Town history video and also a general enquiry as it's through there I learned the station has been closed until due to general maintenance and cleanup and also replacing the escalators. He also says the NR station will remain open.
It's just occurred to me that although this is an interchange, there is no stepfree access. Is there any plans to rectify this? Probably not during the refurbishment works.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 29, 2023 6:03:18 GMT
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Post by Chris M on Jun 29, 2023 9:15:49 GMT
Yes, Kentish Town is an interchange but it still isn't near the top of the priority list for step-free access, in part because the two stations are managed by different organisations and neither is step free.
The LU station would, as noted in 2017, be complicated and expensive to make step-free. TfL's current priority for step-free access is filling in large gaps in the network, and Kentish Town is close to and has bus links to step-free stations at Finsbury Park, Caledonian Road and King's Cross St. Pancras. Additionally, Camden Town one stop to the south will gain step-free access when it is rebuilt. The Thameslink station would be relatively easy to make step free, but because step-free access is not available to the tube station this reduces the benefits of it. Especially as both adjacent stations have step-free access and offer interchange to London Underground, with St Pancras offering step-free interchange to the Northern line the only destinations that a Kentish Town would unlock would be the Charing Cross branch. However there are only two step-free stations on that branch, Tottenham Court Road and Waterloo, and they can be reached via existing interchanges at Farringdon (for Elizabeth line) and London Bridge (Jubilee line). I don't know NR's priority metric but I would not expect to see step-free access here any time soon.
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Post by Chris L on Jun 29, 2023 9:23:14 GMT
Installing lifts on the Thameslink station would offer better travel options parallel to the Northern line.
The Camden Town scheme has to be a higher priority.
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Post by alpinejohn on Jun 29, 2023 14:56:41 GMT
Yes, Kentish Town is an interchange but ... Additionally, Camden Town one stop to the south will gain step-free access when it is rebuilt. I fear given the current funding mess at LU/TFL there is no realistic prospect (this decade or next) of Camden Town being rebuilt. At one stage the underlying driver for the rebuild plan was to facilitate splitting the lines. TFL have since realised that would result in total bedlam at Camden Town - forcing everyone losing through services to swap platforms whilst fighting their way past a similar flow of hacked off passengers forced to change trains coming from the other branch. The impact of splitting the lines on dwell time and platform safety without fitting PEDs would doubtless give rise to some interesting timetable planning and safety discussions.
I suspect the only reason Camden Town may get a minimalist make-over is to improve peak entry/exit issues at the station especially those associated with huge crowds drawn to visit Camden Town Market.
Whilst they have already had "plans" drawn up, plans may change yet again, so that does not mean it will rebuilt any day soon. So yes if Camden Town is ever rebuilt with step free access, it would provide for some an alternative step free access option. However as Kentish Town is actually going to happen and about to close - it seems a crying shame TFL did not at least decide to make passive provision for step free access at Kentish Town now, so that once funds become available the cost and importantly passenger impact could be minimised.
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Post by Chris M on Jun 29, 2023 16:47:05 GMT
There isn't really any passive provision you can make at Kentish Town other than not building something where the lift would surface in the ticket hall, and given that everything they're doing at that level is to make more space then it seems likely this will be happening. Everything else involves major civil engineering which is completely out of scope for what is just replacing life-expired escalators with new ones to do the same job.
Rebuilding Camden Town is a pre-requisite for splitting the Northern line, and the design is such that there will not be any need for flows of hacked off passengers to fight each other, but it is not the primary purpose of the the rebuild. The primary purpose of the project is to give the station sufficient capacity and remove the conflicts between passenger flows that exist currently - a split would not create any new flows or new conflicts it would just make existing ones worse. So if the line is split after a rebuild there wont be any conflicts.
Of course with TfL's finances as they are currently, the rebuild of Camden is not guaranteed. However that also means that it would be incredibly poor judgement to spend a significant amount of money one stop away that would both offer significantly poorer value for money, worsen the business case for and reduce the amount of money available for rebuilding Camden.
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Post by jimbo on Jun 29, 2023 21:10:49 GMT
Note that “upgrades at Camden Town station could help separate the branches of the Northern Line, adding 25% more capacity through stations in central and south London” included in 67 possible schemes in the May 2023 London Infrastructure Framework for funding by the National Infrastructure Commission, as agreed with pan-London cross-party support. link
Splitting the line would not result in 50% of passengers swapping trains at Camden Town for their current destination branch, only those aiming for a station on that branch. If they are changing to another line enroute, they may just change their interchange station from one branch to the other. It would make operating the line reliably much easier, but if the sub-surface lines are aiming for 32tph with all those flat junctions, I don't see why the Northern Line could not achieve a boosted service over the grade separated junctions of Camden Town.
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Post by Chris L on Sept 21, 2023 13:02:07 GMT
Not sure who produced/executed this sticker. They obviously have no idea of viewing distances for the type used. It certainly be read from seats on the opposite side of the train. If trains are not stopping the circle, station name and interchange should either have removed (preferable) or covered with a heavy red X. If deleted a big note could be included. www.flickr.com/photos/187091281@N02/53203493944/in/dateposted-public/
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Post by t697 on Sept 21, 2023 16:20:43 GMT
It is the normal size font for such an additional message. I agree it is rather small and easy to miss. There are lots of quite big banners at station platforms though.
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Post by Chris L on Sept 21, 2023 18:18:31 GMT
It is the normal size font for such an additional message. I agree it is rather small and easy to miss. There are lots of quite big banners at station platforms though. It may the normal size now but it shouldn't be. It's way too small to be read by anyone with normal eyesight. The thin lines across the station name are almost invisible (as on the diagrams above Elizabeth line doors). Why is the Trains to Luton even there? The banners are fine but a lot of new/visiting passengers rely on these diagrams. I do wonder if the person doing the layout ever checks it at actual size.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 16, 2024 13:16:06 GMT
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Post by jeremy on Feb 16, 2024 14:21:49 GMT
A TfL spokesperson said: "The work to upgrade the escalators at Kentish Town Tube station is progressing well and we are on track to complete the installation of the new escalators this summer.” Progressing so well that there is now a couple of months extra closure on top of the already lengthy one!
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Post by Chris L on Feb 16, 2024 20:32:06 GMT
The additional work required is nothing to do with the escalators.
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Post by jeremy on Feb 17, 2024 17:09:00 GMT
And, of course, whilst planning the closure no-one could have predicted the need for painting or deep cleaning. Not much use the escalators being finished on time(if this is the case) if no-one can use them for an additional 2 months because of a lamentable shortcoming in the planning.
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Post by Chris L on Feb 17, 2024 17:55:01 GMT
Unplanned works on an old station are often needed. Hardly a shortcoming.
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Post by jeremy on Feb 18, 2024 16:24:05 GMT
Painting and cleaning are unplanned? Too many apologists for TfL here!
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Post by goldenarrow on Feb 18, 2024 16:51:52 GMT
There is no suggestion in Chris L ’s response that painting and/or cleaning are the sole reasons why the closure has had to be extended other than your own surmise.
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Post by Chris L on Feb 18, 2024 21:12:12 GMT
Painting and cleaning are unplanned? Too many apologists for TfL here! Perhaps there are people here that have worked on station maintenance for many years and know what they are talking about. BTW fitting new escalators in the restricted space within an Underground station is a bit more complicated than your local shopping centre.
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 18, 2024 23:50:53 GMT
A new floor? Maybe that could well be the unplanned work?
surely cleaning, painting, signage and even wall tiling can be done when the station is open?
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Post by Chris L on Feb 19, 2024 5:49:13 GMT
A new floor? Maybe that could well be the unplanned work? surely cleaning, painting, signage and even wall tiling can be done when the station is open? You should try changing a suspended platform sign between the last and first train. It ain't easy. Sign in with Station Supervisor. Get zip up scaffold, tools and sign to platform. Wait for Protection Master to confirm the traction current is off. Erect scaffold. Isolate and disconnect power supplies to sign (if necessary). Remove old sign and lower to floor. Lift new sign into position and secure. Reconnect power supplies (if necessary). Remove everything from platform. Confirm completion to Protection Master. Sign out with Station Supervisor.
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Post by Chris L on Feb 19, 2024 7:48:12 GMT
Painting and cleaning are unplanned? Too many apologists for TfL here! I wonder how they could have planned to remove the graffiti on the platform walls in the original schedule.
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Post by Chris M on Feb 19, 2024 11:19:25 GMT
You should try changing a suspended platform sign between the last and first train. It ain't easy. Sign in with Station Supervisor. Get zip up scaffold, tools and sign to platform. Wait for Protection Master to confirm the traction current is off. Erect scaffold. Isolate and disconnect power supplies to sign (if necessary). Remove old sign and lower to floor. Lift new sign into position and secure. Reconnect power supplies (if necessary). Remove everything from platform. Confirm completion to Protection Master. Sign out with Station Supervisor. In addition to that, I suspect that the signs are a lot heavier than a casual glance might suspect - as the faces of the sign are enamelled metal and the gray edging is also metal (I had assumed the latter was plastic or rubber). It's also plausible that the signs are larger than you think as well, as this is common for objects you only ever see from a distance.
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Post by jeremy on Feb 19, 2024 15:47:21 GMT
Perhaps there are people here that have worked on station maintenance for many years and know what they are talking about.. They might know what they are talking about(although one doubts that when there is moaning about the difficulty of changing a suspended platform sign) but not how to set and stick to a realistic schedule and perhaps they are apologists who cannot see how an extra two months causes difficulty for passengers and local businesses (or perhaps they don't care)
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Post by Chris M on Feb 20, 2024 4:44:28 GMT
Have you changed a suspended platform sign? Have you replaced an escalator? Have you carried out engineering works in a confined space, below ground, adjacent to a live railway line? Have you been in charge of planning the schedule for a complex project that had to be replanned part-way through because assets were found to be in significantly worse condition than was apparent from the checks that can be done without intrusive works? If the answer to any of those is no, then you have no basis on which to doubt the competence or truthfulness of those who have.
Nobody is disputing that the extended closure will be disruptive, however an extra ~2 months closure now will have been determined to be either unavoidable (i.e. it would not be safe to reopen the station before the work is complete) and/or less disruptive than doing the work at a different time (for example doing it later may require three or more months of closure). It is all-but guaranteed that doing the work now will be cheaper than doing it later (or, in the longer-term, not doing it at all), and given that the majority of TfL's income comes from fares, this means lower fares and better value for you.
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Post by 35b on Feb 20, 2024 7:25:49 GMT
Have you changed a suspended platform sign? Have you replaced an escalator? Have you carried out engineering works in a confined space, below ground, adjacent to a live railway line? Have you been in charge of planning the schedule for a complex project that had to be replanned part-way through because assets were found to be in significantly worse condition than was apparent from the checks that can be done without intrusive works? If the answer to any of those is no, then you have no basis on which to doubt the competence or truthfulness of those who have. Nobody is disputing that the extended closure will be disruptive, however an extra ~2 months closure now will have been determined to be either unavoidable (i.e. it would not be safe to reopen the station before the work is complete) and/or less disruptive than doing the work at a different time (for example doing it later may require three or more months of closure). It is all-but guaranteed that doing the work now will be cheaper than doing it later (or, in the longer-term, not doing it at all), and given that the majority of TfL's income comes from fares, this means lower fares and better value for you. True, but the comms avoid (deliberately?) comment on there being a delay in reopening. They instead reference things that are being done, leaving the impression that these are additional works while omitting the original planned dates. It’s that lack of candour that frustrates, and which degrades trust. Especially as delays to escalator works (which have been known in the past!) have been communicated transparently in previous station works.
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Post by brigham on Feb 20, 2024 8:29:45 GMT
Openness is probably best.
But 'doing some extra jobs' when you are already closed might be better than opening on time, then closing again for them later.
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Post by jeremy on Feb 20, 2024 17:04:14 GMT
Have you changed a suspended platform sign? Have you replaced an escalator? Have you carried out engineering works in a confined space, below ground, adjacent to a live railway line? Have you been in charge of planning the schedule for a complex project that had to be replanned part-way through because assets were found to be in significantly worse condition than was apparent from the checks that can be done without intrusive works? If the answer to any of those is no, then you have no basis on which to doubt the competence or truthfulness of those who have. Nobody is disputing that the extended closure will be disruptive, however an extra ~2 months closure now will have been determined to be either unavoidable (i.e. it would not be safe to reopen the station before the work is complete) and/or less disruptive than doing the work at a different time (for example doing it later may require three or more months of closure). It is all-but guaranteed that doing the work now will be cheaper than doing it later (or, in the longer-term, not doing it at all), and given that the majority of TfL's income comes from fares, this means lower fares and better value for you. No. I haven't done any of these but those who are planning and carrying out such tasks have a responsibility to try to get the timing right. Of course there might be something totally unexpected but the frequency with which such things occur makes one doubt the efficiency of the planning. As already commented the comms that surround such announcements is also poor, short on fact and long on defensiveness. The main problem seems to be that the customer comes last. One example is that works by those sorting out things on roads has become more efficient since utility companies started to pay penalties for overrunning.
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