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Post by A60stock on Apr 11, 2022 18:24:08 GMT
The information generally is bad. Although the posters at the stations between harrow and moor park say the amersham and chesham service is every 30 mins, they fail to state that these run fast! You would therefore think the service is 8tph instead of 4.
A timetable is needed for peak travellers and I cannot understand why it's not available yet. Poor show by those in charge of information distribution (or equivalent)
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Post by aldenham on Apr 11, 2022 18:39:33 GMT
As a long time LU enthusiast who is by and large fairly understanding of the problems of running such a monolith, it has become increasingly difficult to remain sympathetic as a regular commuter from Chesham, so much so that I have largely in the last few months given up going in by train and have returned to using my motorbike. Simply because the service had become so unreliable, with hour and not that uncommon 90 minute gaps ocurring, or advertised. However, I don't get quite so excited as some other members of the Chesham Commuters Facebook group!
But credit where it is due, not that I used it today, but from what I have seen we have had the best and most reliable service to and from Amersham and Chesham today that we have had for months, and with a clockface service and off-peak fast trains to boot.So much so that some are asking for it to become permanent!
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Post by d7666 on Apr 11, 2022 19:26:42 GMT
What is the purpose of the wheel lathe? Is it a case of keeping the wheels 'round' if they have become flat, or is the process a bit more complex? I am guessing that if the wheels have ended up becoming too small, they would have to be scrapped? Yes and yes. Yes to restore circularity to the wheel set, and yes once they are down to a certain size, scrap. If wheelsets were not turned to restore circularity and profile, they'd have to be exchanged, and dealt with off line. If one unit gets into a significant wheel slide, multiple wheelsets on that whole unit need attention, so overall better the complete unit goes over the lathe axle by axle. OK this is an advertisment, but it gives an indication of what is done : railways.danobatgroup.com/en/underfloor-wheel-latheand click on the 'equipment' tab Complete units, or, in this next picture, just one axle seperately allatsea.co.za/musings/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/northam_td-137.jpgThat axle is from main line Desiro at Northam. I am sure there are images of the three SSL depot lathes somewhere, I just didn't search that deeply. There usually are if only for the trainspotting anorak interest of the little yellow shunting tugs each site has to manoevure units over the lathe.
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Post by d7666 on Apr 11, 2022 19:34:37 GMT
delays on the M25 doesn't mean fewer vehicles! Delays on the M25 does mean fewer vehicles PER HOUR, or, inversion, longer interval for consecutive vehicles to pass. Result = everyone is delayed. Delays on London Undergound usually does mean fewer trains per hour, or, inversion, longer interval between following trains. Result = everyone is delayed. Same thing. Result = everyone is delayed.
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Post by roverlei on Apr 11, 2022 20:18:53 GMT
Would it be possible to extend the Rayners Lane Piccadilly terminators to Uxbridge to give 10tph to the majority of stations on the Uxbridge branch? An innocent suggestion!! But assuming they are qualified to drive 1973TS, a. how would you draft in any currently surplus Met drivers from their various signing-in points to take over Piccadilly duties at Rayners Lane and b. given that the typical Rayners Lane to Uxbridge and back to Rayners Lane trip takes around 40 minutes, where are you going to find the extra rolling stock neccesary to fill in the gaps left by the Rayners Lane terminators? So we need four extra sets I think, TTNs and new roster plans for both Met and Picc. Should be able to do that by tea-time. If you read more recent met Line posts, I was summarily 'put in my place' about how few Met Line drivers there allegedly are, so the only silver lining I can see in this entire debacle is that one won't need to do anything to stem the surplus of Met Line drivers because apparently there aren't any. So that solves that.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 11, 2022 20:20:15 GMT
What is the purpose of the wheel lathe? Is it a case of keeping the wheels 'round' if they have become flat, or is the process a bit more complex? Less a case of removing flats, more a case of ensuring it is the correct profile. At low speeds the wheel flanges keep the wheelset on the track (leading to the common flange squeal; at higher speeds it is the exact shape of the conical wheel that keeps the train on the track. An incorrect profile can lead to flange climb, which may sound like fun to some people but unfortunately often ends in derailment. Mmmm, flange.
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Post by roverlei on Apr 11, 2022 20:20:24 GMT
The information generally is bad. Although the posters at the stations between harrow and moor park say the amersham and chesham service is every 30 mins, they fail to state that these run fast! You would therefore think the service is 8tph instead of 4. A timetable is needed for peak travellers and I cannot understand why it's not available yet. Poor show by those in charge of information distribution (or equivalent) Kind of feel validated by posts like this because after shaving been laid into by met Line staff for my having pointed out previously that communication about the shortcomings of the met line is very poor, I was shot down for that. So I'm glad others are now beginning to independently recognise my own experiences.
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Post by roverlei on Apr 11, 2022 20:22:54 GMT
roverlei you seem to be confused about the the purpose of this forum. It's not run by T fL and it's not the place to vent your frustrations at them. This forum is run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. I get it. I understand that. What I do get ticked off about is being lectured by people for pointing out bad service when I see it.
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 11, 2022 21:29:48 GMT
I appreciate and understand the problems a lack of stock causes, it's just very frustrating not having details of the 'Special Service' when planning travel in the peaks. Journey Planner tomorrow lists the normal number of trains in the peak with a Special Service Note We are running a special service on the Met Line until further notice, please check before you travel. Presumably there is a Working Timetable but it's not in the public domain, this must be as frustrating for staff as customers. Emergency timetable, produced locally. Unfortunately this means it won't appear on Journey Planners (it is quite literally a spreadsheet exported as a PDF), but as I've mentioned previously it is robust and generally will run to time - provided that there is enough serviceable rolling stock.
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Post by d7666 on Apr 11, 2022 21:41:23 GMT
I appreciate and understand the problems a lack of stock causes, it's just very frustrating not having details of the 'Special Service' when planning travel in the peaks. Journey Planner tomorrow lists the normal number of trains in the peak with a Special Service Note We are running a special service on the Met Line until further notice, please check before you travel. Presumably there is a Working Timetable but it's not in the public domain, this must be as frustrating for staff as customers. Emergency timetable, produced locally. Unfortunately this means it won't appear on Journey Planners (it is quite literally a spreadsheet exported as a PDF), but as I've mentioned previously it is robust and generally will run to time - provided that there is enough serviceable rolling stock. From a /quick/ look at trackernet hq clock off peak there seemed to me to be more trains - in fact double - to Amersham than the in the emergency timetable papeerwork ? Looks like there were 4 TPH Amersham and 2 TPH Chesham actually run against 2 and 2 planned ? EDIT - d'oh silly me; the other 2 TPH are Chilterns .........
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Post by johnlinford on Apr 11, 2022 21:54:25 GMT
What is the purpose of the wheel lathe? Is it a case of keeping the wheels 'round' if they have become flat, or is the process a bit more complex? Less a case of removing flats, more a case of ensuring it is the correct profile. At low speeds the wheel flanges keep the wheelset on the track (leading to the common flange squeal; at higher speeds it is the exact shape of the conical wheel that keeps the train on the track. An incorrect profile can lead to flange climb, which may sound like fun to some people but unfortunately often ends in derailment. Mmmm, flange. On the one hand, behave (or Carry On up the Metropolitan). On the other hand thank you for this explanation as I'd also been in the "what, just making circles can't be that hard" camp!
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Post by d7666 on Apr 11, 2022 23:55:23 GMT
What is the purpose of the wheel lathe? Is it a case of keeping the wheels 'round' if they have become flat, or is the process a bit more complex? Less a case of removing flats, more a case of ensuring it is the correct profile. At low speeds the wheel flanges keep the wheelset on the track (leading to the common flange squeal; at higher speeds it is the exact shape of the conical wheel that keeps the train on the track. An incorrect profile can lead to flange climb, which may sound like fun to some people but unfortunately often ends in derailment. Mmmm, flange. With ATO, wheel circularity is very important. There are very precise sensors determining location that depend on correct wheel rotation. What you say about profile, conicity, etc is undoubtedly correct, but wheel circularity is ever more important these days than it used to be - exact train positioning highly depends on it.
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Post by quex on Apr 12, 2022 6:59:58 GMT
How does the odometry system factor in the reduced diameter of a wheel after it's visited a lathe? Are the new wheel diameters input manually?
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Post by plunet on Apr 12, 2022 8:40:51 GMT
I wouldn't bet on it, the management have been running a "special operation" on the Met Line for months with complete disregard to the timetable or proper customer information about their intentions, with various excuses and fake news leaked from time to time. This just means that they have come up with a concrete excuse that they're now going to publish and formalises what has been close to normal for a while. I’d be very interested to see your source for this, plus any concrete evidence. I doubt you will be able to provide it, though. My source is my practical experience, both first person and those who I know locally and have to put up with the inceasingly shoddy service. Whilst I won't provide evidence as I've lost enough of my life due to Metropolitan line issues, and I can see there are others on this thread reporting a similar experience. What I can say that the level of refunds (>15min delay) I am getting over the past year is exceeding the latter years of the A-stock service at the end of the noughties which also had considerable reliability challenges and is on average more than 20% of the journeys I make, despite me travelling less these days. More often than not it's random cancellations, usually with no warning and all whilst it's a "good service". By TfLs own measures I believe that a 15min service gap qualifies as minor delays.... one cancelled Chesham or Amersham should immediately qualify, but it never does. On the outer reaches of the met usually the platform indicators don't know the next train isn't coming... the staff are completely demoralised and fed up being berated by customers for the lack of reliable service and obviously have no motification to do anything proactive like keep an eye on Tracknet to keep customers informed, or call/radio station to station to warn of a cancellation. These "special timetables" are also obviously top secret. They don't make it to jounrney planner usually, or if they do it takes weeks. If you're lucky you might get a hand scribbled notice of the headline of the timetable when you actually get to the station (whereupon you find out you've just missed a train). The met is hardly a turn up and go service, and less more so when it's on "special operations" so expecting customers to engage with the ammended service without making the timetable readily available is another management disgrace. Basically - if you need to get somewhere by a certain time, get the Chiltern. But if you want a spin the wheel of fortune and get a free ride cos it's probably going to be delayed or mangled, get the Met.
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 12, 2022 8:44:21 GMT
So confirmation bias then, thanks for confirming.
Given you don’t see fit to actually provide data, I will also not provide data - but I will say that the vast majority of Met services run to headway, and cancellations are significantly reduced from where they were a year ago. Those that do remain are consistent with other Tube lines.
My sources? The Harrow train registers, about as primary as you can get.
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Post by t697 on Apr 12, 2022 13:29:00 GMT
How does the odometry system factor in the reduced diameter of a wheel after it's visited a lathe? Are the new wheel diameters input manually? With this ATC, yes manual input.
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Post by d7666 on Apr 12, 2022 15:49:31 GMT
How does the odometry system factor in the reduced diameter of a wheel after it's visited a lathe? Are the new wheel diameters input manually? With this ATC, yes manual input. Glad you answered that one, as I didn't know how it was done.
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Post by t697 on Apr 13, 2022 14:56:32 GMT
Does this special timetable include 'inverted' semi-fasts? I rode T712 today from Baker St platform 4, departed 15:00 and the T/Op announced it would be all stations to Harrow then fast to Moor Park and terminate at Amersham. The station and train systems just called it an Amersham semi-fast. on arrival at Finchley Road the T/Op told us it would now be all stations Amersham due to cancellation of an adjacent Watford.
Station and Train CIS are not programmed with the 'inverted' semi-fast pattern. Is this a common pattern in the special timetable or just coping with a perturbation?
Predictably, as this Amersham train stopped at North Harrow the station was giving a recorded PA telling us that Amersham and Chesham trains weren't stopping there and take the first train to Moor Park... :-)
As an employee I think I'm allowed a little moan?
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 13, 2022 15:34:49 GMT
Does this special timetable include 'inverted' semi-fasts? Yes, as posted on page one. It is also worth pointing out that the Amersham and Chesham service runs fast between Harrow and Moor Park. I rode T712 today from Baker St platform 4, departed 15:00 and the T/Op announced it would be all stations to Harrow then fast to Moor Park and terminate at Amersham. The station and train systems just called it an Amersham semi-fast. on arrival at Finchley Road the T/Op told us it would now be all stations Amersham due to cancellation of an adjacent Watford. Station and Train CIS are not programmed with the 'inverted' semi-fast pattern. Is this a common pattern in the special timetable or just coping with a perturbation? Common in the special and gets used quite a lot to 'make up' time, particularly on the south. It is certainly used enough to warrant its inclusion on train systems, yet sadly it does not exist. Predictably, as this Amersham train stopped at North Harrow the station was giving a recorded PA telling us that Amersham and Chesham trains weren't stopping there and take the first train to Moor Park... :-) As an employee I think I'm allowed a little moan? The frustrations at the customer information around the special are shared by almost everyone involved in running this timetable, without a doubt, although arguably in this instance altering an 'all day' PA for one train would cause far more hassle than its worth for staff involved. 'Take the first train and change' is always sage advice.
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Post by adamskiodp on Apr 13, 2022 16:04:59 GMT
I have just been informed by TFL Twitter that during the ‘special timetable’ the first off peak train from Amersham is now the 10.00 am, as tapping in before 09.30 is a peak fare.
Surely they could have changed the tapping in time to make the 09.30 the first Off-peak train?
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Post by t697 on Apr 13, 2022 17:38:57 GMT
Since the inverted semi-fast pattern does get used in circumstances such as now and during covid and indeed other times, the passenger information 'masters' should have a serious think about getting us to update the station and train information systems to be able to announce those stopping patterns. I suppose the biggest problem is what to call it. Simply reversing the description to "fast-semi" doesn't grasp it clearly enough I feel. Post your suggestions!
Re the pre-recorded station PA at North Harrow, the one on the southbound starts with something like "Starting today ....." even though the special timetable has been in place for several days. Not actually wrong I suppose but a little odd and didn't anyone think for more than a few seconds when doing the script?
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Post by t697 on Apr 13, 2022 17:45:40 GMT
Does this special timetable include 'inverted' semi-fasts? Yes, as posted on page one. It is also worth pointing out that the Amersham and Chesham service runs fast between Harrow and Moor Park. Ah sorry, I hadn't realised that meant the Amersham and Chesham service is all stations when south of Harrow.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 13, 2022 19:55:34 GMT
So how many trains out of the fleet have been stopped for now?
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 13, 2022 20:21:18 GMT
I feel sure that stations south of Harrow (which also benefit from the Uxbridge service) don't really need the Amersham / Chesham trains too.
Also, the Chesham service running fast (even if only north of Harrow) must mean that they are getting a better / faster service than before?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 13, 2022 21:36:54 GMT
So how many trains out of the fleet have been stopped for now? The last I heard was that the entire fleet has been checked and there are currently 31 good trains, the special service requires 28 (the normal service requires 48 Mon-Fri and 35 Sat/Sun). The repair rate looks to be about two a week.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 14, 2022 0:55:55 GMT
So how many trains out of the fleet have been stopped for now? The last I heard was that the entire fleet has been checked and there are currently 31 good trains, the special service requires 28 (the normal service requires 48 Mon-Fri and 35 Sat/Sun). The repair rate looks to be about two a week. So original notice said "The issue is likely to impact service through to May" probably meant that the issue is likely to impact service through __ May!
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Post by A60stock on Apr 14, 2022 9:01:15 GMT
I too cannot understand why the systems cannot be updated to show the reversed semi fast pattern, its simply poor by those who are able to change these things.
Another way to amend this situation is to simply let the fast trains also skip Northwick park and Preston Road. I am sure these stations can do with 8tph
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 14, 2022 9:31:36 GMT
I have just been informed by TFL Twitter that during the ‘special timetable’ the first off peak train from Amersham is now the 10.00 am, as tapping in before 09.30 is a peak fare. Surely they could have changed the tapping in time to make the 09.30 the first Off-peak train? Unless things have changed since my time on stations (1997-2003) you can't change "tapping in time" for individual stations, it would have to be the whole system. Oyster is 1990s technology and to keep costs down it was designed as a "one size fits all" system. Then again that was nearly 20 years ago, my memory might not be working quite as well as it used to
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 14, 2022 9:35:07 GMT
BBC's Tom Edwards on Twitter
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 14, 2022 10:10:03 GMT
I have just been informed by TFL Twitter that during the ‘special timetable’ the first off peak train from Amersham is now the 10.00 am, as tapping in before 09.30 is a peak fare. Surely they could have changed the tapping in time to make the 09.30 the first Off-peak train? Unless things have changed since my time on stations (1997-2003) you can't change "tapping in time" for individual stations, it would have to be the whole system. Oyster is 1990s technology and to keep costs down it was designed as a "one size fits all" system. Then again that was nearly 20 years ago, my memory might not be working quite as well as it used to Oyster does support different peak periods for different journeys, e.g. you are charged peak fare for Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston in the morning only, but the reverse journey has morning and afternoon/evening peaks. I have no idea how this works, and there is no guarantee that it could be used for the Amersham situation. Something that I think might be possible (assuming desire, etc) would be charge the peak fare as normal but automatically refund the difference between peak and off-peak fares for those people who tapped in at Amersham between say 09:20 and 09:30*. AIUI this would have to be done overnight and applied on the next tap in, so occasional travellers might lose out, but it would be better than nothing. *It might have to be dependent on touch-out location if there are any Chiltern trains in that window as I don't think TfL would be allowed to alter the fares for those services without Chiltern's agreement.
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