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Post by jimbo on May 23, 2021 3:52:48 GMT
Response to Freedom of Information request published 8 July 2020 says the 1972 tube stock train stored on the Aldwych branch is driven once or twice every three months between Holborn and Aldwych, and once a year goes to Cockfosters for maintenance. It is not licensed to carry passengers. There is an embryo plan to run the 1938 tube stock on the branch as part of the Museum’s Hidden London programme whilst the 1972 tube stock is away for maintenance. Because of evacuation issues at Aldwych, only a maximum of 25 passengers can be carried on the train. This relies upon track and signalling safety arrangements, a full risk assessment, commercial agreement by TfL Legal, and LU Safety Operations and Emergency Planning agreement to run the train. See: This was once a signalled twice weekly move on and off the branch, but now requires a possession. When did that start? Does anyone know what is now required? Is it padlocked hand-worked points, or more involved? I was wondering if the 1972TS and 1938TS could swap places in one possession, or would it be more involved than that? |
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vincenture
Quiz tryhard, and an advocate for simpler, less complicated rail routes
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Post by vincenture on May 23, 2021 7:52:14 GMT
On a sidenote wouldnt this cease once the Holborn upgrade begins since it will use platform 5?
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Post by frankpick on May 23, 2021 13:48:05 GMT
I think it used to be a bi-weekly movement. As I remember an Acton crew would operate the service and then a Northfields crew did the last couple of trips then empty to Wood Green reverse and empty to Northfields depot.
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Post by miff on May 23, 2021 14:25:03 GMT
On a sidenote wouldnt this cease once the Holborn upgrade begins since it will use platform 5? Yes. The FOI response also confirms the train will be removed if the upgrade goes ahead, and there are no plans for the LT Museum to preserve it. |
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on May 23, 2021 16:29:11 GMT
Certainly from a signalling perspective the points have been secured for through running on the eastbound and very minimal maintenance has taken place since the line closed in 1994. Most of the track circuit fuses on the branch are removed and the signalling is regarded to be out of commission, though not formally decommissioned. When a train is to be brought on or off the branch the points need to be manually operated on the ground.
If the LTM were to run a train on the branch in passenger service the signalling will need to be retested and formally recommissioned beforehand - once or twice every three months is outside the required frequency for 'rusty rail' moves, even in tunnel sections.
I had to commission some alterations to the signalling at Holborn in late 2019 and could only clear PD6 (the signal off the branch) to undertake the testing after making an irregular wiring connection. It cannot clear under normal circumstances even if the points were in commission.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on May 23, 2021 17:00:24 GMT
As I recall when the branch was in operation it was controlled from Earls Court control room from desk 3a, the only controlled signals were at the Holborn end , the other signals were automatic.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on May 23, 2021 19:27:49 GMT
Certainly from a signalling perspective the points have been secured for through running on the eastbound and very minimal maintenance has taken place since the line closed in 1994. Most of the track circuit fuses on the branch are removed and the signalling is regarded to be out of commission, though not formally decommissioned. When a train is to be brought on or off the branch the points need to be manually operated on the ground. If the LTM were to run a train on the branch in passenger service the signalling will need to be retested and formally recommissioned beforehand - once or twice every three months is outside the required frequency for 'rusty rail' moves, even in tunnel sections. I had to commission some alterations to the signalling at Holborn in late 2019 and could only clear PD6 (the signal off the branch) to undertake the testing after making an irregular wiring connection. It cannot clear under normal circumstances even if the points were in commission. Do we think it could be considered acceptable to run the 38 stock under single line working - train locked in operating rules? There would still have to be some consideration given to terminal protection of course, and the points layout at Holborn looks rather dubious if being designed as a layout today, given the presence of the trap points quite close to the stopping position. Personally I’d be more interested in a ride on the 72 stock! The 1956-73 stock era isn’t too well represented in preservation, especially since the Cravens HT unit hasn’t been out and about for quite a few years. I know the museum likes to showcase the 38 stock, but for a significant generation of people the likes of unrefurbished 72 stock represents what would be to them one of two traditional Tube train interiors (the other being 59/62 stock). |
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Post by jimbo on May 23, 2021 20:45:09 GMT
On a sidenote wouldnt this cease once the Holborn upgrade begins since it will use platform 5? In preparation for the works there was a plan to remove the 1972TS and lift the Holborn points a year or two back, only averted by a delay to the scheme. With current finance problems and lower demand, could be five years away again. The planned eastern ticket hall also provides a new substation to meet demand of new trains on the Picc and Central lines, so their performance will be restricted without it. |
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on May 23, 2021 22:22:34 GMT
After we commissioned the last set of mods there the engineer who approved the design opined that with hindsight it would have been simpler to just plain line the points. I dare say a few other interested parties would have made such a suggestion much harder to implement though!
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Post by jimbo on May 24, 2021 2:14:54 GMT
The FoI points out that the 1972TS is not licensed to carry passengers. Does that mean no actors ride it during filming, or is that classified as something else?
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on May 24, 2021 19:28:08 GMT
Actors are not classed as fare-paying passengers. Filming is carried out under possession with special rules in operation.
If anyone has seen the Dempsey and Makepeace edition where a Waterloo & City train was "blown up" circa 1982, I was the driver on that train. The line was operational fo a Sunday for filming, with one train static at Bank Station on the "down" line, with the "up" line run as a single line with one train in operation. Trip cocks were isolated and the train was run back and forth for filming. The job started at about 0700 and finished at about 2200!
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Post by fish7373 on May 25, 2021 22:26:34 GMT
Response to Freedom of Information request published 8 July 2020 says the 1972 tube stock train stored on the Aldwych branch is driven once or twice every three months between Holborn and Aldwych, and once a year goes to Cockfosters for maintenance. It is not licensed to carry passengers. There is an embryo plan to run the 1938 tube stock on the branch as part of the Museum’s Hidden London programme whilst the 1972 tube stock is away for maintenance. Because of evacuation issues at Aldwych, only a maximum of 25 passengers can be carried on the train. This relies upon track and signalling safety arrangements, a full risk assessment, commercial agreement by TfL Legal, and LU Safety Operations and Emergency Planning agreement to run the train. See: This was once a signalled weekly move on and off the branch, but now requires a possession. When did that start? Does anyone know what is now required? Is it padlocked hand-worked points, or more involved? I was wondering if the 1972TS and 1938TS could swap places in one possession, or would it be more involved than that? Hi the 72 never went to Cockfoster depot for maintenance came to Northfields depot And the plan now is to scrap it and the AIT is going plus the two bombed cars the start of the new build of the Northfields Depot work is starting. |
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Post by rheostar on May 26, 2021 7:19:47 GMT
...And the plan now is to scrap it and the AIT is going plus the two bombed cars the start of the new build of the Northfields Depot work is starting. Duuno why, but I thought the bombed units had been scrapped ages ago. Where in the yard have they been kept? |
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Post by jimbo on May 26, 2021 7:23:41 GMT
Up above, I think it was said that we've had enough chance to ride on the 1938TS. How about a ride on an original condition 1972TS? It is not licensed for passengers, but apparently actors can take a ride for film making. So couldn't the Museum propose a film about a ride on the train with enthusiasts giving their insights? I'm sure they would get plenty of bids from those wanting to become involved! Would people paying for a branch tour and ride be classified as passengers if actors are not? They are not travelling to a destination, just back to their starting point, so is that a journey?
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Post by jimbo on May 27, 2021 2:04:48 GMT
MAC Horne's online listing of LU cabins and interlockings does not give a closure date for Holborn Aldwych branch IMR. In fact, reports that control was moved from Earl's Court to South Kensington. Was this true?
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on May 27, 2021 13:43:13 GMT
Yes, it is. The IMR is still commissioned and was recontrolled by South Kensington.
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metman
Global Moderator
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Post by metman on May 27, 2021 17:49:27 GMT
It would be very sad if the 1972 stock unit was scrapped as it is a lost generation of stock really.
There are no operational unpainted trains left (even this has horrible red fronts).
I think in years to come it will be rued that it isn’t saved. I wonder what it would take to get it allowed to carry passengers?
If I’m honest though, I can’t see anymore LU trains being preserved in the future as they won’t be compatible with signalling systems and there is no space to store them.
Is there any change in the plan to remove points yet?
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Post by t697 on May 27, 2021 18:22:28 GMT
If I’m honest though, I can’t see anymore LU trains being preserved in the future as they won’t be compatible with signalling systems and there is no space to store them. The older ones would need mods to be compatible with the higher supply voltage on SSR and planned for the Picc and presumably other line upgrades as they come along. The Tube is gradually becoming a 750V supplied railway with new trains regen braking up to 900V or 1000V.
Tech wise,the 1972TS is a pretty horrible device anyway. Of course sometimes that's a reason why people like them...
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Post by Chris L on May 27, 2021 19:31:40 GMT
It would be very sad if the 1972 stock unit was scrapped as it is a lost generation of stock really. There are no operational unpainted trains left (even this has horrible red fronts). I think in years to come it will be rued that it isn’t saved. I wonder what it would take to get it allowed to carry passengers? If I’m honest though, I can’t see anymore LU trains being preserved in the future as they won’t be compatible with signalling systems and there is no space to store them. Is there any change in the plan to remove points yet? TfL has inherited the duty to preserve vehicles that are of importance. This does extend to a whole train or to be able to run. |
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Post by jimbo on May 27, 2021 19:55:32 GMT
metman: Planned 33tph+ on Picc & Central with new trains requires expanded station, and new sub-station for power supplies. Currently funded 27tph on Picc, and CLIP upgrade on Central will not. Expanded station using current disused Aldwych branch platform, with track removed, must save plenty on excavation costs so will be part of project when it comes to fruition for sure.
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Post by quex on May 28, 2021 8:53:25 GMT
I wonder what it would take to get it allowed to carry passengers? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "rather a lot". Remember the reason the rest of the fleet were refurbished was for fire safety, so I'd imagine the same stringent (or even more stringent) regs would apply if you're carrying fare-paying "passengers". |
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metman
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Post by metman on May 28, 2021 16:54:25 GMT
Seems like that’s the case these days!
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Post by spsmiler on May 28, 2021 20:03:01 GMT
But why run it through tube tunnels?
I favour a 'do nothing' policy for a while yet, as maybe it could be converted to battery operation and used on a living museum railway / not on LU metals.
Right now the pandemic is affecting everything, including finances, but maybe in a few years time the financial outlook will have improved.
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Post by jimbo on May 28, 2021 20:47:33 GMT
Yes, it is. The IMR is still commissioned and was recontrolled by South Kensington. If there is no longer a powered point, must always run automatically. What is the procedure to move the shuttle train in and out? Take area out of automatic working and release lock on ground frame? |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on May 28, 2021 23:19:08 GMT
Yes, it is. The IMR is still commissioned and was recontrolled by South Kensington. If there is no longer a powered point, must always run automatically. What is the procedure to move the shuttle train in and out? Take area out of automatic working and release lock on ground frame? No ground frame at Holborn. |
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Post by Chris L on May 29, 2021 4:42:56 GMT
But why run it through tube tunnels? I favour a 'do nothing' policy for a while yet, as maybe it could be converted to battery operation and used on a living museum railway / not on LU metals. Right now the pandemic is affecting everything, including finances, but maybe in a few years time the financial outlook will have improved. Finances are hardly likely to improve. The Jubilee line stub into Charing Cross provides an alternative filming option which is much easier to use. |
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Tom
Administrator
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Post by Tom on May 29, 2021 20:14:27 GMT
If there is no longer a powered point, must always run automatically. What is the procedure to move the shuttle train in and out? Take area out of automatic working and release lock on ground frame? It's a powered point with the reverse fuses removed, clipped and scotched. When a train is to be moved on to the branch the points are moved using the valves. |
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Post by rheostar on May 30, 2021 8:21:03 GMT
I wonder what it would take to get it allowed to carry passengers? I have a horrible feeling the answer is "rather a lot". Remember the reason the rest of the fleet were refurbished was for fire safety, so I'd imagine the same stringent (or even more stringent) regs would apply if you're carrying fare-paying "passengers". The last time I was on the train (about four years ago now) it was in a pretty poor condition, so the estimate of 'rather a lot' is probably an understatement! |
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Post by joshua on Mar 13, 2022 20:13:15 GMT
Does any one have a rough map for what they are doing at Holborn?
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Post by jimbo on Mar 14, 2022 4:01:18 GMT
I imagine the recent removal of the train from the branch was an economy measure to cut maintenance and training costs for the train and movements to and from depot. Long term the Holborn reconstruction is still planned to meet future growing demand, and service enhancements on both lines will require a new substation and ticket hall under Procter Street when funds permit. Step-free access and additional escalators will make use of the Aldwych branch platform with track area covered. This substantial space will inevitably be included in the reconstruction to reduce construction costs. I presume that Aldwych station remains available for filming purposes if required, but any train movements will be achieved with computer-graphics. (2017 consultation here) |
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