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Post by stapler on Jul 1, 2022 21:14:38 GMT
There is a planning application actually in for a mega-development on the site of the former North Weald Golf course, with a private park and ride to and from Epping station. A thousand houses are already planned at North Weald itself, and 500 at "Epping South" by the M25. LU have a huge car park - is it 300 spaces? at Epping, and the aspiration to cash in by a big residential development.. The bus interchange outside Epping station is cramped and downright hazardous. A former Epping councillor advocated conversion of the section of the EOR in cutting north of Epping into a multi-layer car park, by compulsory purchase if necessary. Epping Forest DC have polished their green-gold halo (!) by the current construction of a multi-storey car park on the west side of the High Rd. With the credentials of the EOR as a very good heritage railway growing by the year--- where does all this point to for the future of the Central Line's northern terminus?
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 2, 2022 6:40:41 GMT
I can’t see the Central Line being extended back to Ongar if that’s what you are asking?
Some heritage railways do provide a commuter service (The Romney, Hythe and Dimchurch line is one example) but there would need to be an additional platform built at Epping.
I don’t know the area well but I guess it is possible with support. The rolling stock would be subject to scrutiny of course too.
I note that the Princes Risborough and Chinnor Line has just opened a platform at the Princes Risborough although there was plenty of space there!
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Post by stapler on Jul 2, 2022 6:50:01 GMT
I can’t see the Central Line being extended back to Ongar if that’s what you are asking? Nor do I. It's just that the Central Line at Ongar till 1994 always suffered from lack of custom (green belt restrictions on housing). Now Epping Forest DC are soaking North Weald and Epping with masses of the stuff! |
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Post by Chris L on Jul 2, 2022 8:50:31 GMT
I can’t see the Central Line being extended back to Ongar if that’s what you are asking? Nor do I. It's just that the Central Line at Ongar till 1994 always suffered from lack of custom (green belt restrictions on housing). Now Epping Forest DC are soaking North Weald and Epping with masses of the stuff! As I understand it the aspiration of the Epping-Ongar Railway is an extension to a new platform on the other side of the road bridge at Epping. There would then be a footpath connection to/from the Central line. Money obviously required. |
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Post by coldplayfan18 on Jul 2, 2022 9:50:43 GMT
Apparently Harlow Council want the central line extended to Harlow which I am against. I would much rather it be extended back to Ongar. If anyone who knows the Harlow area well, they will understand why, it’s literally a trash area, possibly worse than Ilford.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 2, 2022 9:53:11 GMT
Harlow is too far out for tube stock on a metro service - even Epping is pushing it. If Harlow is going to be served by a TfL service it should be a new, mainline gauge express service. Possibly something like Harlow-Epping-Loughton-Woodford-Whipps Cross-Walthamstow-Finsbury Park-Camden-King's Cross-Clerkenwell-Farringdon-Chancery Lane-Temple-Waterloo-Walworth-Camberwell-Dulwich-Crystal Palace-Croydon
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Post by Hutch on Jul 2, 2022 9:54:36 GMT
I note that the Princes Risborough and Chinnor Line has just opened a platform at the Princes Risborough although there was plenty of space there! 'Just' being since August 2018.  |
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Post by stapler on Jul 2, 2022 12:06:31 GMT
Harlow is too far out for tube stock on a metro service - even Epping is pushing it. If Harlow is going to be served by a TfL service it should be a new, mainline gauge express service. Possibly something like Harlow-Epping-Loughton-Woodford-Whipps Cross-Walthamstow-Finsbury Park-Camden-King's Cross-Clerkenwell-Farringdon-Chancery Lane-Temple-Waterloo-Walworth-Camberwell-Dulwich-Crystal Palace-Croydon What's the budget? |
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Post by xtmw on Jul 2, 2022 12:16:53 GMT
As someone who uses the Epping branch of the Central line frequently, is it worth extending back to Ongar? The area has changed so it could be a thought.. Harlow has a national rail station, as someone said it isn't the best area... Maybe Harlow is something Crossrail 2 could consider?
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jul 2, 2022 16:32:18 GMT
To Ongar > NO!!
To North Weald? > There's a question that was originally asked 50 or 60 years ago as the M11** was being discussed
**M11 was originally in Gov't files at the "London to Immingham trunk route"
BUT > As North Weald is not in London, WHY should TfLONDON want to spend any money on this?
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 2, 2022 21:00:04 GMT
Given the happy fate of the Epping - Ongar (EOR) service since the tube trains were withdrawn I think that the only viable extension would be of EOR trains to a new EOR station at the suggested 'other side of the bridge' location near to Epping LU station, with a fully accessible walking route between the two stations.
What could then work however is for the EOR to be contracted to run services for commuters etc. to Epping (using battery electric Vivarail D trains?). This way their route remains viable for heritage services too - and it keeps both railway systems separate.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 2, 2022 21:04:17 GMT
Harlow is too far out for tube stock on a metro service - even Epping is pushing it. If Harlow is going to be served by a TfL service it should be a new, mainline gauge express service. Possibly something like Harlow-Epping-Loughton-Woodford-Whipps Cross-Walthamstow-Finsbury Park-Camden-King's Cross-Clerkenwell-Farringdon-Chancery Lane-Temple-Waterloo-Walworth-Camberwell-Dulwich-Crystal Palace-Croydon What's the budget? It wouldn't be cheap, but that's isn't what should matter. The ultimate question should be "would it be good value for money?" and while it would certainly have a lot of benefits in adding new connections and relieving existing lines it would need a lot more detail than 5 minutes looking at a map can give to answer that; so the first question is "is this a concept worth exploring?" and if we were in a situation where providing funding for infrastructure projects that provided significant benefits to the country (or parts thereof) was something the government were interested in then I think the answer to that would be yes. It would be stage one of a process that took an input of a large number of "lines-on-a-map" level ideas and gave each one a shallow investigation with possible outcomes of "yes", "refine" and "no". Ideas rated "no" would progress no further, ideas rated "refine" would be refined and re-examined, those rated "yes" would go on to the next stage. That next stage would be a slightly more in depth investigation and would have the same three possible outcomes. This would repeat many times with each stage being a more detailed investigation of fewer schemes than the previous one, eventually feeding the pipeline of construction projects. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 2, 2022 22:14:07 GMT
What Harlow needs is an off-road rapid transport system that gets passengers to its existing railway station without delay. Oh and more local employment so that people do not need to spend 3 hours a day (90 mins each direction) travelling between home and work.
The fares / travel costs issue is something else - no doubt TfL are happy to have the season ticket passengers.
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Post by quex on Jul 3, 2022 6:58:04 GMT
What could then work however is for the EOR to be contracted to run services for commuters etc. to Epping (using battery electric Vivarail D trains?). This way their route remains viable for heritage services too - and it keeps both railway systems separate. I think that in order for an independent Epping-North Weald shuttle to be viable, it would require line speeds greater than 25 mph. However, due to legislation and regulation for preserved railways, to achieve this is very onerous in terms of track maintenance. Even the Great Central Railway, which is one of the best funded in the country and has 40+ mph capable track, does not operate passenger services at more than 25 mph, so I fear it may be beyond the resources of the EOR too. |
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Post by xtmw on Jul 3, 2022 8:54:44 GMT
What could then work however is for the EOR to be contracted to run services for commuters etc. to Epping (using battery electric Vivarail D trains?). This way their route remains viable for heritage services too - and it keeps both railway systems separate. I think that in order for an independent Epping-North Weald shuttle to be viable, it would require line speeds greater than 25 mph. However, due to legislation and regulation for preserved railways, to achieve this is very onerous in terms of track maintenance. Even the Great Central Railway, which is one of the best funded in the country and has 40+ mph capable track, does not operate passenger services at more than 25 mph, so I fear it may be beyond the resources of the EOR too. Couldn't this call for track replacement though? Even if the railway was to be reopened, it would need it's track replaced anyway? |
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Post by coldplayfan18 on Jul 3, 2022 10:25:58 GMT
After Epping you can still see the unused tracks running out of the station and under the bridge towards Ongar. I was wondering how far down from Epping is actually owned by TFL?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 3, 2022 11:28:46 GMT
After Epping you can still see the unused tracks running out of the station and under the bridge towards Ongar. I was wondering how far down from Epping is actually owned by TFL? Not far according to the Epping Ongar Railway website which says there's "just 100 metres between the end of our running line and the end of the Central Line" and "the buffer stops can be seen at the boundary". EOR has plans to build a new platform at "Epping Glade" although no suggestion of where funding would come from. TfL are certainly unlikely to want to fund anything outside Greater London and I doubt if Epping Forest council has any spare cash lying around www.eorailway.co.uk/the-railway/along-the-branch/ |
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Post by Chris L on Jul 3, 2022 13:17:28 GMT
After Epping you can still see the unused tracks running out of the station and under the bridge towards Ongar. I was wondering how far down from Epping is actually owned by TFL? Not far according to the Epping Ongar Railway website which says there's "just 100 metres between the end of our running line and the end of the Central Line" and "the buffer stops can be seen at the boundary". EOR has plans to build a new platform at "Epping Glade" although no suggestion of where funding would come from. TfL are certainly unlikely to want to fund anything outside Greater London and I doubt if Epping Forest council has any spare cash lying around www.eorailway.co.uk/the-railway/along-the-branch/As stated above EOR runs occasional double headed trains beyond North Weald towards Epping. |
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Post by stapler on Jul 4, 2022 6:49:34 GMT
Not far according to the Epping Ongar Railway website which says there's "just 100 metres between the end of our running line and the end of the Central Line" and "the buffer stops can be seen at the boundary". EOR has plans to build a new platform at "Epping Glade" although no suggestion of where funding would come from. TfL are certainly unlikely to want to fund anything outside Greater London and I doubt if Epping Forest council has any spare cash lying around htt It wouldn't be Epping Forest DC. It would be Essex County Council, who are the transport authority. And they are definitely skint, with a £10m funding gap looming |
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Post by Chris L on Jul 4, 2022 8:18:46 GMT
It wouldn't be Epping Forest DC. It would be Essex County Council, who are the transport authority. And they are definitely skint, with a £10m funding gap looming The local council could get a levy from developers to be used for improvements to the area in return for granting planning consent. |
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Post by stapler on Jul 4, 2022 15:32:22 GMT
The planning authority are Epping Forest DC; the transport authority Essex CC. EFDC do not have powers to impose a Community Infrastructure Levy, so a s.106 agreement would necessitate the 106 moneys being essential in the vicinity of the proposed development in order to make the planning consent acceptable...
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jul 4, 2022 15:41:04 GMT
Essex CC are probably the hardest English county south of the Humber to get money from for things like this
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Post by quex on Jul 4, 2022 18:23:14 GMT
Couldn't this call for track replacement though? Even if the railway was to be reopened, it would need it's track replaced anyway? I imagine track replacement would be required, but there's also the continuous maintenance to consider. 40 mph track needs to be continually maintained to a greater standard than 25 mph track. |
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Jul 4, 2022 19:33:20 GMT
I would imagine the owner of the EOR, also being a "property developer" as I understand it, may have an interest in local developments.
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Post by Chris L on Jul 4, 2022 19:56:49 GMT
Couldn't this call for track replacement though? Even if the railway was to be reopened, it would need it's track replaced anyway? I imagine track replacement would be required, but there's also the continuous maintenance to consider. 40 mph track needs to be continually maintained to a greater standard than 25 mph track. The track is already in place most (if not all) of the way to the proposed station. I rode on a train last year over the stretch. |
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Post by stapler on Jul 5, 2022 7:54:10 GMT
The distance between Epping and North Weald stations by rail is/was 2.932 miles, so the difference in journey time between 25 and 40mph would be hardly crucial.....
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 5, 2022 8:01:39 GMT
I would imagine the owner of the EOR, also being a "property developer" as I understand it, may have an interest in local developments. Did a bit of digging Quinn Estates and Redrow Homes applied to redevelop North Weald Golf Course back in 2018 since when there have been a number of changes but Epping Forest council still haven't given approval. Quinn Estates have now appealed against Epping Forest's failure to make a decision and the likely outcome is a public inquiry later this year The development would include 555 homes (40% affordable), a 70-bed retirement home, a 70-bed nursing home, a primary school, medical centre, a local shopping centre, a sports pavilion with open-air pitches, a scouts hut, office space, a new country park, a park-and-ride bus station and road works including a new roundabout on the A414. I couldn't find any connection between Epping Ongar Railway Ltd (registered office in Upminster) and Quinn Estates (Canterbury) or Redrow Homes (N Wales) on the Companies House website |
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Post by stapler on Jul 5, 2022 8:30:45 GMT
Also, the NW Golf course is in Rayley Lane, hard against the A414 North Weald by-pass, so in the antipodes of North Weald from the station, and unwalkable for commuting.
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Post by trumperscrossing on Jul 11, 2022 6:58:13 GMT
Apparently Harlow Council want the central line extended to Harlow which I am against. I would much rather it be extended back to Ongar. If anyone who knows the Harlow area well, they will understand why, it’s literally a trash area, possibly worse than Ilford. We clearly have a trash prejudiced poster. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 11, 2022 8:37:26 GMT
Harlow council floated this idea about a year ago and there was supposed to be a public consultation last autumn but just how it would be funded seemed uncertain. As with reopening the Ongar line fleet limitations would mean any expansion of service would require cutting services to other parts of the line (ain't going to happen)
Seems like another project created by someone with an extensive Crayola collection...
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