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Post by jimbo on Mar 12, 2023 18:36:42 GMT
The Operating Manager's circular to senior staff concerning the Central Line eastern extensions included a proposed track layout for the whole of Stratford station area, including LNER lines. This showed connections with both LT tracks to/from the LNER at the eastern end of the station. I have always wondered, did these ever exist for construction trains? Or were they part of an earlier proposal to reach the Hainault loop via Ilford which was replaced by the new tunnelled connection via Gants Hill? The main construction depot in the area was on Drapers Field, now public open space by the Leyton tunnel mouth, close to the Temple Mills rail freight yards. Thus, connections at Stratford would appear to have been superfluous.
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Post by revupminster on Mar 12, 2023 20:24:47 GMT
All the stations on the eastern end of the central line except those under eastern avenue in tube tunnels were ex BR built by earlier companies who provided a steam service. Similar in the west.
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Post by stapler on Mar 12, 2023 21:18:26 GMT
What date was the circular?
I'd have thought connections would have been very cramped. Perhaps this was an early idea pretty soon discarded?
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Post by linus on Mar 12, 2023 22:36:00 GMT
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Mar 12, 2023 22:56:50 GMT
The connections were at Drapers Field, between Leyton and the Central line tunnel mouths. I don't think that I had ever heard of track connections actually at Stratford itself.
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Post by stapler on Mar 13, 2023 8:46:15 GMT
No - that connection wasn't at Stratford - it was at Leyton Station Junction, just south of Leyton, with signalbox alongside the WB Central controlling the junction |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Mar 13, 2023 11:49:26 GMT
The normal setting of the points was from the BR side,you could tell when an EB Central was coming by the points throwing.The first couple of 67TS trains got to Northumberland Pk Depot that way between battery locos.
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Post by rdm on Mar 13, 2023 15:40:31 GMT
Herewith (I hope!) two pictures I took at Leyton Junction many years ago, shewing the layout looking towards Stratford from the road overbridge and looking the other way, the EB Inner Home signal with disc-type distant signal. Hope these are of interest. The URL is www.flickr.com/photos/69499916@N08/7893852892/in/album-72157631320283980/EDIT - I see on looking at my post that the URL gives access to a small album of historical signalling; the two of Leyton may not be the first to appear, but if you use the side arrows they will eventually reveal themselves. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 13, 2023 19:26:49 GMT
stapler It is over 50 years since I last saw this document, but the LNER linking tracks have remained in my mind. These documents were around War time. It was probably pre-War since Central Line works were well advanced, but possibly post-VE day before opening to Stratford. The drawing was intended to show cross-platform interchange with the realigned LNER local tracks, but may have been an older drawing and the existence of working connections to the LNER may have been overlooked. The platforms may since have been extended towards the ramps, leaving less room for track connections. I would have thought that the Museum would have a copy, but I could not locate these on their online catalogue. Harsig signalling diagram here shows no signs of connections on 1946 opening, as expected. This also shows former connections to LNER at Leyton and Newbury Park, and connection to Drapers Field Depot at Leyton tunnel mouth.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 14, 2023 3:59:04 GMT
Since work commenced pre-War, I wondered when LNER services first served the Stratford interchange platforms. Wikipedia tells us: In February 1946 the LNER announced work (electrification) would recommence. On 5 October 1946 the new interchange platforms with the Central Line (see below) were opened. Central Line services started on 4 December 1946, extended from Liverpool Street station in new tunnels after being delayed due to the Second World War. The line was further extended to Leyton (stone) on 5 May 1947 ... link The bay platforms at the west end were constructed to provide a shuttle service to Fenchurch Street, using the bay appropriate to morning or afternoon peak demand. These were intended to replace the former through trains from stations transferred to the Central Line service, but such services were terminated from 5 November 1949. Was the track laid in these bays? The DLR service used one of the bays upon its opening. |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 14, 2023 10:54:21 GMT
The bay platforms at the west end were constructed to provide a shuttle service to Fenchurch Street, using the bay appropriate to morning or afternoon peak demand. These were intended to replace the former through trains from stations transferred to the Central Line service, but such services were terminated from 5 November 1949. I never realised that these shuttle services even began ... were they steam or electric powered? |
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Post by stapler on Mar 14, 2023 13:31:31 GMT
AFAIK, the shuttles never began, but I don't know if track was ever laid in 4 and 7.
Of course, anyone wanting Fenchurch could now change to the District cross-platform, and few would want the blitzed Stepney or Burdett Rd
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trainwizard
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Post by trainwizard on Mar 14, 2023 17:14:22 GMT
Platform 4 was used for Poplar DLR trains when the line opened until they built 4A and 4B to the south in 2007.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 14, 2023 18:51:23 GMT
The same Wikipedia page gave me the date of last Fenchurch Street trains (by calculation): The electric service between Liverpool Street to Shenfield was inaugurated on 26 September 1949 but services were run to steam timings with a number of steam trains still operating. The full electric service officially commenced on 7 November 1949 (although a full dummy run had taken place the previous day). Two days earlier services to Fenchurch Street via Bow Road were withdrawn.
Only obliquely relevant, I have a copy of Ilford to Shenfield by Dave Brennand, Middleton Press, which mentions in the page on Passenger Services, "such was the growth in the following decades (after 1874 opening of Liverpool Street terminus) that some trains to Ilford, Woodford (via Newbury Park) and Brentwood used Fenchurch Street instead." So withdrawal of Fenchurch Street trains from Central Line stations may have left a remnant from Ilford line without shuttle train operation. Maybe it was these that were withdrawn in 1949 days before an all-electric service to Liverpool Street?
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Post by stapler on Mar 15, 2023 9:48:13 GMT
Many passengers found Fenchurch more convenient, especially those in the shipping, marine insurance, and tea brokering trades. Fenchurch had been regarded as the terminus of default for Loughton, for example. You are probably right in that the residual service from Ilford may have been all that was left in October 1949.
The 1949 Central Line service was certainly regarded as inferior by commuters from the stations Loughton and south thereof that had always had a good steam service, to both Liverpool St and Fenchurch St, and lack of seats in the Standard stock was especially annoying.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 25, 2023 12:18:34 GMT
The normal setting of the points was from the BR side,you could tell when an EB Central was coming by the points throwing.The first couple of 67TS trains got to Northumberland Pk Depot that way between battery locos. How would that have even be possible. Why would they have gone across Leyton to deliver a train to Northumberland Park. Also was there ever a physical connection between the mainline BR at Northumberland Park to the Victoria line depot. |
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Post by stapler on Mar 25, 2023 12:37:15 GMT
The normal setting of the points was from the BR side,you could tell when an EB Central was coming by the points throwing.The first couple of 67TS trains got to Northumberland Pk Depot that way between battery locos. How would that have even be possible. Why would they have gone across Leyton to deliver a train to Northumberland Park. Also was there ever a physical connection between the mainline BR at Northumberland Park to the Victoria line depot. I had had that story too, but someone on here a few years back debunked it, by saying there was never a connection at Park, and that the 67TSs were routed from the west. |
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Post by stapler on Mar 25, 2023 12:40:34 GMT
Platform 4 was used for Poplar DLR trains when the line opened until they built 4A and 4B to the south in 2007. True, but before DLR in 1986, the bay was trackless! |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Mar 25, 2023 13:10:10 GMT
The normal setting of the points was from the BR side,you could tell when an EB Central was coming by the points throwing.The first couple of 67TS trains got to Northumberland Pk Depot that way between battery locos. How would that have even be possible. Why would they have gone across Leyton to deliver a train to Northumberland Park. Also was there ever a physical connection between the mainline BR at Northumberland Park to the Victoria line depot. Yes there was a BR connection to Northumberland Victoria Line depot, this was when the depot was a building site . |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Mar 25, 2023 17:45:09 GMT
How would that have even be possible. Why would they have gone across Leyton to deliver a train to Northumberland Park. Also was there ever a physical connection between the mainline BR at Northumberland Park to the Victoria line depot. Yes there was a BR connection to Northumberland Victoria Line depot, this was when the depot was a building site . The connection wasn’t removed till 67TS could be transferred via Piccadilly Line. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 25, 2023 19:43:04 GMT
So construction materials probably arrived at Northumberland Park by single track BR connection and first 1967 stock deliveries also arrived that way. Trains were tried on the Hainault/Woodford shuttle as 4-cars, and the early ones went via Leyton connection to Northumberland Park BR connection. This was only a handful before route via Picc was commissioned.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 26, 2023 0:44:26 GMT
I guess that to travel via the Piccadilly line they had to switch between the Central and District at Ealing Broadway - and then access the Piccadilly?
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Mar 26, 2023 2:20:58 GMT
I guess that to travel via the Piccadilly line they had to switch between the Central and District at Ealing Broadway - and then access the Piccadilly? Yes the connection between the District and Central lines at Ealing Broadway was in operation . |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Mar 26, 2023 10:24:45 GMT
The Ruislip link wasn’t built till the late 70s early 80s.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Mar 26, 2023 10:28:39 GMT
Remember doing that move at Ealing on a stock move from Ruislip Depot to Northumberland Pk Depot,reversing to the Ealing branch at North Acton.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Mar 26, 2023 10:31:17 GMT
If my memory is correct think two of the units that went to Northumberland Pk via Stratford were 3009 & 3011.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 26, 2023 11:04:42 GMT
The Ruislip link wasn’t built till the late 70s early 80s. Was provided to reduce construction costs of the Jubilee Line phase I to Charing Cross. |
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Post by castlebar on Mar 27, 2023 13:58:10 GMT
I guess that to travel via the Piccadilly line they had to switch between the Central and District at Ealing Broadway - and then access the Piccadilly? Until the 1970s, withdrawn District Line stock was sent to West Ruislip via a connection at Ealing Broadway (Platform 6 = Central, Platform 7 = District) Withdrawn District stock was run to North Acton and reversed there The Ealing Bdy connection was made redundant when the Ruislip chord was built, so was lifted |
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Post by Tom on Mar 27, 2023 15:19:17 GMT
The Ealing Broadway connection was retained until 2011 but had been out of use for some time prior to that - it's possible it hadn't been used since 1993. (I was involved with the decisions to abolish it.)
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Mar 27, 2023 15:53:51 GMT
The Ealing Broadway connection was retained until 2011 but had been out of use for some time prior to that - it's possible it hadn't been used since 1993. (I was involved with the decisions to abolish it.) Yes the connection at Ealing Broadway used to work fine when it was controlled from the Earls Court Regulating Room and White City signal cabin which was at that time staffed by Train Regulators. |
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