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Post by North End on Jul 21, 2020 17:25:52 GMT
Doubtful because the cars are longer. It's not beyond the realms of possibility. Empty trains of 1983 stock certainly ran on the Bakerloo for testing purposes in the 1980s, and they were formed of six 'long' cars similar to the 1973 stock. I'm sure one of our resident rolling stock experts such as t697 or 100andthirty would have a better idea. One wonders how easy it might be to certify the 73 stock for Network Rail running, bearing in mind the current trains run to the standards of the time? Does the track recording train ever run over the Network Rail section to reach Stonebridge Park?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 21, 2020 21:19:27 GMT
The first 1983 tube stock did underscoring on the Bakerloo to check the gauge. This was to ensure clearances for the diversionary route to Elephant and Castle. I don't recall whether the train went to Queens Park though. I've certainly seen a photo of them in J. Graeme Bruce's 1988 book in Queens Park south shed (next to 1959 stock) and I'm 99% sure I've seen others showing them in Queen's Park Platforms. After some quick googling I managed to find these, which suggest they got as far as Stonebridge Park:
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Post by Chris W on Jul 21, 2020 23:26:31 GMT
After some quick googling I managed to find these, which suggest they got as far as Stonebridge Park: What's going on with the Cl.31 and guard's van to the top right..??
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Post by jimbo on Jul 22, 2020 1:21:33 GMT
It's not beyond the realms of possibility. Empty trains of 1983 stock certainly ran on the Bakerloo for testing purposes in the 1980s, and they were formed of six 'long' cars similar to the 1973 stock. I'm sure one of our resident rolling stock experts such as t697 or 100andthirty would have a better idea. One wonders how easy it might be to certify the 73 stock for Network Rail running, bearing in mind the current trains run to the standards of the time? Does the track recording train ever run over the Network Rail section to reach Stonebridge Park? From “Permitted running routes for engineer’s trains and heritage trains” dated 19 November 2012, on the Bakerloo Line the Track Recording Train can operate north of Queens Park in transit only to Stonebridge Park Depot, with diversion available to Kilburn High Road. It can operate throughout the LU part of the line except for No.1 road at London Road depot, the first road on the left. A change to 1973 stock on the Bakerloo would increase overhang on curves, probably requiring some minor tunnel adjustments to maintain current speeds, and bigger gaps at curved platforms. Staff retraining, stores holdings, etc would cost to obtain trains only a couple of years younger. But the Piccadilly trains were the first electronic generation and are probably more costly to maintain into the future. The current Bakerloo trains are the last of the old solid, reliable design which are probably easier to maintain into the long term until a case for new trains can be made. They don't go far between failures, but are not scheduled to go far daily in any case so their weekly failure rate is acceptable and their total mileage covered is probably lower than the Picc trains.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jul 22, 2020 6:24:37 GMT
The Track Recorder can and does run to Harrow & Wealdstone. The most recent version of that same publication (2018, I believe internal only) corroborates this.
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Post by jimbo on Aug 5, 2020 2:57:06 GMT
The story so far: In June 2018 TfL revealed that Siemens would supply up to 250 new trains for four lines tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/june/siemens-mobility-limited-to-be-awarded-tfl-contract-to-design-and-manufacture-a-new-generation-of-tube-trainsUpdate: Doors order now placed for up to 310 new trains for four lines www.railwaygazette.com/vehicles/doors-ordered-for-london-undergrounds-new-piccadilly-line-trains/57088.articleWhere are these extra 60 trains intended for? Initial 3,760 door drives covers 94x9 car trains with 2 doorways per car x two sides plus four cab doors. Then 9,000+ extra door drives covers, from initial 250 train: Bakerloo 40x9 car trains = 1,600; W&C 10x5 car trains = 240; Central 100x11 car trains = 4,800: Total 6,640. Leaves 2,400+ doors = 60x9 car trains, but no extra lines mentioned! I know Picc & Central may get a few more for up to 36tph, and W&C only 6 trains, not original 10 rough figure. Is this the Lewisham/Hayes extension fleet! Where will they be stabled? Not mentioned in consultations to date.
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Post by holborncentral on Aug 5, 2020 15:22:34 GMT
I'm looking forward to seeing what the new trains will be like and what design they go along with. I hope they use the design from the 2014 concept video. It had that 'classic' LU design but more modern. Will the new Piccadilly line trains have luggage space for people going to/from Heathrow?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 9, 2020 22:22:44 GMT
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Post by jimbo on Aug 10, 2020 0:18:07 GMT
Looks like a small site for a depot! Maybe a few sidings, but 60 trains? Perhaps there is more space by the Hayes line, or else up in north-west again? The previous consultation to Lewisham only proposed storing 9 trains at terminus within long overrun tunnels. The last consultation proposed sub-surface stabling at Wearside, a proposed line construction site, perhaps like White City Central line. It's a triangular site with the point to the south; best use would have the shunting neck at the Hayes end of the site, so unlikely to be used without access to the Hayes line.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 10, 2020 12:26:21 GMT
It doesn't need to store the whole fleet, just that part of it that cannot be accommodated at London Road and Stonebridge Park. I know London Road is tight for space, but I've got no idea about Stonebridge Park.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 10, 2020 13:07:53 GMT
It doesn't need to store the whole fleet, just that part of it that cannot be accommodated at London Road and Stonebridge Park. I know London Road is tight for space, but I've got no idea about Stonebridge Park. But these 60 are in addition to known requirements, which includes 40 for the Bakerloo
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Post by Chris M on Aug 10, 2020 16:31:19 GMT
60 trains is far too many for the Hayes extension. Assuming Lewisham is operational by the time it is built, I'd be surprised if as many as 10 additional trains would be required - there is no suggestion that more than one depot between Elephant and Castle and Hayes would be required. The current timetable only requires 31 trains for peak service (the 2012 service required 33) so 60 for the extension is madness. Either there is an error in the press release, in the maths or these 60 trains are not destined for the Bakerloo line.
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Post by jimbo on Aug 11, 2020 7:55:17 GMT
The original plan for 250 trains provided 100 for the Piccadilly and Central lines and 40 for the Bakerloo. Someone must have thought a Hayes extension will make the Bakerloo a full length line, also deserving 100 new trains. These are obviously rough numbers, but the former lines will receive around 100 trains each. The Piccadilly order is for 94 trains for 30tph under new signalling, but could extend to 109 trains for 36tph. I believe the Central line plan is similar in size. The Bakerloo will have up to 100 trains rather than around 100 trains, since the largest fleet I can calculate is some 90 trains.
The current Bakerloo was promised around 40 trains, and the previous consultation for a line to Lewisham said only 9 more trains, so around 50 in total for 27tph. The last consultation gave no train numbers to Hayes, but I estimate 60 for 27tph, and eventually 70 for 30tph, which is the highest frequency mentioned. If 40 can stable on the existing line, that requires 30 more stabled on the extension. If they ever consider 33tph or even 36tph, that may require some running to Watford to provide sufficient reversing capacity, which gave me 90 trains. I presume Stonebridge Park could be modified to maintain the new fleet, given the much reduced maintenance requirements of modern trains.
Wearside Road council site looks to me suitable to hold about 17 full length roads entered from the Hayes end, with two becoming the through roads, and a central reversing road for short workings. Earlier consultations mentioned reversing at Catford Bridge, but not recently, and I wonder if these sidings might be used instead. (Some distance from Lewisham station, but then so is Westbourne Park from Paddington Deep Level!) The current Network Rail connections to the Hayes branch might be retained for engineering trains, and could stable another 6 or 8 trains. That totals a maximum 23 trains, leaving another 7 to stay elsewhere. Is West Wickham former goods yard a possibility?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 11, 2020 9:17:42 GMT
... Someone must have thought a Hayes extension will make the Bakerloo a full length line ... I'm intrigued by this classification. Is it an 'official' LU designation, or just a way of saying it's one of the shorter lines?
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Post by A60stock on Aug 11, 2020 10:56:45 GMT
I think by full length line, what is meant is that the bakerloo line lacks a proper opposite side (in this case south east) to its north west counterpart in harrow, not that it isnt already isn't a full length line. Every other deep level line runs from one side to the other, even if it only stretches as far as zone 3 on one of those sides (bar the W&C). I too have also felt the bakerloo was only 3/4 of a full line and terminated too short on the southern side!
I know the Victoria line doesn't really stretch anywhere far on either side, but thats got an entirely different purpose in that its supposed to be get from one side of zone 1/2 to the other side as quickly as possible, as opposed to having a more commuter line purpose from more further afield.
A Bakerloo line from Watford Junction (or Harrow) to Hayes/Lewisham, now thats a proper full length line!
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Post by piccboy on Aug 11, 2020 11:20:17 GMT
The story so far: In June 2018 TfL revealed that Siemens would supply up to 250 new trains for four lines tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/june/siemens-mobility-limited-to-be-awarded-tfl-contract-to-design-and-manufacture-a-new-generation-of-tube-trainsUpdate: Doors order now placed for up to 310 new trains for four lines www.railwaygazette.com/vehicles/doors-ordered-for-london-undergrounds-new-piccadilly-line-trains/57088.articleWhere are these extra 60 trains intended for? Initial 3,760 door drives covers 94x9 car trains with 2 doorways per car x two sides plus four cab doors. Then 9,000+ extra door drives covers, from initial 250 train: Bakerloo 40x9 car trains = 1,600; W&C 10x5 car trains = 240; Central 100x11 car trains = 4,800: Total 6,640. Leaves 2,400+ doors = 60x9 car trains, but no extra lines mentioned! I know Picc & Central may get a few more for up to 36tph, and W&C only 6 trains, not original 10 rough figure. Is this the Lewisham/Hayes extension fleet! Where will they be stabled? Not mentioned in consultations to date. Could some of these extra door parts be spares?
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Post by underover on Aug 11, 2020 16:16:31 GMT
It's not beyond the realms of possibility. Empty trains of 1983 stock certainly ran on the Bakerloo for testing purposes in the 1980s, and they were formed of six 'long' cars similar to the 1973 stock. I'm sure one of our resident rolling stock experts such as t697 or 100andthirty would have a better idea. One wonders how easy it might be to certify the 73 stock for Network Rail running, bearing in mind the current trains run to the standards of the time? Does the track recording train ever run over the Network Rail section to reach Stonebridge Park? The recording car of the TRV (so the one 73TS car) is actually certified for Network Rail running I believe. At least going by the information sticker on the end of the recording car. Also one of the reasons its formed with Buckeye couplers and train/main line hoses on the ends.
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Post by underover on Aug 11, 2020 16:20:37 GMT
The story so far: In June 2018 TfL revealed that Siemens would supply up to 250 new trains for four lines tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/june/siemens-mobility-limited-to-be-awarded-tfl-contract-to-design-and-manufacture-a-new-generation-of-tube-trainsUpdate: Doors order now placed for up to 310 new trains for four lines www.railwaygazette.com/vehicles/doors-ordered-for-london-undergrounds-new-piccadilly-line-trains/57088.articleWhere are these extra 60 trains intended for? Initial 3,760 door drives covers 94x9 car trains with 2 doorways per car x two sides plus four cab doors. Then 9,000+ extra door drives covers, from initial 250 train: Bakerloo 40x9 car trains = 1,600; W&C 10x5 car trains = 240; Central 100x11 car trains = 4,800: Total 6,640. Leaves 2,400+ doors = 60x9 car trains, but no extra lines mentioned! I know Picc & Central may get a few more for up to 36tph, and W&C only 6 trains, not original 10 rough figure. Is this the Lewisham/Hayes extension fleet! Where will they be stabled? Not mentioned in consultations to date. Could some of these extra door parts be spares? I would hope so XD
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Post by jimbo on Aug 11, 2020 21:13:28 GMT
The story so far: In June 2018 TfL revealed that Siemens would supply up to 250 new trains for four lines tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/june/siemens-mobility-limited-to-be-awarded-tfl-contract-to-design-and-manufacture-a-new-generation-of-tube-trainsUpdate: Doors order now placed for up to 310 new trains for four lines www.railwaygazette.com/vehicles/doors-ordered-for-london-undergrounds-new-piccadilly-line-trains/57088.articleWhere are these extra 60 trains intended for? Initial 3,760 door drives covers 94x9 car trains with 2 doorways per car x two sides plus four cab doors. Then 9,000+ extra door drives covers, from initial 250 train: Bakerloo 40x9 car trains = 1,600; W&C 10x5 car trains = 240; Central 100x11 car trains = 4,800: Total 6,640. Leaves 2,400+ doors = 60x9 car trains, but no extra lines mentioned! I know Picc & Central may get a few more for up to 36tph, and W&C only 6 trains, not original 10 rough figure. Is this the Lewisham/Hayes extension fleet! Where will they be stabled? Not mentioned in consultations to date. Could some of these extra door parts be spares? Perhaps that is what the '+' refers to!
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 11, 2020 21:27:21 GMT
The recording car of the TRV (so the one 73TS car) is actually certified for Network Rail running I believe. At least going by the information sticker on the end of the recording car. Also one of the reasons its formed with Buckeye couplers and train/main line hoses on the ends. Perhaps not quite on topic for this thread but directly related to this specific item of rolling stock I offer some photos taken at the 1980 Ilford depot open day. But are the wagons on either side mainline or LU?
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Post by jimbo on Aug 12, 2020 1:19:15 GMT
The recording car of the TRV (so the one 73TS car) is actually certified for Network Rail running I believe. At least going by the information sticker on the end of the recording car. Also one of the reasons its formed with Buckeye couplers and train/main line hoses on the ends. Perhaps not quite on topic for this thread but directly related to this specific item of rolling stock I offer some photos taken at the 1980 Ilford depot open day. But are the wagons on either side mainline or LU? RW819 near camera is 1986 Procor built rail wagon with buckeye coupler 20 tonnes capacity, one of 26 such in the LU Engineer's fleet according to my 1997 edition of Brian Hardy's "LU Rolling Stock" book. So query 1980 open day? Note selection of line diagrams within car! Thanks for photos.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 12, 2020 8:36:11 GMT
Ilford Open Day was in 1989 - my father has photos of some the stock on display there too. (I was too young to hold a camera the right way around at the time, but i was there!)
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Post by jimbo on Aug 13, 2020 4:12:10 GMT
I'm looking forward to seeing what the new trains will be like and what design they go along with. I hope they use the design from the 2014 concept video. It had that 'classic' LU design but more modern. Will the new Piccadilly line trains have luggage space for people going to/from Heathrow? Siemens are contracted to follow the 2014 concept design, or explain why not! We saw updated concept images at the end of 2019, but I can't find them now! (They were in the January 2020 Underground News.) The colour scheme now uses blue grab rails and seating, which looks a lot brighter. They said the suggested 1938 style colour scheme did not meet RVAR requirements for colour contrast, if I recall correctly. The new Picc and Bakerloo trains will be inter-changable, unlike the later planned Central & W&C builds. Luggage racks were part of the prototype 1973TS refurbishment, but considered a waste of space except on Heathrow runs, so general purpose open space is preferred.
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Post by revupminster on Aug 13, 2020 6:17:52 GMT
When the new Central line prototypes Red, Blue, and Green were put on public display. The decision was made to take all the bad parts of the prototypes into the production model. I think they were only interested in what was under the floor and not what the public had to use. Probably be the same with the new trains.
Note no drivers door.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 13, 2020 10:14:04 GMT
Yes, there was a lot to be desired in terms of how they came to the final design of the 1992 stock.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 13, 2020 11:14:15 GMT
Is there any further news about how they intend to solve the air conditioning problem on the new low level stock?
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Post by Chris M on Aug 13, 2020 11:41:34 GMT
Is there any further news about how they intend to solve the air conditioning problem on the new low level stock? Note the video says "air cooled" not "air conditioned"
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Post by revupminster on Aug 13, 2020 11:52:22 GMT
I think the original D stock had air conditioning but it just sucked it tunnel dust and blocked the filters on the first trip. The air conditioning became windows modified to have opening fan lights.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 13, 2020 12:18:58 GMT
I think the original D stock had air conditioning but it just sucked it tunnel dust and blocked the filters on the first trip. The air conditioning became windows modified to have opening fan lights. D Stock didn’t have air conditioning, only one C Stock car 6513 was trial fitted.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 13, 2020 12:24:50 GMT
Is there any further news about how they intend to solve the air conditioning problem on the new low level stock? Note the video says "air cooled" not "air conditioned" Which means precisely nothing. Unless you're [e.g.] underwater, all humans are 'air cooled' (yes, for the pedants, if you're [e.g.] standing in front of a blower heater, the cooling can be negative). Since it's the hot air in the tunnels that is the root of the problem, it's unclear where they're going to get cool air from (apart from an aircon unit ). Perhaps they are counting on it being hot enough for everybody to be sweating profusely, and providing extremely powerful fans. Technically, that would constitute 'air cooling'.
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