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Post by jamesb on Apr 14, 2022 16:44:51 GMT
So if there are ?59 S8 trains, and 31 'good' trains, that would suggest that almost half the S8 fleet passed through the wheel lathe in question in a short space of time, assuming the problem was spotted quickly.
How often do trains get their wheels adjusted? I guess with the intensity of use, and current track infrastructure, it is quite often!
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Post by njr001 on Apr 14, 2022 17:14:40 GMT
Does anybody if Good Friday is considered to be a Monday to Friday? At least there is a now a notice at Ricky which states Monday - Friday First trains to Baker Street 05:41 & 05:56 and then every 15 minutes at xx:11 and xx:26, xx:41 and xx:56 All trains will run fast to Baker Street
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Post by firestorm on Apr 14, 2022 19:31:21 GMT
So if there are ?59 S8 trains, and 31 'good' trains, that would suggest that almost half the S8 fleet passed through the wheel lathe in question in a short space of time, assuming the problem was spotted quickly. How often do trains get their wheels adjusted? I guess with the intensity of use, and current track infrastructure, it is quite often! On average every 230,000km before a S8 visits the wheel lathe so that equates to about 1.5 years. Under normal circumstances, it takes about a week to cut all the wheels. At the moment there are 2 checks taking places, a "LT5 wheel gauging" which is the quicker process and gives you an idea if a wheelset passes or fails e.g. flanges/tread depth. The 31 trains would have passed this. The other check is a lot more involved and is called "miniprof", this gives a high precision and accurate profile of the wheel. Even though a wheel fails the wheel gauging, the results from the miniprof will be used to decide whether a train can continue to run, as long as it is still within engineering specs and tolerances. This is a simpliflied overview of course, there are many measurements/data which is taken into account to ensure it is still safe to run. An example would be the tyre on your car, it hasn't quite reached the 1.6mm legal limit so you can still use it, but you would re-check it more often.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 14, 2022 19:31:31 GMT
As I understand it, the service on Good Friday will be the current 'special' Monday to Friday service. Saturday, Sunday, and Monday will be the normal service (though I assume Monday will be to a Saturday timetable as per other Bank Holidays?).
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Post by graeme186 on Apr 14, 2022 20:57:34 GMT
When this special service was operated last summer, on Sundays, the Chesham-Baker Street service was replaced by a Chesham-Watford shuttle using two less trains. Given Wembley football this weekend (and other weekends to come), I guess we can expect the four train Chesham-Baker Street service to operate on Sundays?
Also when schools return after the Easter break, there are lots of school children who travel from stations between Northwood to North Harrow and stations between Rickmansworth and Amersham. I suggest some select services need to be identified to run all stations north of Harrow to avoid children unnecessarily having to change at Moor Park. When this special service operated last summer, it was school summer holiday time.
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 14, 2022 21:19:55 GMT
So if there are ?59 S8 trains, and 31 'good' trains, that would suggest that almost half the S8 fleet passed through the wheel lathe in question in a short space of time, assuming the problem was spotted quickly. How often do trains get their wheels adjusted? I guess with the intensity of use, and current track infrastructure, it is quite often! I think the S8 fleet is set at 58 trains with the spare train reduced to an S7 for additional capacity on the District/Hammersmith or Circle services.
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Post by firestorm on Apr 15, 2022 0:34:43 GMT
So if there are ?59 S8 trains, and 31 'good' trains, that would suggest that almost half the S8 fleet passed through the wheel lathe in question in a short space of time, assuming the problem was spotted quickly. How often do trains get their wheels adjusted? I guess with the intensity of use, and current track infrastructure, it is quite often! I think the S8 fleet is set at 58 trains with the spare train reduced to an S7 for additional capacity on the District/Hammersmith or Circle services. There is actually 59 trains in the met line fleet list, the additional one being the s7+1 u21324. This train remained as is with the flexibility of being changed back into a s7 if need be, although I don't see that happening in the near future.
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Post by andypurk on Apr 15, 2022 1:20:32 GMT
Unless things have changed since my time on stations (1997-2003) you can't change "tapping in time" for individual stations, it would have to be the whole system. Oyster is 1990s technology and to keep costs down it was designed as a "one size fits all" system. Then again that was nearly 20 years ago, my memory might not be working quite as well as it used to Oyster does support different peak periods for different journeys, e.g. you are charged peak fare for Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston in the morning only, but the reverse journey has morning and afternoon/evening peaks. I have no idea how this works, and there is no guarantee that it could be used for the Amersham situation. Something that I think might be possible (assuming desire, etc) would be charge the peak fare as normal but automatically refund the difference between peak and off-peak fares for those people who tapped in at Amersham between say 09:20 and 09:30*. AIUI this would have to be done overnight and applied on the next tap in, so occasional travellers might lose out, but it would be better than nothing. *It might have to be dependent on touch-out location if there are any Chiltern trains in that window as I don't think TfL would be allowed to alter the fares for those services without Chiltern's agreement. It is also worth noting that off-peak touch-in starts at 09:27 (giving a grace period for issues with clocks being wrong etc.). So, it should be possible to pay an off-peak fare for travel on the 09:30. TfL doesn't have peak/off-peak trains, but relies on the time of touch-in to work out the fare to be paid. I have taken advantage of this to travel on the 16.03 from Euston, charged off-peak, on occasion. I believe that TfL cash fares are now all anytime of day. Details of the grace periods (from a FoI request in 2017) are here: www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/oyster_card_peakoff_peak_grace_p
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Apr 15, 2022 5:03:15 GMT
A pity the poor Met has been short of drivers and signalers for a couple of years, and now it's short of trains!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 15, 2022 5:04:55 GMT
So if there are ?59 S8 trains, and 31 'good' trains, that would suggest that almost half the S8 fleet passed through the wheel lathe in question in a short space of time, assuming the problem was spotted quickly. I think the S8 fleet is set at 58 trains with the spare train reduced to an S7 for additional capacity on the District/Hammersmith or Circle services. There are 58 S8 trains plus the permanently allocated S7+1 21323/24 which was nominally the additional train for the 59 train Extension service.
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 15, 2022 10:52:52 GMT
When this special service was operated last summer, on Sundays, the Chesham-Baker Street service was replaced by a Chesham-Watford shuttle using two less trains. Given Wembley football this weekend (and other weekends to come), I guess we can expect the four train Chesham-Baker Street service to operate on Sundays? Also when schools return after the Easter break, there are lots of school children who travel from stations between Northwood to North Harrow and stations between Rickmansworth and Amersham. I suggest some select services need to be identified to run all stations north of Harrow to avoid children unnecessarily having to change at Moor Park. When this special service operated last summer, it was school summer holiday time. As already mentioned a number of times in this thread, the usual working timetable will be operation at weekends (including Bank Holiday Monday). Current estimates would suggest the usual WTT being re-instated towards the end of the month, albeit with some 'planned cancellations' until the full fleet is available again.
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Post by d7666 on Apr 15, 2022 22:28:15 GMT
So if there are ?59 S8 trains, and 31 'good' trains, that would suggest that almost half the S8 fleet passed through the wheel lathe in question in a short space of time, assuming the problem was spotted quickly. How often do trains get their wheels adjusted? I guess with the intensity of use, and current track infrastructure, it is quite often! On average every 230,000km before a S8 visits the wheel lathe so that equates to about 1.5 years. Under normal circumstances, it takes about a week to cut all the wheels. At the moment there are 2 checks taking places, a "LT5 wheel gauging" which is the quicker process and gives you an idea if a wheelset passes or fails e.g. flanges/tread depth. The 31 trains would have passed this. The other check is a lot more involved and is called "miniprof", this gives a high precision and accurate profile of the wheel. Even though a wheel fails the wheel gauging, the results from the miniprof will be used to decide whether a train can continue to run, as long as it is still within engineering specs and tolerances. This is a simpliflied overview of course, there are many measurements/data which is taken into account to ensure it is still safe to run. An example would be the tyre on your car, it hasn't quite reached the 1.6mm legal limit so you can still use it, but you would re-check it more often. Thanks for the informative posting. Would you know if it is technically possible to turn an S8 at Upminster or Ealing Common ( _ NOT going into the issues of how one would get there operationally) ... or is it that those depots lathes are fully occupied with S7 work ? Normal S8 running then is 1.5 years for 59 units at 1 a week is approaching - in practical terms - continuous throughput always of one per week. 133 S7 assume split 50:50 comes out about the same throughput - well ~66 is the same order of magnitude as 59 - so I assume there is no spare capacity at the S7 depots to do S8 work without compromising the S7 fleet ? Or, to ask that question, are any S8 being dealt with at the S7 depots ?
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Apr 16, 2022 2:30:57 GMT
Provision was made for S7 and S8 to visit all three major depots in case of such a problem. The current fleet numbers are generous for existing timetables, being intended for 32tph services after resignalling, so all need not be available currently. I presume some delay in S7 visits could be tolerated to deal with the S8 crisis. But this is from an outsiders viewpoiint, so hope an insider can update us on current situation.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Apr 16, 2022 7:28:08 GMT
Or, to ask that question, are any S8 being dealt with at the S7 depots ? Not currently, no. As for the rest of your post, you are assuming that the solution to the problem is run all the defective wheelsets through a wheel lathe. It could be the case that the defective wheelsets could be so far out of tolerance that they cannot be corrected by re-visiting a wheel lathe....
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Post by 100andthirty on Apr 16, 2022 13:48:43 GMT
Or, to ask that question, are any S8 being dealt with at the S7 depots ? Not currently, no. As for the rest of your post, you are assuming that the solution to the problem is run all the defective wheelsets through a wheel lathe. It could be the case that the defective wheelsets could be so far out of tolerance that they cannot be corrected by re-visiting a wheel lathe.... Or, it could be the case that the last turning took the wheels down to the minimum diameter for a newly turned wheel.
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Post by bigvern on Apr 16, 2022 14:58:01 GMT
The trains I understand have been measured as having thin flanges as a result of previous turning and out of calibration lathe, with additional wear since being on wheel lathe, due to the age and Kms of the trains many now have small diameter wheels which are now being replaced as part of a programme lift and minor overhaul. Wheels have to be removed from the bogies which require an 8 car lift to change the wheelpans, so it is not a quick job with wheelsets going to Acton to have the new wheelpans put onto the axles. To get a thin flanged wheel to gauge requires more metal to be removed during turning, as a result many wheelsets cannot be turned as would be below scrap size, the minimum wheelsize is critical as gearbox and other components would then foul the gauge and cause further damage.
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Post by firestorm on Apr 16, 2022 16:36:38 GMT
On average every 230,000km before a S8 visits the wheel lathe so that equates to about 1.5 years. Under normal circumstances, it takes about a week to cut all the wheels. At the moment there are 2 checks taking places, a "LT5 wheel gauging" which is the quicker process and gives you an idea if a wheelset passes or fails e.g. flanges/tread depth. The 31 trains would have passed this. The other check is a lot more involved and is called "miniprof", this gives a high precision and accurate profile of the wheel. Even though a wheel fails the wheel gauging, the results from the miniprof will be used to decide whether a train can continue to run, as long as it is still within engineering specs and tolerances. This is a simpliflied overview of course, there are many measurements/data which is taken into account to ensure it is still safe to run. An example would be the tyre on your car, it hasn't quite reached the 1.6mm legal limit so you can still use it, but you would re-check it more often. Thanks for the informative posting. Would you know if it is technically possible to turn an S8 at Upminster or Ealing Common ( _ NOT going into the issues of how one would get there operationally) ... or is it that those depots lathes are fully occupied with S7 work ? Normal S8 running then is 1.5 years for 59 units at 1 a week is approaching - in practical terms - continuous throughput always of one per week. 133 S7 assume split 50:50 comes out about the same throughput - well ~66 is the same order of magnitude as 59 - so I assume there is no spare capacity at the S7 depots to do S8 work without compromising the S7 fleet ? Or, to ask that question, are any S8 being dealt with at the S7 depots ? Technically, yes they can be turned at any depot. Although the wheel lathe at Ealing has long been decommissioned and is now concreted over (wheel lathe taken out first and then concrete poured in, not just over the wheel lathe). But no, S8 currently being dealt with at Neasden.
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Post by d7666 on Apr 16, 2022 18:17:33 GMT
Thanks for the informative posting. Would you know if it is technically possible to turn an S8 at Upminster or Ealing Common ( _ NOT going into the issues of how one would get there operationally) ... or is it that those depots lathes are fully occupied with S7 work ? Normal S8 running then is 1.5 years for 59 units at 1 a week is approaching - in practical terms - continuous throughput always of one per week. 133 S7 assume split 50:50 comes out about the same throughput - well ~66 is the same order of magnitude as 59 - so I assume there is no spare capacity at the S7 depots to do S8 work without compromising the S7 fleet ? Or, to ask that question, are any S8 being dealt with at the S7 depots ? Technically, yes they can be turned at any depot. Although the wheel lathe at Ealing has long been decommissioned and is now concreted over (wheel lathe taken out first and then concrete poured in, not just over the wheel lathe). But no, S8 currently being dealt with at Neasden. Thanks. I didn't know Ealing lathe had gone, been quite a while since I was there.
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Post by d7666 on Apr 16, 2022 18:20:54 GMT
Or, to ask that question, are any S8 being dealt with at the S7 depots ? Not currently, no. As for the rest of your post, you are assuming that the solution to the problem is run all the defective wheelsets through a wheel lathe. It could be the case that the defective wheelsets could be so far out of tolerance that they cannot be corrected by re-visiting a wheel lathe.... No, that was not my assumption, although, I see my posting could be interpreted that way. Rather, it was a digression question, about depot lathe throughput in general work, not just this issue. Besides, w.r.t. the issue in hand, upthread I had already made comment about possibilty of scrapping wheelsets and have to assume readers took that as read.
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Post by bomo on Apr 18, 2022 15:14:57 GMT
Oyster does support different peak periods for different journeys, e.g. you are charged peak fare for Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston in the morning only, but the reverse journey has morning and afternoon/evening peaks. I have no idea how this works, and there is no guarantee that it could be used for the Amersham situation. Something that I think might be possible (assuming desire, etc) would be charge the peak fare as normal but automatically refund the difference between peak and off-peak fares for those people who tapped in at Amersham between say 09:20 and 09:30*. AIUI this would have to be done overnight and applied on the next tap in, so occasional travellers might lose out, but it would be better than nothing. *It might have to be dependent on touch-out location if there are any Chiltern trains in that window as I don't think TfL would be allowed to alter the fares for those services without Chiltern's agreement. It is also worth noting that off-peak touch-in starts at 09:27 (giving a grace period for issues with clocks being wrong etc.). So, it should be possible to pay an off-peak fare for travel on the 09:30. TfL doesn't have peak/off-peak trains, but relies on the time of touch-in to work out the fare to be paid. I have taken advantage of this to travel on the 16.03 from Euston, charged off-peak, on occasion. I believe that TfL cash fares are now all anytime of day. Details of the grace periods (from a FoI request in 2017) are here: www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/oyster_card_peakoff_peak_grace_p
And there are a handful of stations where the off peak cap starts earlier. Amersham is one of those stations and the off peak cap starts there at 0910 although as stated the off peak fares don't kick in until 0930 (ignoring the grace period)
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a60
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Post by a60 on Apr 21, 2022 16:50:59 GMT
How are things progressing with getting the fleet back up to speed, would anyone know? I have started seeing some more units with fresh wheels on them, and been greeted on the journey home by 21323/24 which I haven’t had the pleasure of being on for several weeks.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 21, 2022 22:11:46 GMT
I'm reliably informed there are currently 36 "good" trains, which is expected to rise to 42 after the bank holiday.
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Post by graeme186 on Apr 21, 2022 22:52:05 GMT
From observations on my commute last week, the 31 'good' trains kindly referenced by rincew1nd earlier in this thread have been: 03/5/7/9,11/3/5/7/9,21/9,31/3/5/9,43/5,51,61/5,71/3,81/3/9,93/5/7/9,105 & 323.
This week, I have additionally observed 41,59,69,75 and 115 on my commute which makes the 36 'good' trains referenced above.
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Post by scheduler on Apr 24, 2022 22:12:00 GMT
I understand some Met trains have been transferred to Upminster to be fixed.
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 25, 2022 8:42:23 GMT
I understand some Met trains have been transferred to Upminster to be fixed. You understand incorrectly.
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Post by A60stock on Apr 25, 2022 9:39:54 GMT
Very poor day as there were issues on the H&C and Circle causing delays for met line customers coming into baker st and having to change.
I understand the weekend service is now back to normal yet the rush hour service is not. Why is this? Surely the priority should be the weekday service (even if its only a few days a week!).
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 25, 2022 9:47:40 GMT
I understand the weekend service is now back to normal yet the rush hour service is not. Why is this? Surely the priority should be the weekday service (even if its only a few days a week!). 48 trains required M-F 35 required weekends totals currently available in previous posts
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2022 14:02:45 GMT
Just seen a photo of an S8 in Upminster depot ...
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 25, 2022 14:30:15 GMT
Just seen a photo of an S8 in Upminster depot ... For signal sighting, rather than for fixing. (Unless the plans have changed dramatically over the weekend.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2022 15:29:35 GMT
I have it on good authority from test crews that S8s have been and are going to Upminster for both reasons.
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