North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Apr 18, 2020 1:33:40 GMT
Having said that, is it definitely the case that they’re still trying to run the 4-minute service? At the point when I left I don’t think anyone knew for sure one way or other. My post was based on a company wide email sent out by Nick Dent, Director of Line Operations, at approx 7.30pm last night. It’ll be in your company email inbox....... I’ve seen the bulletin and the FAQ that came with it (which seems more concerned with social distancing) but unless I’ve missed something it doesn’t state if the timetables now proposed are the same as those released last month. The conversations I heard suggested the timetables are, but I’ve seen nothing official one way or other. There’s no doubt that a proper timetable is the way to be going, just unfortunate they’ve thus far made such a mess of doing it... As an aside, I was wondering to myself which crew depots must be worst in terms of effort required to run the current special service. Golders Green and Wembley Park must be in with a shout simply on number of trains running and general awkwardness. At the other end of the extreme I’d imagine Rickmansworth is fairly straightforward. I’m not so much thinking in terms of work the crews do, but more in terms of effort required to implement, monitor, run and close it.
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Post by PiccNT on Apr 18, 2020 10:04:04 GMT
We've seen at Cockfosters the draft Covid-19 duties and on the basis that nothing else has been produced and there is nothing on the establishment planning SharePoint site, we can only assume that these are the planned duties as it would seem unlikely that a new set of duties can be produced that could be introduced in a week's time.
As an example, on the Monday to Thursday schedule, we have 80 duties. 37 of these are spares with a further 9 spare for part of their duty. There is also a fair amount of travelling on the cushions both to pick up the next train or to travel back and in some cases, travelling to Acton Town to pick up the first train.
Now, we have permission to travel in the rear cab but not sure how this will work in practice. When we hand over the train and travel back, we will have to walk back to the other end of the train should there be an issue with social distancing in the public cars.
Increasing the service overall at the moment seems unnecessary but easier from a management point of view. Last night for instance, I came back from Heathrow T4 to Cockfosters and apart from picking up a member of staff that travelled from Arnos Grove to Oakwood, there was nobody else.
It would not surprise me if this didn't go ahead as planned. Far too many people at the depot, too many at the meal relief points and far too many trains, at this point, for the few customers we have travelling.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 18, 2020 10:11:00 GMT
We've seen at Cockfosters the draft Covid-19 duties and on the basis that nothing else has been produced and there is nothing on the establishment planning SharePoint site, we can only assume that these are the planned duties as it would seem unlikely that a new set of duties can be produced that could be introduced in a week's time. As an example, on the Monday to Thursday schedule, we have 80 duties. 37 of these are spares with a further 9 spare for part of their duty. There is also a fair amount of travelling on the cushions both to pick up the next train or to travel back and in some cases, travelling to Acton Town to pick up the first train. Now, we have permission to travel in the rear cab but not sure how this will work in practice. When we hand over the train and travel back, we will have to walk back to the other end of the train should there be an issue with social distancing in the public cars. Increasing the service overall at the moment seems unnecessary but easier from a management point of view. Last night for instance, I came back from Heathrow T4 to Cockfosters and apart from picking up a member of staff that travelled from Arnos Grove to Oakwood, there was nobody else. It would not surprise me if this didn't go ahead as planned. Far too many people at the depot, too many at the meal relief points and far too many trains, at this point, for the few customers we have travelling. From ASLEF THSC 26032 26th March 2020 "Travelling in the Rear Cab" It doesn't say what to do if you are travelling on the cushions for meal relief or at the end of your duty. This could be fun...
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Post by nig on Apr 18, 2020 10:37:59 GMT
My post was based on a company wide email sent out by Nick Dent, Director of Line Operations, at approx 7.30pm last night. It’ll be in your company email inbox....... I’ve seen the bulletin and the FAQ that came with it (which seems more concerned with social distancing) but unless I’ve missed something it doesn’t state if the timetables now proposed are the same as those released last month. The conversations I heard suggested the timetables are, but I’ve seen nothing official one way or other. There’s no doubt that a proper timetable is the way to be going, just unfortunate they’ve thus far made such a mess of doing it... As an aside, I was wondering to myself which crew depots must be worst in terms of effort required to run the current special service. Golders Green and Wembley Park must be in with a shout simply on number of trains running and general awkwardness. At the other end of the extreme I’d imagine Rickmansworth is fairly straightforward. I’m not so much thinking in terms of work the crews do, but more in terms of effort required to implement, monitor, run and close it. It does say in email revised covid-19 timetables so there should be changes to what was released last month what these changes are we will have to wait and see
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Post by AndrewS on Apr 18, 2020 11:19:55 GMT
The Greater London Authority Act 1999 gives the Mayor limited powers which is why Sadiq Khan has to ask the government to make wearing masks compulsory on public transport rather than imposing it himself. The government are still following the WHO recommendations that masks are not essential but are constantly "reviewing the evidence". If they do make wearing masks compulsory then they're going to have to make supplies available to all operational transport staff (not just TfL) otherwise we could end up with the ridiculous situation where staff can't get to work. As others have pointed out the NHS are struggling to get supplies so where TfL, etc. are supposed to get them is anybody's guess. Whoever mandates it I can't see this working in practice. Sneezing when wearing one (it's hay fever time for a start) then either sitting with a mask full of snot or pulling it off to wipe it out really doesn't bear thinking about. The temptation to pull it off to sneeze or cough will be too much for many, rather defeating the point. I'm starting to think that heavy use of LU or public transport more generally for many months yet is unlikely.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Apr 18, 2020 11:51:34 GMT
The Greater London Authority Act 1999 gives the Mayor limited powers which is why Sadiq Khan has to ask the government to make wearing masks compulsory on public transport rather than imposing it himself. The government are still following the WHO recommendations that masks are not essential but are constantly "reviewing the evidence". If they do make wearing masks compulsory then they're going to have to make supplies available to all operational transport staff (not just TfL) otherwise we could end up with the ridiculous situation where staff can't get to work. As others have pointed out the NHS are struggling to get supplies so where TfL, etc. are supposed to get them is anybody's guess. Whoever mandates it I can't see this working in practice. Sneezing when wearing one (it's hay fever time for a start) then either sitting with a mask full of snot or pulling it off to wipe it out really doesn't bear thinking about. The temptation to pull it off to sneeze or cough will be too much for many, rather defeating the point. I'm starting to think that heavy use of LU or public transport more generally for many months yet is unlikely. Yes realistically I think this is probably going to turn out to be correct. Unless something materially changes there’s going to be a need to keep usage artificially low, which in practice is going to mean essential journeys only. It’s likely the definition of an essential journey won’t be as strict as it is at this moment, however casual use of the Underground is indeed looking likely to be subject to restriction for some time.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 18, 2020 12:05:44 GMT
Whoever mandates it I can't see this working in practice. Sneezing when wearing one (it's hay fever time for a start) then either sitting with a mask full of snot or pulling it off to wipe it out really doesn't bear thinking about. The temptation to pull it off to sneeze or cough will be too much for many, rather defeating the point. I'm starting to think that heavy use of LU or public transport more generally for many months yet is unlikely. Yes realistically I think this is probably going to turn out to be correct. Unless something materially changes there’s going to be a need to keep usage artificially low, which in practice is going to mean essential journeys only. It’s likely the definition of an essential journey won’t be as strict as it is at this moment, however casual use of the Underground is indeed looking likely to be subject to restriction for some time. The problem with this is that it is very unlikely that the furlough scheme will continue beyond the end of June (having already been extended once), so the majority of the London workforce will be back after this. Even setting aside the fact that some companies will still enable a greater proportion to work from home, you would still be looking at the underground being busy again. I don't suppose, however, that there will be a need for non-commuting use, as it is likely that tourist attractions, restaurants and bars will open much later.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Apr 18, 2020 12:15:03 GMT
Yes realistically I think this is probably going to turn out to be correct. Unless something materially changes there’s going to be a need to keep usage artificially low, which in practice is going to mean essential journeys only. It’s likely the definition of an essential journey won’t be as strict as it is at this moment, however casual use of the Underground is indeed looking likely to be subject to restriction for some time. The problem with this is that it is very unlikely that the furlough scheme will continue beyond the end of June (having already been extended once), so the majority of the London workforce will be back after this. Even setting aside the fact that some companies will still enable a greater proportion to work from home, you would still be looking at the underground being busy again. I don't suppose, however, that there will be a need for non-commuting use, as it is likely that tourist attractions, restaurants and bars will open much later. Yes I’d guess that the first step will be to get some of the less essential workers back to work, whilst still maintaining working from home for those who can continue to do it productively. This is going to place a major strain on the service at certain times of day, and some serious thought will need to be given to how it can be achieved, and at the same time continuing to ensure key workers can travel safely. Given the mess LU have made with the temporary timetables, it doesn’t look promising that all this is going to be able to be neatly reconciled. If people are going to still be arriving at work in clusters around defined times then for example it might be preferable to try to flood the railway with trains at certain times and thin things out further at other times, rather than going for a blanket interval. I think it’s fair to say that all this is going to prove catastrophic for TFL’s finances. Whilst TFL will no doubt be high on the government’s priority list, I’d say it’s now inevitable that spending is going to have to be radically pared back. Bets now on for how long the 72 stock or Piccadilly Line signalling will last! ;-)
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 18, 2020 12:24:33 GMT
Isn't that what we usually do anyway, run as many trains as we possibly can during the peak then reduce the number in the off peak?
I've had some ludicrous exchanges on Twitter with people who seem to think that if we cancelled off peak trains we could run more during the peak without realising that the drivers on the trains in off peak are also driving trains during the peak. We can't drive two trains at once!
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North End
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Post by North End on Apr 18, 2020 12:34:47 GMT
Isn't that what we usually do anyway, run as many trains as we possibly can during the peak then reduce the number in the off peak? I've had some ludicrous exchanges on Twitter with people who seem to think that if we cancelled off peak trains we could run more during the peak without realising that the drivers on the trains in off peak are also driving trains during the peak. We can't drive two trains at once! I think there would be scope to pare back the service over the midday period and during the mid to late evening without having much ill effect, as we have some pretty empty trains running around at these times now and in the absence of leisure use there isn’t going to be much night-economy usage for some time. I’m not saying cancel off-peak trains, but there’s no need for a 4-minute service at 2300. Likewise there may be scope for looking whether there needs to be a full end-to-end service everywhere, or would resources be better concentrated on certain sections leaving extremes with a skeleton service?
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Post by superteacher on Apr 18, 2020 12:42:54 GMT
Isn't that what we usually do anyway, run as many trains as we possibly can during the peak then reduce the number in the off peak? I've had some ludicrous exchanges on Twitter with people who seem to think that if we cancelled off peak trains we could run more during the peak without realising that the drivers on the trains in off peak are also driving trains during the peak. We can't drive two trains at once! I think there would be scope to pare back the service over the midday period and during the mid to late evening without having much ill effect, as we have some pretty empty trains running around at these times now and in the absence of leisure use there isn’t going to be much night-economy usage for some time. I’m not saying cancel off-peak trains, but there’s no need for a 4-minute service at 2300. Likewise there may be scope for looking whether there needs to be a full end-to-end service everywhere, or would resources be better concentrated on certain sections leaving extremes with a skeleton service? Rather like the Met used to back in the day. I think it was something like 16 X 4 car trains in the off peak, ramping up to 50 X 8 in the peaks! The A stock led a charmed life in their earlier days!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 18, 2020 12:48:27 GMT
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Apr 18, 2020 12:56:27 GMT
This situation is just so completely avoidable. It feels like a panic response by a management who just don’t have a handle on what’s happening on the ground. Putting the circulars out on a Friday evening, almost like toss the petrol on the fire and then run away. Seriously, if nothing has been altered since first time round then there’s no chance of these timetables coming in, IMO. Last time it was scotched by pretty much everyone involved in operating the service.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 18, 2020 13:41:29 GMT
As ASLEF said TfL increasing the service is linked to a bail out from the Treasury so we can assume that if they don't bring in the timetables they don't get the money. It doesn't seem to matter whether the service is sustainable or even possible, just as long as they get paid.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Apr 18, 2020 14:39:31 GMT
As ASLEF said TfL increasing the service is linked to a bail out from the Treasury so we can assume that if they don't bring in the timetables they don't get the money. It doesn't seem to matter whether the service is sustainable or even possible, just as long as they get paid. What a mess. It shouldn't have been difficult for all stakeholders to sit down and devise something workable.
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rincew1nd
Administrator
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 18, 2020 15:53:05 GMT
It feels like a panic response by a management who just don’t have a handle on what’s happening on the ground. Putting the circulars out on a Friday evening, almost like toss the petrol on the fire and then run away. NHS England did pretty much the same thing before Easter: instructing GP surgeries and Community Pharmacies to be open on Good Friday and Easter Monday, but making the announcement at 3pm on the Friday beforehand.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 18, 2020 15:58:35 GMT
Maybe they want the service levels ramped up so that the system is ready for when they start relaxing some of the lockdown measures? I know it’s shocking to contemplate, but are they actually planning ahead? 😋
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Apr 18, 2020 16:51:06 GMT
Maybe they want the service levels ramped up so that the system is ready for when they start relaxing some of the lockdown measures? I know it’s shocking to contemplate, but are they actually planning ahead? 😋 Yes it's quite possible, however no point in planning something that you simply don't have the resources available to deliver.
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hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
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Post by hobbayne on Apr 18, 2020 20:49:31 GMT
I believe that it is illegal to take strike action during times of national crisis. LUL have the unions over a barrel.
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North End
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Post by North End on Apr 18, 2020 21:51:26 GMT
I believe that it is illegal to take strike action during times of national crisis. LUL have the unions over a barrel. To be fair I don’t think either union would wish to strike at the moment, no one would wish to see that happen. The problem is LU’s own making, trying to run a timetable for which they simply don’t have the numbers of people available to cover all the duties. It wasn’t the unions that scotched it last time, it was the depot managements who took one look at what was planned, did the sums, and concluded it simply wasn’t viable. Speaking only for my local area I don’t think the sums would be much different now to what they were then, the only thing could be if they offer full-time secondments to night tube drivers, but this seems to have gone quiet unless anyone knows different. If LU want their timetables then they can have them, and time will tell what will happen. However if we get back to the stage that too much juggling is required to run the service then they will fall flat very quickly. Timetables are absolutely the right way to go, but there needs to be some realism - I can’t help but think there’s a there-way joust going on between Khan, Hancock and LU management, and such political games are just what isn’t needed.
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hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
Posts: 516
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Post by hobbayne on Apr 18, 2020 22:27:56 GMT
On the Central Line they have a lot of traveling on the cushions, Remote meal reliefs and finishing at remote depots instead of our own. On top of the shortage of drivers they want us to share staff taxis.
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paulsw2
My Train Runs For Those Who Wait Not Wait For Those That Run
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Post by paulsw2 on Apr 19, 2020 3:23:31 GMT
I believe that it is illegal to take strike action during times of national crisis. LUL have the unions over a barrel. But staff have the right to withdraw from unsafe working conditions (social distancing and overcrowding levels) I have been working consistently but if these new schedules are imposed I will be thinking is it safe for me to continue as I will NOT travel on the cushions between pick ups and if there is not enough room to social distance at work
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Post by philthetube on Apr 19, 2020 3:26:18 GMT
I believe that it is illegal to take strike action during times of national crisis. LUL have the unions over a barrel. It would not be strike action to insist on following the government rules on social distancing
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 19, 2020 7:20:45 GMT
Maybe they want the service levels ramped up so that the system is ready for when they start relaxing some of the lockdown measures? I know it’s shocking to contemplate, but are they actually planning ahead? 😋 The timetable increasing the service levels was meant to come in two weeks ago, on Thursday the lockdown was extended for three weeks. This is nothing to do with being prepared for relaxing the lockdown, this is simply to get money from the government For a strike to be legal it has to have a ballot, Civica Election Services (formerly Electoral Reform Services) have furloughed their staff so there won't be any ballots until after the lockdown is relaxed. Regardless under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 anyone can refuse to work if they are being asked to work in an environment that represents a threat of ‘serious or imminent danger’ to their safety.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 19, 2020 9:29:54 GMT
Maybe they want the service levels ramped up so that the system is ready for when they start relaxing some of the lockdown measures? I know it’s shocking to contemplate, but are they actually planning ahead? 😋 The timetable increasing the service levels was meant to come in two weeks ago, on Thursday the lockdown was extended for three weeks. This is nothing to do with being prepared for relaxing the lockdown, this is simply to get money from the government For a strike to be legal it has to have a ballot, Civica Election Services (formerly Electoral Reform Services) have furloughed their staff so there won't be any ballots until after the lockdown is relaxed. Regardless under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 anyone can refuse to work if they are being asked to work in an environment that represents a threat of ‘serious or imminent danger’ to their safety. My post was slightly tongue-in-cheek - but one day, you never know, there may be a return to forward, strategic planning. We live In hope.
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Post by punkman on Apr 20, 2020 8:01:55 GMT
The timetable increasing the service levels was meant to come in two weeks ago, on Thursday the lockdown was extended for three weeks. This is nothing to do with being prepared for relaxing the lockdown, this is simply to get money from the government For a strike to be legal it has to have a ballot, Civica Election Services (formerly Electoral Reform Services) have furloughed their staff so there won't be any ballots until after the lockdown is relaxed. Regardless under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 anyone can refuse to work if they are being asked to work in an environment that represents a threat of ‘serious or imminent danger’ to their safety. My post was slightly tongue-in-cheek - but one day, you never know, there may be a return to forward, strategic planning. We live In hope. Although to be fair this WAS mentioned in the notice sent out. I don't have access to it now but there was a paragraph saying something along the lines of needing to be ready for when restrictions start to be lifted.
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 20, 2020 10:13:26 GMT
I strongly suspect that restrictions will start to be lifted at the end of this second three week period, but it will be a staged process. How I respond remains to be seen - it may be that leisure travel will still be discouraged.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Apr 20, 2020 10:56:55 GMT
I strongly suspect that restrictions will start to be lifted at the end of this second three week period, but it will be a staged process. How I respond remains to be seen - it may be that leisure travel will still be discouraged. I think it’s highly likely there will be restrictions on public transport use for some time to come. Whilst we have the combination of reduced capacity and social distancing then some form of restriction is unavoidable. How it will be laid out and enforced is another matter of course. Enforcement is not a problem for which an easy solution is going to be found, but equally self-enforcement is unlikely to be enough.
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Post by PiccNT on Apr 20, 2020 12:11:18 GMT
The new duties commencing next Sunday have now been published on the SharePoint site so at the moment it looks like it's going ahead. For all of the reasons mentioned above over the past few days, it seems crazy to go from a 15 minute service to a 4 minute service. Although we are running an emergency timetable, it isn't too complicated to assign 6 members of staff to 6 trains a few times a day. Increasing it by one or two shouldn't be an insurmountable problem but moving to the new Covid-19 timetable will, according to my crystal ball, be a nightmare.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 20, 2020 16:39:44 GMT
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