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Post by d7666 on Feb 12, 2024 15:56:07 GMT
The Central Line planned 11-car articulated trains will feature only 12 bogies compared with the current 8-car trains with 16 bogies, so a 25% weight saving on bogies! That will provide quite a power saving. Now that the prototype new train is designed built and under test, would be interesting if we had any energy use/efficiency stats (akin to the "urban cycle" MPG test of a car) to enable a comparison with the current stocks ie if they were replaced with a "like for like" service pattern/timetable. Is it then reasonable to assume/believe that circa 80% of that net energy consumed by a train (allowing credits for regen energy) results in some form of heat generated? Certainly must know by now the energy consumption of the Air Con/cooling system (When running at max capacity) of the new train. All of this on energy consumption and/or savings and/or auxiliaries, and impact on trackside DC kit, will have been done by simulation before they even start cutting metal; indeed, much of it is probably in the requirements at ITT and specified to be in the suppliers tender response before tender won and order placed. It always appears to come as a surprise to many that we do not do things like order new trains - or new anythings - then figure out the problems. We don't build a train with air-con then wonder if it works. There are all sorts of international and national and UIC and EN standards etc, some legislated for, some recommended practice,to cover all this. The quote " .............. as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. ...... " seems to apply. LU knows the known knowns and the known unknowns; what /does/ happen is the unknown unknowns, and, truly, something is included in original scope and ITT, then the spreadsheet cell pushing mandarins cut into action and cut out or descope thence introduce so called "new" problems that would have been eliminated as a known known before they opened excel. One also has to remember a lot of all this is clouded in contractual secrecy. What often happens is an allegedly "new" unknown eventually appears to those not in the secret circle. This business about having to trim Picc. platform edges I will say 99.99% certainty was a project known - it is when it leaks out to a wider audience the speculation and adverse comment appears as if it was an unknown. |
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Post by Chris W on Feb 14, 2024 19:21:36 GMT
LU knows the known knowns and the known unknowns; what /does/ happen is the unknown unknowns, and, truly, something is included in original scope and ITT, then the spreadsheet cell pushing mandarins cut into action and cut out or descope thence introduce so called "new" problems that would have been eliminated as a known known before they opened excel. One also has to remember a lot of all this is clouded in contractual secrecy. What often happens is an allegedly "new" unknown eventually appears to those not in the secret circle. This business about having to trim Picc. platform edges I will say 99.99% certainty was a project known - it is when it leaks out to a wider audience the speculation and adverse comment appears as if it was an unknown. Much of this will be discovered this Summer onwards, when the first train is due to be delivered to LU for testing purposes  Whilst the first couple of pre-prodction Victoria Line 09TS units were scrapped and new examples built (it was found to be more cost effective based upon the high number of modifications needed), currently Siemens Mobility doesn't expect any pre-productions trains to need replacing. [LU World Special: Rail Express - January 2024] |
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Post by ijmad on Feb 16, 2024 13:01:32 GMT
One also has to remember a lot of all this is clouded in contractual secrecy. What often happens is an allegedly "new" unknown eventually appears to those not in the secret circle. This business about having to trim Picc. platform edges I will say 99.99% certainty was a project known - it is when it leaks out to a wider audience the speculation and adverse comment appears as if it was an unknown. You're probably right although this sort of thing does go wrong from time to time. "Nearly 2,000 new trains ordered by the national railroad, SNCF, are too wide for many French railroad stations. So to accommodate the new trains, hundreds of platforms at railroad stations will have to reconfigured."And this was a genuine mistake. Not saying that' what's happened here, mind, just saying it wouldn't be unprecedented. |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 17, 2024 11:16:22 GMT
"Nearly 2,000 new trains ordered by the national railroad, SNCF, are too wide for many French railroad stations. So to accommodate the new trains, hundreds of platforms at railroad stations will have to reconfigured." I'm sure this has happened before - didn't the slightly longer 1973ts tube cars have some gauging issues when brand new? (caused by sharp curves in tunnels?) And .... well before any of us here were around, there was the issue of the Central London Railway electric locomotives being too tall for the tunnels!! |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Feb 17, 2024 12:43:52 GMT
I thought the problem with the locos was too much unsprung weight causing bad vibration to surface buildings.
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Post by burkitt on Feb 17, 2024 19:07:07 GMT
The excess height resulted in reconstruction of both track and locos which reduced the effect of the suspension and exacerbated the issues caused by the weight.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 17, 2024 23:13:20 GMT
"Nearly 2,000 new trains ordered by the national railroad, SNCF, are too wide for many French railroad stations. So to accommodate the new trains, hundreds of platforms at railroad stations will have to reconfigured." I'm sure this has happened before... Yes: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64717605 |
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Post by jetblast787 on Feb 19, 2024 0:36:15 GMT
One also has to remember a lot of all this is clouded in contractual secrecy. What often happens is an allegedly "new" unknown eventually appears to those not in the secret circle. This business about having to trim Picc. platform edges I will say 99.99% certainty was a project known - it is when it leaks out to a wider audience the speculation and adverse comment appears as if it was an unknown. As someone who is directly working on this package of works, I can safely say that yes, it has been something we've been working on for the past few years that will come to fruition soon. I'm not going to go into details for obvious reasons, however, there is a presentation in the public domain about this at the Institution of Civil Engineers in 2022 which highlights the challenges we're working to resolve |
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Post by xtmw on Apr 12, 2024 21:13:35 GMT
What's the plan with the NTFL? When the time comes for the Jubilee and Northern lines, will they be replaced with the NTFL? Is the plan to standardise fleet across the entire network? (except for SSR lines)
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Post by jimbo on Apr 13, 2024 0:02:07 GMT
The plan for the past ten years was to buy a fleet of standard design for four lines, with Siemens winning the contract. Money was only available for the Piccadilly Line order, with options remaining for the others. The current hope is for funding for the Bakerloo Line but, with the Central Line fleet upgrade now expected to last 15 years, it is likely the contract will expire before a further order is made. New tenders will need to be called for other lines, which may propose alternate layouts and designs. Likely the intention will be to again spread the next standard design over a number of lines.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 16, 2024 20:43:59 GMT
The pre-production trains are expected in London mid-year, last I heard. Any news of them preparing for the move? Will they be based at Ruislip depot? What are they going to be doing over the next 12 months before entry into service?
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Post by jetblast787 on Apr 17, 2024 11:37:50 GMT
The pre-production trains are expected in London mid-year, last I heard. Any news of them preparing for the move? Will they be based at Ruislip depot? What are they going to be doing over the next 12 months before entry into service? Short answer: Testing and commissioning Longer answer: There's is a lot of infrastructure work being completed to enable the passage of the new train as well as testing. The most important interface in any railway is the interface between the train and passengers, the PTI, hence there will be a large focus to ensure the railway is as safe as possible before the train is put into service. Alongside that there will be driver training and familiarisation.
The train will be delivered to Ruislip as its the only convenient location to transfer from NR land, most likely in one piece given the articulated nature of the train.
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Post by starlight73 on Apr 29, 2024 19:48:03 GMT
Long grey boards that say “NOT IN USE” have appeared at some Piccadilly line stations. These might be stopping marker boards for the 2024 stock?  |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 29, 2024 19:55:06 GMT
They are.
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Post by jimbo on May 20, 2024 20:09:55 GMT
Request ID: FOI-0261-2425, Date published: 20 May 2024 link |
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Post by jimbo on Jun 18, 2024 22:38:09 GMT
TfL Investment programme report Quarter 4 2023/24 (10 December 2023 to 31 March 2024)
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Post by jimbo on Jun 20, 2024 17:02:36 GMT
TfL Investment programme report Quarter 4 2023/24 (10 December 2023 to 31 March 2024) Sounds like very early stage of work on two large depots. The first trains arrive in a few months. Do we know when the fleet starts to arrive? The first production train? |
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Post by starlight73 on Jun 20, 2024 18:45:00 GMT
They’re due to enter passenger service in 2025, so I guess driver training would need to start late in this year, or possibly early next year? If so, the fleet would need to start arriving probably around the same time/earlier
We’d probably see a 3rd train being tested in Germany before more trains are despatched here? (But I don’t know, this is just guessing)
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Post by jimbo on Jun 21, 2024 2:08:52 GMT
I think the 2025 planned entry to passenger service is like the 2023 entry to service of the first CLIP train. One of the first two pre-production trains will be tried with the public after a year of successful trials. This might show up faults like door problems when the public obstruct them, seating faults or problem handrails, which unlimited testing will not reveal. Volume production may not commence for another six months or so, as with the 2009 tube stock build. But sufficient trains should be available to replace all old ones and introduce 27tph service by May 2027, a goal claimed as still on target. The current order is sufficient for 30tph with new signalling, so there will be a few spare trains available until that can be done. Maybe sufficient to relieve the Bakerloo Line until their train order is built?
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Post by jimbo on Jun 21, 2024 12:19:31 GMT
Malcolm Dobell confirms that the new trains have a battery ‘get to the next station’ facility which was part of the original design brief.
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 21, 2024 13:33:54 GMT
A small battery should also help in snowy / icy winters, keeping the train going even if the electric rails are covered in compacted snow / sheet ice.
The added safety side-effect is that if trains are kept moving there will be less desire / chance of passengers self-evacuating the train and walking along tracks with energised juice rail(s). Maybe this is less of an issue on the Underground but it has happened on the Southern Electric network.
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Post by xtmw on Jun 21, 2024 13:42:21 GMT
If I'm reading this correctly - this could be the end to gapped trains, assuming all is well with the battery?
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Post by jimbo on Jun 21, 2024 19:43:18 GMT
Could simplify juice rail layouts in depots? Eliminate overhead leads?
Should this be retro-fitted on other lines for safety, to avoid crowded trains stuck in tunnels for some time due to loss of traction power? Probably needs to prove itself on Picc first.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 21, 2024 21:19:06 GMT
Hope they look after batteries better than they did on older stock,had 62TS at Hainault with no battery output when MA tripped,when we opened the batteries no water and buckled plates.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 15, 2024 5:29:24 GMT
I think the plan for the Waterloo & City was to have another shut down whilst the line was prepared for its new trains. There was talk of a new track layout for Waterloo Depot. Does anyone know what this would involve? I believe the current maintenance building can only lift a two-car unit due to roof height, but the new train design will require the whole train to be lifted. How will that be overcome? And the current cars went in and out one at a time through the hatch access, but they all stood on their own wheels. How would the new train achieve delivery, presumably five cars long with the even-number cars having no wheels!
I suppose Siemens build them as individual cars before bringing them together as a train, so how do they handle that? Do the wheel-less cars have folding legs, as semitrailers, caravans, etc.? If they were built on accommodation bogies, those would be in the way when the train comes together. This is new to LU, but not to Siemens with their tram fleets.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 15, 2024 23:50:39 GMT
I'm sure being able to physically get the trains onto the line will be a design requirement for W&C stock. There will likely be occasions when trains need to be split in the depot so there will be some way of supporting the trailer cars when that happens - presumably something similar to how conventional cars are supported when bogies are removed.
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Post by brigham on Jul 16, 2024 7:29:12 GMT
Could simplify juice rail layouts in depots? Eliminate overhead leads? Should this be retro-fitted on other lines for safety, to avoid crowded trains stuck in tunnels for some time due to loss of traction power? Probably needs to prove itself on Picc first. It's well-known trolleybus technology. It doesn't need to prove itself. |
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gefw
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Post by gefw on Jul 16, 2024 8:40:06 GMT
I'm sure being able to physically get the trains onto the line will be a design requirement for W&C stock. There will likely be occasions when trains need to be split in the depot so there will be some way of supporting the trailer cars when that happens - presumably something similar to how conventional cars are supported when bogies are removed. I thought the idea was that the new tube for london stock was suitable for all these lines - so these requirements/ features will hopefully already be incorporated (and already been "ticked off" by the project team as part of design reviews/verification) |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 16, 2024 8:59:23 GMT
Could simplify juice rail layouts in depots? Eliminate overhead leads? Should this be retro-fitted on other lines for safety, to avoid crowded trains stuck in tunnels for some time due to loss of traction power? Probably needs to prove itself on Picc first. It's well-known trolleybus technology. It doesn't need to prove itself. Trolleybuses could move a short distance on battery power near a century back, to the kerb or within the depot. Getting a fully loaded train to the next station must be more challenging, not having been attempted until now. |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 16, 2024 9:09:49 GMT
I'm sure being able to physically get the trains onto the line will be a design requirement for W&C stock. There will likely be occasions when trains need to be split in the depot so there will be some way of supporting the trailer cars when that happens - presumably something similar to how conventional cars are supported when bogies are removed. I thought the idea was that the new tube for london stock was suitable for all these lines - so these requirements/ features will hopefully already be incorporated (and already been "ticked off" by the project team as part of design reviews/verification) Whilst the idea is a standard design for four lines, they will each be custom adapted to their own line, and not be interchangeable. Not only will Central Line trains have two cars more than Piccadilly Line trains, but their cab cars will be a different length to fill current platforms. The Bakerloo Line version must meet Network Rail requirements to work north of Queen's Park. The W. & City version will only have three wheeled cars to carry the equipment spread over five cars on the Piccadilly Line. etc. etc. The Picc & Bakerloo depots are to be reconstructed to suit the new trains, so presumably Waterloo depot will be similarly modified within the restrictions of its current site. |
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