|
Post by Chris L on May 12, 2023 5:49:50 GMT
When walking around Waterloo station yesterday I entered The Sidings retail area. There is a lift from the main concourse and a link to the Underground station.
A bit of a roundabout route but it gives level access to the ramps for the Waterloo & City line departure platform. These are, of course, very steep.
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on May 12, 2023 19:14:44 GMT
Can someone retitle this thread?. The initial question was about whether some works were cancelled but since this thread has evolved into general announcements and comments on step-free access across the TfL network
Mod comment [goldenarrow]: Done
|
|
trainwizard
On a quest to find the magic money tree
Posts: 139
|
Post by trainwizard on May 12, 2023 19:37:47 GMT
I agree with melikepie. Also, I'm not sure if this counts, but the lifts at Holloway Road are being replaced one at a time ( ianvisits). I'm aware that despite having lifts, the station isn't step free due to a final staircase from the lifts down to the platforms. Is there any possibility for step-free access at Holloway Road, especially with new lifts?
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,758
|
Post by Chris M on May 12, 2023 21:00:40 GMT
There is no prospect of step-free access coming with these works, as they are just replacing life expired lifts with new equivalents. The Axonometric diagram available on ianvisits' website shows the lift shafts come down on the opposite side of the westbound (I think) tunnel to the platforms (which are between the running tunnels) so it would require a second lift shaft. The diagram suggests that the obvious place for this would be opposite the top of the stairs to the platform, but this would still require excavating a new shaft and cross-passage which would not be a small job even if there isn't anything in the way (the diagram does not show all non-public areas). The current strategy for step-free access is to prioritise areas of London that do not have accessible stations, but this is available at Caledonian Road (one stop south) and Finsbury Park (two stops north), both of which have (iirc) good bus links to Holloway Road, so I suspect it isn't a priority station. My guess would be that, absent new third-party funding, the next station in this area to get step-free access would be the Victoria line at Highbury & Islington even though that would be a bigger job.
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,913
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on May 12, 2023 21:09:05 GMT
Was once a plan to reopen the old ticket hall at Highbury to use the remaining lift shafts. I find it was the 2002 LU publication 'Unlocking London for All' that noted that at Waterloo and Highbury the disused lift shafts are to be re-equipped. Neither project has progressed. Of course, further lifts would need to descend to the platforms at Highbury, and no contribution was received for step-free access to the National Rail platforms at Moorgate in connection with works for the Elizabeth Line. Plan on track in 2017
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 11, 2023 14:41:32 GMT
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Feb 20, 2024 13:47:17 GMT
|
|
gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 201
|
Post by gefw on Feb 20, 2024 16:07:21 GMT
Great that more funding is now available (is it true that is costs circa £10M per station to modify + £150k/yr ongoing costs). Like North Acton & West Hampstead, I hope at Northolt opportunity can also be taken to economically make other improvements for the majority of passengers (ie the congestion on the stairs to the platform + at the station entrance/pavement area
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,758
|
Post by Chris M on Feb 20, 2024 23:59:50 GMT
Assuming the design of step-free access is similar to that which was originally planned (illustrated in Ianvisits' article) then this will help congestion on the stairs slightly as some people (especially some of those who are likely to be slower) will take the left instead of stairs increasing their capacity a bit. Adding a second set of stairs to the new footbridge would help even more, but I'm struggling to see how this could be done easily/cheaply. I am not familiar enough with the station to know where the bottleneck is, but I'd be surprised if the scope of the works was greater than rearranging the layout of the ticket hall interior (e.g. number and position of gates). I can't see any obvious way to increase the capacity of the pavement outside without significant changes to the road, which will definitely not be part of this project - especially as this isn't a TfL road so the project would need (at minimum) significant involvement from Ealing council. Thinking long term, the best way to improve capacity would probably be to do something like North Ealing and build a new station building at 90° to the current one to the side of the railway. This would not come cheap, obviously, but I have no idea what value for money calculations would look like.
|
|
gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 201
|
Post by gefw on Feb 26, 2024 18:07:49 GMT
Assuming the design of step-free access is similar to that which was originally planned (illustrated in Ianvisits' article) then this will help congestion on the stairs slightly as some people (especially some of those who are likely to be slower) will take the left instead of stairs increasing their capacity a bit. Adding a second set of stairs to the new footbridge would help even more, but I'm struggling to see how this could be done easily/cheaply. I am not familiar enough with the station to know where the bottleneck is, but I'd be surprised if the scope of the works was greater than rearranging the layout of the ticket hall interior (e.g. number and position of gates). I can't see any obvious way to increase the capacity of the pavement outside without significant changes to the road, which will definitely not be part of this project - especially as this isn't a TfL road so the project would need (at minimum) significant involvement from Ealing council. Thinking long term, the best way to improve capacity would probably be to do something like North Ealing and build a new station building at 90° to the current one to the side of the railway. This would not come cheap, obviously, but I have no idea what value for money calculations would look like. Also hope the new scheme for Northolt retains the existing Public toilet facilities
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Mar 5, 2024 19:07:33 GMT
Great that more funding is now available (is it true that is costs circa £10M per station to modify + £150k/yr ongoing costs). Like North Acton & West Hampstead, I hope at Northolt opportunity can also be taken to economically make other improvements for the majority of passengers (ie the congestion on the stairs to the platform + at the station entrance/pavement area re: West Hampstead Overground station relocating the platform entry point from 'as close as possible to the street entrance' to the middle of the train is a pain in the neck for the number of times I've missed a train that I would have caught had this not been done. It also encourages running, which is especially risky on the stairs. Not installing proper 'weather protection' platform shelters means that when its raining passengers wait on the stairs. This is very sub-optimal! Building a station that does not have a staffed ticket office means that the old station building is still being used by the railway. Its a shame that since there is a member of staff present at all times the ticket office is open, the gateline could not also be reinstated - and steps down to the platform on the right (ie: the side that does not have the new station building). On the topic of using making stations accessible as a reason to also increase capacity to benefit everyone else, I fear for Leyton. I think the same mistakes will be made here, although one slight difference is that this station still retains platform shelters. Instead a different mistake will be made at Leyton - until the building of the A12 road this station had a second entrance at the Leytonstone end of the platforms. The planned new works do not seem to include reinstating this facility. I have to wonder, if it were to be reinstated would it reduce the pressure on the existing station building to such a degree that it no longer needs replacing? Or maybe the planned new passageway alongside the outside of the platforms could be modified to include an access to the east? This would still be better than doing nothing for the people who live on the eastern side of the station
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,913
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Mar 6, 2024 0:12:22 GMT
Visuals of the Leyton proposals released in FoI reply here.
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Mar 7, 2024 21:10:11 GMT
Thanks for the link. This looks to be where the platform access will be located (filmed on the westbound platform, my camera is pointing towards Leytonstone) The glass brick passageways remind me of West Ham. Other aspects of the works remind me of Newbury Park and West Hampstead North London Line stations. At Ilford they kept the gateline where it was - but just made it much wider.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,758
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 8, 2024 2:55:43 GMT
Regarding the gateline. I suspect that the gateline at Leyton is as wide as it can be in its present location and that it's in the optimum location within the present building. Indeed short of demolishing the existing building I don't see that there is much that can be done beyond what is proposed and I don't see how you could demolish the entrance without an extended closure of the station.
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Mar 8, 2024 11:46:42 GMT
Ilford used a temporary entrance and completely rebuilt the station building.
West Hampstead cut down trees to clear a vacant space and built a new station building next to the existing building, which was meant to be closed afterwards. Leyton will be doing the same except that the new construction will be where the station house was before the A12 road was built.
|
|
gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 201
|
Post by gefw on Mar 11, 2024 17:05:09 GMT
I think the info in the FOI is many years old and very "outline". According to the investment committee report I believe Tfl is in the final stages of a specific government funding application for Leyton station & I would have hoped this gave much more details of the objectives of the schemes (covering typical passenger & staff orientated features) and associated schematics. As has become apparent from last 2 posts it seems quite unclear whether this is an "add on" to existing station (which would be a staffing and running cost nightmare) or replacement ticket hall & passenger route. One hopes the Supervisors office/ops room is being located to be more customer facing (used to be hidden away on WB plat). Also to include other passenger facilities/amenities ? (bikes, toilets, passenger info points etc)
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,758
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 11, 2024 19:53:25 GMT
There is a large, secure cycle parking facility about a minute's walk from the current entrance so I don't expect to see significant additional provision for cycling as part of this development.
|
|
|
Post by imran on Mar 23, 2024 11:32:29 GMT
|
|
|
Post by imran on Apr 1, 2024 11:52:30 GMT
Was once a plan to reopen the old ticket hall at Highbury to use the remaining lift shafts. I find it was the 2002 LU publication 'Unlocking London for All' that noted that at Waterloo and Highbury the disused lift shafts are to be re-equipped. Neither project has progressed. Of course, further lifts would need to descend to the platforms at Highbury, and no contribution was received for step-free access to the National Rail platforms at Moorgate in connection with works for the Elizabeth Line. Plan on track in 2017 Just had a read of the report of the report and I found it quite interesting: I think Waterloo & Highbury & Islington definitely should become fully step-free by re-equipping the disused lift shafts. It would help with growing capacity. I wonder if there are any other stations with disused lift shafts that can be put back into service. I’m intrigued to know how the likes of Archway, Clapham South, East Putney, Ladbroke Grove, Stockwell & Wood Green would have got step-free access. Maybe Liverpool Street can be become step-free during the rebuild of the Mainline station? Roding Valley is technically step-free, so don’t know what improvements they were planning there. And how on earth would they have made Kennington & Queensway become step-free given that lifts are the only way down to the platforms? Maybe install escalators?
|
|
|
Post by xtmw on Apr 1, 2024 12:06:44 GMT
If you look on a tube map there are two different types of step free access:
Step free-access from street to train Step free-access from street to platform
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on Apr 1, 2024 12:11:20 GMT
For Ladbroke Gro, it looks like there are disused spaces across the street both sides of the railway. Maybe build walkways alongside the railway bridge and step-free lifts on the other side of the street or is that too impractical?
|
|
|
Post by imran on Apr 1, 2024 12:12:10 GMT
If you look on a tube map there are two different types of step free access: Step free-access from street to train Step free-access from street to platform I know that. I’m just curious on how some of the stations listed in that report would have become step-free.
|
|
|
Post by starlight73 on Apr 1, 2024 15:56:24 GMT
And how on earth would they have made Kennington & Queensway become step-free given that lifts are the only way down to the platforms? Maybe install escalators? I know that at Knightsbridge, a second lift has been built from the lower lift landing to the platforms (not open to the public until later this year). So I guess it would have been similar for Queensway. Kennington would presumably need two such lifts which could have been added to the walkways over the platforms Probably obvious once I say it, but escalators don’t count as step-free access, as you can’t fit a wheelchair on one. Incidentally South Kensington Piccadilly line may be the same as Waterloo, with empty(?) lift shafts that once provided step-free access, but while the Circle & District platforms will get step-free access, the Piccadilly won’t (yet). For Ladbroke Gro, it looks like there are disused spaces across the street both sides of the railway. Maybe build walkways alongside the railway bridge and step-free lifts on the other side of the street or is that too impractical? That’s a very interesting thought. I would’ve thought they would try to attach the lift to the existing station building if possible, otherwise it means a second gate line and more staff needed. (E.g. the set up at Gospel Oak; the lifts are separate at platform level but come out into the ticket hall)
|
|
|
Post by imran on Apr 1, 2024 16:41:06 GMT
I think Shepherd’s Bush on the Central Line has one too!
|
|
|
Post by starlight73 on Apr 1, 2024 18:51:59 GMT
Shepherd’s Bush Central line does have a lift shaft to an intermediate level indeed Work to make the staton step-free was begun but was paused around 2009 because of substantial costs. This was due to ‘ground conditions’, utilities in unexpected places, the 2008 financial crash, and the absorption of Metronet (source: London Assembly) So frustrating, but it will be good if White City gets step-free access! I wish there was more step-free access (it would make more stations accessible to me) but money is such a constraint. Since there’s already step-free access to Wood Lane and Shepherd’s Bush overground, plus lots of buses, I can see why Shepherd’s Bush central line didn’t get it. (apologies if this is too much info for this thread!)
|
|
|
Post by starlight73 on Apr 1, 2024 20:06:09 GMT
is it true that is costs circa £10M per station to modify + £150k/yr ongoing costs) replying to gefw ’s earlier question: it’s often more than £10m to modify a station! I spent time compiling the table below, but then found this answer from Mayor’s Question Time. It can cost £10m-£100m to make a station step-free. in 2018, TfL expected an average of £6.3m to make this list of stations step-free, a small number of which still aren’t step-free. The costs would vary greatly depending on the station (e.g. South Woodford vs Knightsbridge!) If anyone is interested, here are some example costs (let me know if any are wrong). Edit: note that these costs are often wrapped up with larger upgrades, e.g. new station buildings and platform upgrades. It’s not possible to disentangle these costs and TfL do not publish cost breakdowns Station | Cost | Source | Notes | Colindale | £29.5m + £22m + £5m? | ianVisits 1 and 2 | (Government, developers, and possibly TfL respectively) New station building. Not sure of cost | Leyton | £20m | ianVisits | | Waterloo | £45m | ianVisits | Estimated cost - not happening soon | Shepherd’s Bush | £39m | London Assembly | £39m spent before step-free project put on hold
| South Woodford | £4m | TfL FOI | Cost of ramp to one platform plus other station works (other platform already step-free) |
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Apr 2, 2024 6:41:47 GMT
It should be remembered that the original lifts didn't reach platform level.
The layout had stairs to/from the platforms.
Updating to create step free access is not a simple process.
|
|
|
Post by imran on Apr 5, 2024 12:10:46 GMT
Thanks for giving me an insight on the cost of some Step-Free projects! The cost really depends on how much work is needed.
Anyway, what are you guys thoughts on the proposed upgrade of North Acton Station to give it step-free access? Link to the article in one of my previous posts if you’re curious!
|
|
|
Post by starlight73 on Apr 5, 2024 15:54:07 GMT
I think it’ll be great to see North Acton become step-free. The central line has a huge step-free gap between Bond Street and Ealing Broadway/Greenford. Plus it’s also where the Central line splits and some trains terminate Sad to see the original station building go (looks like an original GWR building?) but that is necessary sometimes. Incidentally, I note that North Acton seems to be replacing Hanger Lane in terms of step-free work. Hanger Lane & Park Royal were originally on the step-free upgrades list here. As of 2020, jimbo wrote they will now only be progressed with 3rd party funding. The benefits of upgrading those two would be: 1. Providing a step-free interchange between Central and Piccadilly lines (but via a long, very busy road - not nice!) 2. Serving an area without step-free stations between Ealing Broadway and Sudbury Town However, Ian’s article above implies there is overcrowding at North Acton, a big safety issue that will only get worse with time. So it makes sense that it needs an upgrade
|
|
|
Post by imran on Apr 5, 2024 17:37:02 GMT
I admit that I like the current North Acton Station building as well, but it’s very small and suffers from overcrowding at times. So I do believe the proposed upgrade is necessary.
Judging from what work needs to be done though (like Platform 1 potentially needing to widen) it seems likely that a temporary closure of the station for a few months would be needed. I wonder what would happen to trains that would normally terminate at North Acton then?
|
|